Author Topic: wireless networking and wifi printer help (Read 42210 times)

40hz · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2015, 09:26 PM »

If I can create an adhoc wired 'network' so easily, then why is a wireless solution so much different. The comm's should be the same, so we're only talking about the means of transmission (is landline v mobile telephony is an appropriate analogy?)
-Target (January 21, 2015, 09:08 PM)

Ad hoc was originally intended to be a means of doing rudimentary file sharing between PCs. A way to avoid sneaker-netting. Sort of like the basic capabilities in the far more sophisticted AppleTalk sharing services running on Macs. It wasn't intended to replace a traditional LAN. And it especially was never intended to be used as a router. That was supposed to be handled by internet connection sharing where one PC in your home network shared its internet connection with all the other PCs. So once again, one PC becomes the gateway of last resort as SJ put it.

Also ad hoc networking is a topology. Ad hoc networking can be done in a number of ways. It's not dependent on specific hardware per se. And it doesn't need a wireless capability to make it work. You could do an ad hoc network with a crossover cable and two NICs. Or with multiple PCs, cables, and a dumb network hub or switch - no router required. That's how it used to be done before wifi came out. Using a wifi connection just makes it much more convenient.

Target · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2015, 10:06 PM »

Also ad hoc networking is a topology. Ad hoc networking can be done in a number of ways. It's not dependent on specific hardware per se. And it doesn't need a wireless capability to make it work. You could do an ad hoc network with a crossover cable and two NICs. Or with multiple PCs, cables, and a dumb network hub or switch - no router required. That's how it used to be done before wifi came out.
-40hz (January 21, 2015, 09:26 PM)

which was the point I was trying to make

Using a wifi connection just makes it much more convenient.

except it apparently doesn't

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2015, 06:56 AM »

Also ad hoc networking is a topology. Ad hoc networking can be done in a number of ways. It's not dependent on specific hardware per se. And it doesn't need a wireless capability to make it work. You could do an ad hoc network with a crossover cable and two NICs. Or with multiple PCs, cables, and a dumb network hub or switch - no router required. That's how it used to be done before wifi came out.
-40hz (January 21, 2015, 09:26 PM)

which was the point I was trying to make
-Target (January 21, 2015, 10:06 PM)

The catch is that with wireless Ad-Hoc networks you're stuck with a crossover cable style point to point connection, because there is no way to effect the switch/hub part of the equation. So three devices become the equivalent of trying to splice a third connector into the crossover cable, because nothing is available to handle the task of handling which packet goes where when.

Granted they are trying to create a working 3-way with the new Wireless Direct technology, but that's one of those things that's cool as hell when it works...but frequently doesn't - Because your particular stuff isn't compatible for reasons nobody can quite clearly define ... Because they're not quite done making up the %&^^$ spec just yet.

Using a wifi connection just makes it much more convenient.

except it apparently doesn't
-Target (January 21, 2015, 10:06 PM)

See, now you're starting to catch on..

40hz · « **Reply #28 on:** January 22, 2015, 07:46 AM »

[
Using a wifi connection just makes it much more convenient.

except it apparently doesn't
-Target (January 21, 2015, 10:06 PM)

Well...it's certainly more convenient than finding a crossover cable.

Or cables and a network hub (or switch) to plug things into.

Of course if you went through the trouble of getting a switch you could have just gotten yourself a router (which is actually a router with a built-in 4-port switch in most consumer-level units)...and since you've put that much money in, why not just get a wifi router (which is actually a wireless access point + a router + a network switch all in one convenient appliance) for not many dollars more and...be done with it?

That way, all you need to do is set your NIC to use DHCP and know the passkey for your wireless router. Bingo! You're in. And not just when you're at home. It works virtually everywhere else too. Because that's the way it's done. And it "just works." Most times at least. (The huge number of totally clueless people who routinely access networks and the Internet without firing up a single brain synapse are proof enough.)

Contrast that with setting static IP addresses...making sure there's no duplicate addresses in use...hoping Windows sorts out which member PC is going to be elected as the master browser for the P2P...and on and on. Then, you get to undo all of that and reconfigure your NIC back to DHCP when you want to use just about any other network out there.

So no...I really do think it's both easier and more convenient to use a router than an ad hoc network. Once a router is properly configured (not a difficult task even for a techno-weenie) you need to know nada to use it going forward. With an ad hoc, you actually do need to know something - and redo it any time you want to "net in" to something else.

The lowly 'router' is a lovely thing indeed.

techidave · « **Reply #29 on:** January 22, 2015, 08:29 AM »

My printer is the same model as Targets. ML-2835. As I remember (been a few months) during the setup, I couldn't get the wifi part to work like I think it should have.

