Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage. (Read 388789 times)

wraith808 · « **Reply #250 on:** July 27, 2013, 09:46 AM »

I saw that a while ago- that's the reason that they don't classify him a 'whistleblower' $:-\$

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #251 on:** July 27, 2013, 12:16 PM »

I saw that a while ago- that's the reason that they don't classify him a 'whistleblower' $:-\$
-wraith808 (July 27, 2013, 09:46 AM)

Exactly ... Whistleblowers are only supposed to report on all those other bad people..

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #252 on:** July 27, 2013, 01:56 PM »

...
Yeah. That statement seems a bit embarrassing at the very same time Obama's administration is threatening trade sanctions against anyone who grants asylum to Ed Snowden. Also... at the same time that we get to see how whistleblower Bradley Manning's "full access to courts and due process" will turn out. So far, it's been anything but reasonable, considering that the UN has already condemned Manning's treatment as "cruel and inhuman." And people wonder why Snowden left the country...
-40hz (July 27, 2013, 07:36 AM)

Heh. Yep. Though I didn't read the whole article a few posts above, that snip posted here said "we promise not to use the Death Penalty. So we're confident this takes care of concerns he has" or something.

Omit much? Skipping the cheap shot about "disappearing him", they'd just give him a Life Term while conveniently doing little things to upset him until his health cracks and he keels over.

And that part about Whistleblowers - isn't the very definition of that being someone exposing ugly things? But now we get to add the *other Orwell book* to our reading list (Animal Farm).

"Oh, we like Whistleblowers as long as it's something harmless. But Some Whistleblowers are More Protected Than Others."

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #253 on:** July 27, 2013, 01:59 PM »

Ya know, we might be closing in on a Johnny Mnemonic moment. Just suppose some version of all that Prism data gets out into the wild for real. "Everything everyone has ever clicked, ever". THAT might be the data nuclear winter that finally wakes people up!

Tinman57 · « **Reply #254 on:** July 27, 2013, 07:23 PM »

ast I heard the SU37 wasn't even in production. Either way, they're trying to play "catch-up" with the F22, F23 and the Joint Task Fighter, which not only have vectoring thrust, but are also stealthy. The F35 JTF also comes in a V-STOL model that can take off and land like a helicopter.
-Tinman57 (July 26, 2013, 09:38 PM)

No... that was a reply to ren's talk about the most maneuverable Russian fighter. But even going back, they're trying to catch up in terms of avionics more than anything else. Which is what decides those things in most engagements these days.
-wraith808 (July 26, 2013, 10:42 PM)

OIC. Sowwy....

Tinman57 · « **Reply #255 on:** July 27, 2013, 07:43 PM »

@T0Man - Mea culpa - got careless with the dates.

FWIW, Wikipedia is citing the maximum speed and cruise speed as both at .92 Mach, and citing the USAF as its source for the specs. Seemed odd to me that both speed specs were the same, but I'm no expert. You might want to go in and do an edit.

Had a fighter jock who first saw action around the end of Viet Nam tell me that by the end of that war it was pretty obvious dogfighting was over. He told me at the speeds the fighters were moving even back then it was already becoming impractical. And on a head to head pass, all other factors being equal, whoever fired first usually won. So the name of the game became more to sneak up and shoot first rather than go mano a mano with an enemy pilot. He said once the new "smart" weapons systems and support from E-6B Looking Glass aircraft and satellite recon all came online, it then got down to who had the best technology. He said his feeling was the fighter pilots were slowly becoming highly trained delivery boys whose main role was to cart the new weapons around until you were close enough to let them off the leash so the "chip-brain" inside them could decide what to do next.

Said he was glad he got out when he did, which was right after Desert Storm. (He's a bit crazy IMHO, but he's still a great guy.)
-40hz (July 26, 2013, 11:00 PM)

The A.F. never publishes the max speeds of their aircraft. The F15 Eagle was always rated at Mach 2.2+. That little + is the difference.