Does it confuse the printer if it has both a wired and wifi connection? I have seen older HP lasers that could only have one connection.

40hz · « **Reply #30 on:** January 22, 2015, 08:50 AM »

It probably depends on the model and make. Good designs default to the fastest connection available. So if you cable in, it uses that connection instead of wifi.

My Brother multifunction now has a cable plugged into it. It seems fine with that. The original wifi setup is still in place too. If I pull the cable, wireless takes over seamlessly. And direct wireless printing works fine too.

I like having that separate direct print capability for when I have clients or friends over who need to print something from their phone or laptop. That way I don't have to give them access to my home or office network to do it.

YMMV

xtabber · « **Reply #31 on:** January 22, 2015, 10:09 AM »

My experience with low end Samsung printers is very discouraging, whereas I have had nothing but good results with Brother.

I have set up several technologically challenged elder relatives with inexpensive Brother wireless printers (e.g., 22780DW) and had no problems at all, unlike with the Samsungs that they replaced in some cases.

40hz · « **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2015, 11:59 AM »

My experience with low end Samsung printers is very discouraging, whereas I have had nothing but good results with Brother.

I have set up several technologically challenged elder relatives with inexpensive Brother wireless printers (e.g., 22780DW) and had no problems at all, unlike with the Samsungs that they replaced in some cases.

-xtabber (January 22, 2015, 10:09 AM)

@xtabber - That's good news to hear. This was my first Brother multifunction appliance purchase (for myself) and I was a little leery of dropping about $250 on this type of device.

However, one of my clients, who is an attorney (and probably one of the most tech savvy 'civilians' I know), swears by Brother printers. His blessing off on the model I eventually decided on (he owns two of them) was the tipping point for me to haul out some plastic and get one.

So far so good. I'm now on my second toner cartridge and it's working like a champ. Being monochrome laser, it's fairly economical too.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #33 on:** January 22, 2015, 12:04 PM »

Well...it's certainly more convenient than finding a crossover cable.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 07:46 AM)

While true, it's amazing how many things are auto crossing these days.

My experience with low end Samsung printers is very discouraging, whereas I have had nothing but good results with Brother.
-xtabber (January 22, 2015, 10:09 AM)

In the interest of clarity I'll mention that I'm the Network/Systems Admin for an HP Authorized Service Provider. However we do handle other brands, and service most any of them. One of the exceptions, is Samsung, which we jettisoned after less than a year. Brother we service, but do so infrequently as they are IMO designed to be disposable, and tend to be rather expensive to repair. On the plus side most do last a good while and will take a fair amount of beating.

Some of the business class HP's actually do have a complete wireless router built into them for handling NFC print jobs from mobile devices ... But I believe they tend to run north of $6,000.

40hz · « **Reply #34 on:** January 22, 2015, 12:15 PM »

Well...it's certainly more convenient than finding a crossover cable.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 07:46 AM)

While true, it's amazing how many things are auto crossing these days.

-Stoic Joker (January 22, 2015, 12:04 PM)

Yeah...Sometimes even intentionally!

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #35 on:** January 22, 2015, 12:17 PM »

I was a little leery of dropping about $250 on this type of device.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 11:59 AM)

Once the marketing types got ahold of the idea that MFP == Green, we were stuck with them.

Multi Function Printers were a hard sell initially because people were worried that everything would be gone if the one device broke. But their service life has proven much better that initially direly predicted ... mainly because you can actually break parts of it and the rest will keep going.

techidave · « **Reply #36 on:** January 22, 2015, 02:02 PM »

In our school, we have mostly Samsung lasers. Not the real expensive ones we use are about $300. They work well and we don't have to repair them Unlike a couple of HP printers that need feed rollers in them all the time.

40hz · « **Reply #37 on:** January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM »

My experience with HP is to stick to the real business class products and you'll be fine. T'was a time when that was all they sold, so it was a no-brainer going with HP. The old Laserjets (II/3/4/5/81xx/85xx, etc.) were built like tanks and un-killable. And they were repairable (often even field repairable) if anything did go wrong.

Then HP (of necessity) got into home/consumer-grade products...and the results are what we live with today.

But I don't completely blame HP's engineers. It's hard to take engineering teams, who were used to designing and building what was often the Rolls-Royce of office and computer equipment, and suddenly expect them to start making "good enough" inexpensive pieces of plastic crap for the masses - most of whom were utterly "price motivated" when out shopping.

"Fast, cheap, reliable - pick any two," as the saying goes.

Vurbal · « **Reply #38 on:** January 22, 2015, 02:29 PM »

I'll show my ignorance here and ask what's probably a stupid question.

If I can create an adhoc wired 'network' so easily, then why is a wireless solution so much different. The comm's should be the same, so we're only talking about the means of transmission (is landline v mobile telephony is an appropriate analogy?)
-Target (January 21, 2015, 09:08 PM)

Since others have already covered the basic technical aspects, I'll just add this. While it would be possible to overcome the technical hurdles, it would require an R&D investment which doesn't make sense financially because there isn't enough of a market for it.

Most people who would buy a wireless printer already have some sort of Wi-Fi enabled router or switch installed. Adding the dumb Wi-Fi interfaces used today costs very little because the technology is already commoditized so the cost per unit is minimal but it will sell a lot more printers. They're only going to improve those interfaces if they expect to recoup those costs in revenue growth.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying the results couldn't justify the cost, but I guarantee the manufacturers are.

xtabber · « **Reply #39 on:** January 22, 2015, 02:54 PM »

@xtabber - That's good news to hear. This was my first Brother multifunction appliance purchase (for myself) and I was a little leery of dropping about $250 on this type of device.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 11:59 AM)

It's a good investment. I paid $280 for my DCP 8080DN (not wireless) 4 years ago and have never had a problem. Brother's network administration utilities are excellent, and they support both printing and scanning from Android devices too.

My previous Brother printer lasted 5 years and was replaced with this one only because it needed a new drum and and it didn't cost much more to buy a newer and faster model than it would to buy a new drum. As Stoic Joker said, most personal and workgroup printers today are designed to be disposable, so you don't want to spend time fixing them, but you also don't want to have to replace them before their time is up.

Vurbal · « **Reply #40 on:** January 22, 2015, 02:57 PM »

My experience with HP is to stick to the real business class products and you'll be fine. T'was a time when that was all they sold, so it was a no-brainer going with HP. The old Laserjets (II/3/4/5/81xx/85xx, etc.) were built like tanks and un-killable. And they were repairable (often even field repairable) if anything did go wrong.

Then HP (of necessity) got into home/consumer-grade products...and the results are what we live with today.

But I don't completely blame HP's engineers. It's hard to take engineering teams, who were used to designing and building what was often the Rolls-Royce of office and computer equipment, and suddenly expect them to start making "good enough" inexpensive pieces of plastic crap for the masses - most of whom were utterly "price motivated" when out shopping.

"Fast, cheap, reliable - pick any two," as the saying goes.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM)

Since HP got serious in the low end business market in the early 2000s, they've done a pretty good job of addressing the cheap part too. If nothing else, you can buy some fantastic HP computers (from server to laptop), and sometimes printers too, for dirt cheap from a lot of electronics recyclers. When it comes to desktops, laptops, and, to a certain extent, printers, you can save a lot of money just because they don't have all the bells and whistles used to justify the price of most consumer hardware.

4wd · « **Reply #41 on:** January 22, 2015, 03:08 PM »

Then HP (of necessity) got into home/consumer-grade products...and the results are what we live with today.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM)

Still got a Deskjet 932C that churns out mono prints, (colour cartridges too expensive to replace, otherwise it would be printing in colour), after ~12 years.

Occasionally eats a sheet of paper but apart from that it doesn't seem to want to die ... which is annoying as it's getting a bit harder to find black cartridges now, (thank the stars for China and ebay

).

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #42 on:** January 22, 2015, 03:58 PM »

My experience with HP is to stick to the real business class products and you'll be fine. T'was a time when that was all they sold, so it was a no-brainer going with HP. The old Laserjets (II/3/4/5/81xx/85xx, etc.) were built like tanks and un-killable.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM)

I've currently got an HP LaserJet 4050dn here in IT, and a standing threat to shoot anybody that tries to wander off with it.

And they were repairable (often even field repairable) if anything did go wrong.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM)

We have a crew of 5 service techs that do HP (and other brands) field repairs, all day, every day. So they are still possible.

Then HP (of necessity) got into home/consumer-grade products...and the results are what we live with today.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM)

I get where you're coming from here ... And yes, many of the really low end devices are ship to factory for ~~disposal~~ repair only. But I think that's only in the InkJet stuff...I honestly don't recall it ever happening with any of the LaserJets.

But I don't completely blame HP's engineers...
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM)

While I frequently spend much time swearing at them because of some of the designs...or the fact that they keep moving things. Over all I really like their products. Especially from the networking side where scan to Email/Folder/etc. services have to be tied into customer networks. I've dealt with the UI's from all of the major brands, and many of the fringe/copier brands. HP definitely has the best Embedded Web Server for administrative access going. Yes they tend to be slow as hell (since they went SSL). But they are laid out so that everything needed for a given task is in the section for that task.

app103 · « **Reply #43 on:** January 22, 2015, 07:03 PM »

Then HP (of necessity) got into home/consumer-grade products...and the results are what we live with today.
-40hz (January 22, 2015, 02:21 PM)

Still got a Deskjet 932C that churns out mono prints, (colour cartridges too expensive to replace, otherwise it would be printing in colour), after ~12 years.