When the F4 Phantom II first came to life (F4A to F4D), it didn't have a cannon. All of the "experts" said it didn't need a cannon because everything is missiles now. The pilots raised so much hell and aircraft losses were so high that they bolted on a 20mm Vulcan cannon pod to it's belly. Now why in the age of missile carrying aircraft would you need a cannon? Well, you can only carry so many missiles, and when they're all gone, your defenseless. Another problem with missiles, when your up close and personal it's almost impossible to get a missile lock. Pull the cannon trigger, problem solved. When the F4E came to life, it had an internal 20mm Vulcan cannon.

Tinman57 · « **Reply #256 on:** July 27, 2013, 08:01 PM »

The F35 JSF?!?!

The term alone is already becoming more and more "dirty". That plane is a lot like Google actually...that plane is already so long in beta that alternative fighter planes are already taken out of commission because they themselves already become too old.

I think that plane was intended to replace the F16 in the Dutch air-force for more than 10 years now, each plane costing almost twice as much as initially specified by the manufacturer. Only last week the first one is delivered to see if it up to the task.

If you would ask me (and I know that no-one did) that plane is either too advanced for its own good or aeronautical engineers are not as good as they once were.

Day late, dollar short anyone?
-Shades (July 26, 2013, 11:18 PM)

The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is a collectively built aircraft being built by the U.S., The United Kingdom, Italy, Israel, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Norway, Denmark, and Turkey, each making a specific part of the aircraft.
Was there any doubt that there was going to be problems with this? It takes years to work out the bugs of an advanced technology aircraft, but when being made from so many nations, there are going to be problems, I knew this was going to be a clusterf#@k from the start.

Now back on topic..... So Obooboo now says he's into the whistleblower system. OK, it it just me, or does he flip-flop like a highway patrolman on a busy interstate?

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #257 on:** July 28, 2013, 03:45 AM »

So Obooboo now says he's into the whistleblower system
-Tinman57 (July 27, 2013, 08:01 PM)

Next he will be saying he wants Snowden to come home to receive a medal ...

wraith808 · « **Reply #258 on:** July 28, 2013, 09:40 AM »

So Obooboo now says he's into the whistleblower system
-Tinman57 (July 27, 2013, 08:01 PM)

Next he will be saying he wants Snowden to come home to receive a medal ...
-Carol Haynes (July 28, 2013, 03:45 AM)

No, they want him to come home, and will not seek the death penalty. Oooh....

$:-\$

Vurbal · « **Reply #259 on:** July 28, 2013, 10:08 AM »

No, they want him to come home, and will not seek the death penalty. Oooh.... $:-\$
-wraith808 (July 28, 2013, 09:40 AM)

Any time a politician makes a point of telling you what he isn't doing it's because he doesn't want to talk about what he is doing.

Renegade · « **Reply #260 on:** July 28, 2013, 10:15 AM »

No, they want him to come home, and will not seek the death penalty. Oooh.... $:-\$
-wraith808 (July 28, 2013, 09:40 AM)

Yep.

They're just so generous and compassionate! How can he say "no" to the criminals that he ratted out?

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #261 on:** July 28, 2013, 11:10 AM »

No, they want him to come home, and will not seek the death penalty. Oooh.... $:-\$
-wraith808 (July 28, 2013, 09:40 AM)

Yeah, I had remarked on that really odd wording elsewhere too.

With all the other attacks on the Constitution, I think the ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" might fall one day too. I had it all worked out a while back... so you could give people "unusual" punishments simply by declaring them "not cruel proportional to the crime". This makes for endless comedy skits - going all clockwork orange on someone and making them watch Barney repeats!

Renegade · « **Reply #262 on:** July 28, 2013, 11:33 AM »

With all the other attacks on the Constitution, I think the ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" might fall one day too. I had it all worked out a while back... so you could give people "unusual" punishments simply by declaring them "not cruel proportional to the crime".
-TaoPhoenix (July 28, 2013, 11:10 AM)

Hopefully not. Cross fingers.

This makes for endless comedy skits - going all clockwork orange on someone and making them watch Barney repeats!
-TaoPhoenix (July 28, 2013, 11:10 AM)

If it's unfunny, is it uncomedy?