Occasionally eats a sheet of paper but apart from that it doesn't seem to want to die ... which is annoying as it's getting a bit harder to find black cartridges now, (thank the stars for China and ebay ).
-4wd (January 22, 2015, 03:08 PM)

I had a Deskjet 720C, which I loved and used till all the rubber rotted off the carriage belt and the last remaining bare thread snapped.

The ink cartridges were quite expensive, but they lasted a long time. I think I only had to replace mine about once per year, and that's with my daughter doing a TON of color printing. That printer got her through both middle & high school on about 6 sets of cartridges.

I believe I still have a color cartridge from mine, unused, still sealed in its package. I am still looking for a home for it, in case your printer can use it. I know you are not in the US but I would consider shipping it to you if you can use it, rather than throwing it in the trash.

https://www.donation...ex.php?topic=22632.0

4wd · « **Reply #44 on:** January 22, 2015, 08:23 PM »

I know you are not in the US but I would consider shipping it to you if you can use it, rather than throwing it in the trash.
-app103 (January 22, 2015, 07:03 PM)

Thanks for the offer but mine uses a #78 tri-colour.

40hz · « **Reply #45 on:** January 22, 2015, 08:45 PM »

I've currently got an HP LaserJet 4050dn here in IT, and a standing threat to shoot anybody that tries to wander off with it.
-Stoic Joker (January 22, 2015, 03:58 PM)

That is my main workhorse too. Got it used from a client with 65K pages worth of use on it for $50. It's still going strong. The 4xxx series was one of the best HP ever produced IMO. I also had a LaserjetIII (with Postscript cartridge!) that I bought new when it first came out. That "boat anchor" performed yeoman’s service right up until the day a client's 3-year old kid (an out of control little brat if there ever was one!) yanked the PS cartridge out and then rapidly plugged it back in three or four times in a row while the unit was running. After that, it would only print two pages at a time before a print job timed out. It got replaced by a Laserjet 4 the following week.

4wd · « **Reply #46 on:** January 22, 2015, 09:14 PM »

In the interest of getting the thread back on Target

@Target:

Yours if you want it:

Brand new in box, (for the last 2 years), got it cheap as a spare for 'justin' but it's highly unlikely I'd ever go back to a 100Mb switch.

Let me know what the ethernet MAC of the printer is and what IP you'd like it to have and I'll set up the static DHCP as well as WLAN+WPA2.

It'll give you a WiFI AP with a printer hanging off that phones/laptops/PCs/PVR/dogs*/etc should be able to access.

* Sony Aibo only.

app103 · « **Reply #47 on:** January 23, 2015, 12:12 AM »

I know you are not in the US but I would consider shipping it to you if you can use it, rather than throwing it in the trash.
-app103 (January 22, 2015, 07:03 PM)

Thanks for the offer but mine uses a #78 tri-colour.
-4wd (January 22, 2015, 08:23 PM)

Shame I don't have any black ones left. Both printers did take the same #45 Black.

* Sony Aibo only.
-4wd (January 22, 2015, 09:14 PM)

Target · « **Reply #48 on:** January 23, 2015, 12:28 AM »

Yours if you want it:
-4wd (January 22, 2015, 09:14 PM)

HA that's funny, I was looking at exactly the same one on a throw out table at officeworks only a couple of days ago ($19...)

Happy to help you out with this (reducing clutter is clearly one of your new years revolutions) - I'll PM you

and to wander off in search of wherever this thread was going, I understood this was a cheap printer, but compared to the inkjet my wifes been using it will have paid for itself a few times over even if I throw it out when the toner runs out. I'm under no illusions about it's servicability, but so long as its reliable I don't have a problem

4wd · « **Reply #49 on:** January 23, 2015, 03:34 AM »

Shame I don't have any black ones left. Both printers did take the same #45 Black.
-app103 (January 23, 2015, 12:12 AM)

AU$13 for a pair of #45s from China, (including postage), isn't going to break the bank.

A store has just advertised new HP MFPs for $18. I could buy one to use and another dozen for spare cartridges, the whole printer is cheaper than a single compatible cartridge

Happy to help you out with this (reducing clutter is clearly one of your new years revolutions)
-Target (January 23, 2015, 12:28 AM)

More like, maximising space available for the acquiring of more worthy "junque".

BTW, don't expect a reply to a PM before Tuesday - I'm going bush.