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #263 on:** July 28, 2013, 12:57 PM »

Heh going back to the initial premise of chess, I have decided that we're in a Sicilian rather than a Ruy Lopez because the US isn't patiently maneuvering, it's trying to encircle the whole board.

I don't yet know the variation though.

Do we think Snoden's side is running out of steam?

dr_andus · « **Reply #264 on:** August 01, 2013, 10:26 AM »

Snowden has been smuggled out of Sheremetyevo Airport, presumably with the FSB's assistance. As I've argued, Snowden continues to be a symbolic asset for the Russians. They gain more out of grandstanding with Snowden, than from simply trading him. There is not much Obama can realistically offer in exchange, considering his lack of leverage over Congress.

The immediate issue was to save Obama from the embarrassment of having to arrive at Sheremetyevo Airport while Snowden was also there. I wouldn't be surprised if Snowden would 'decide' to go on holiday in a remote region of Russia during the G20 summit...

Renegade · « **Reply #265 on:** August 01, 2013, 10:37 AM »

^^ Woohoo for Snowden! I'm still crossing my fingers for him. Buddy has balls the size of the moon!

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #266 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:43 AM »

^^ Woohoo for Snowden! I'm still crossing my fingers for him. Buddy has balls the size of the moon!
-Renegade (August 01, 2013, 10:37 AM)

+100 - I'd like to see all of Washington DC humiliated so badly they're collectively forced to step down ... Or off the plank...either is fine.

Renegade · « **Reply #267 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:48 AM »

Or off the plank...either is fine.
-Stoic Joker (August 01, 2013, 11:43 AM)

OFF THE PLANK! OFF THE PLANK! MY VOTE IS FOR OFF THE PLANK!!!!!!!

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #268 on:** August 01, 2013, 12:01 PM »

Or off the plank...either is fine.
-Stoic Joker (August 01, 2013, 11:43 AM)

OFF THE PLANK! OFF THE PLANK! MY VOTE IS FOR OFF THE PLANK!!!!!!!
-Renegade (August 01, 2013, 11:48 AM)

Vote has been seconded...

wraith808 · « **Reply #269 on:** August 01, 2013, 12:32 PM »

The cynic in me (like how I did that renegade?) is screaming that the Russians just wanted to have the hold card in their hand at this point...

dr_andus · « **Reply #270 on:** August 01, 2013, 06:55 PM »

Here's some analysis of what might be behind the Russian decision:

The decision is backed by almost twice as many Russians as those against it and those who view Snowden’s role as positive outnumber negative assessments three to one. While the case risks derailing U.S.-Russian relations, it gives Putin a chance to rally support at home and deflect attention from his own human-rights record...

“His main propaganda message domestically will be that things are similar everywhere: the CIA and the FBI violate human rights just like everybody else.”

Putin, who used Russia’s oil-powered wealth accumulation to build support for his 13-year rule, is facing an economy that threatens to slide into recession.

While Russia lacks the economic power that China or the West wield, it strives to be treated as an equal and the Snowden affair gave Putin an opportunity to show that...

Returning Snowden to the U.S. “would undermine Russia’s bid to promote globally an image of a major geopolitical player offering an alternative to the western-dominated world.”

The U.S. refusing to allow Snowden to seek asylum in a third country left Russia with little choice.

While Putin himself was taken hostage by the events to a certain extent and the decision to grant Snowden asylum is “absolutely irrational” from the perspective of international relations, Russia “decided to make use of Snowden” to put pressure on the U.S. “The pressure is to show that we weren’t born yesterday." “That’s the Russian sentiment on everything, whether it’s Iran, Syria or relations with China.”

dr_andus · « **Reply #271 on:** August 01, 2013, 07:25 PM »

And it's a brilliant move on the Russians' part because there is not all that much the US can do about it. Cancel Obama's visit? It would just call further attention to the cause of that cancellation, which is again the NSA, spying on US citizens etc., etc. Bad PR move.

Plus the US seems to need Russia more than the other way round:

But senior State Department officials said they don't expect the meeting to be canceled because the U.S. wants to address with the leaders a "broad range of topics that are important to U.S. national security interests," including Afghanistan.

Officials say that the U.S. can push Moscow only so far without jeopardizing U.S. interests in other areas. The U.S. needs Russia to help keep pressure on Iran over its nuclear program, including maintaining sanctions, for example. "We can't go overboard," a senior administration official said.

And this was the most interesting bit to me:

Thursday's development caught many in the administration by surprise, an administration official said.

Really? Maybe they should start reading some online forums and stuff... I mean what's going on in the State Dept? Or is that the White House that calls the shots in this affair? Either way, there has been some incredible dilettantism on display. If US-Russia relations will suffer as a result of all this, it will be a self-inflicted wound. I'm glad they messed up with apprehending Snowden, but it's alarming to see such lack of strategic and tactical thinking on the part of the word's super power...

Tinman57 · « **Reply #272 on:** August 01, 2013, 08:07 PM »

Video to see:

- ECYM

EVERY CALL YOU MAKE

Every call you make
And every thought you take
Every truth you break, every right you take
They are watching you

Every text each day
Every word you say
Every sound you play, and saved this day
They are watching you

Oh, can't you see
You must submit to me?
And make no mistake
With every thought you take
Oh, With every call you make

Every friend you make
Every line you break
Every nick you fake, every name you create
They are watching you

Today, Snowden's gone without a trace
They are busy inventing an espionage case
He's got four LapTops which can't be replaced
They keep begging Snowden, Snowden please
Snowden Please

Oh, can't you see
They belong to me?
Now N. S. A. aches
With every thought he takes
With every call you make

Every point he makes
Every lie he breaks
Every truth he awakes, make no mistake
They are watching you

Every plan you make, every call you make
Oh, they are watching you
They are watching you
They are watching you
They are watching you

http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=loSlVXtZj8s

Renegade · « **Reply #273 on:** August 01, 2013, 09:27 PM »

The cynic in me (like how I did that renegade?) is screaming that the Russians just wanted to have the hold card in their hand at this point...
-wraith808 (August 01, 2013, 12:32 PM)

HAHAHA~!

Video to see:

- ECYM

EVERY CALL YOU MAKE...

http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=loSlVXtZj8s

-Tinman57 (August 01, 2013, 08:07 PM)

That was excellent!

I was expecting it to be a bit more "Policey", but it didn't disappoint!

wraith808 · « **Reply #274 on:** August 02, 2013, 11:12 AM »

And it's a brilliant move on the Russians' part because there is not all that much the US can do about it. Cancel Obama's visit? It would just call further attention to the cause of that cancellation, which is again the NSA, spying on US citizens etc., etc. Bad PR move.

Plus the US seems to need Russia more than the other way round:

But senior State Department officials said they don't expect the meeting to be canceled because the U.S. wants to address with the leaders a "broad range of topics that are important to U.S. national security interests," including Afghanistan.

Officials say that the U.S. can push Moscow only so far without jeopardizing U.S. interests in other areas. The U.S. needs Russia to help keep pressure on Iran over its nuclear program, including maintaining sanctions, for example. "We can't go overboard," a senior administration official said.
-dr_andus (August 01, 2013, 07:25 PM)

It seems that others are looking at it in a totally different way.

The Sheremetyevo chapter may be over, but the saga itself will continue. Already, there have been calls by US congressmen that Russia should be held accountable for granting Snowden asylum. There is also little doubt that US president Barack Obama will now cancel his planned trip to Moscow in September.

and

With Snowden, the Kremlin did the moral thing – and the moral thing also happened to be the only thing the Kremlin could do in this instance. Essentially denied safe passage to Latin America, Snowden was marooned, and letting him languish in Sheremetyevo indefinitely would have dented the Kremlin's credibility at home and abroad.

In recent years, Moscow has excelled at snubbing Washington over anything it could, but the Snowden situation was different from the start. It prompted unusually cautious words from Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, who said that Snowden could remain in Russia provided he would do no more damage to the US government, which Putin referred to as the Russian government's partner.

Other prominent members of the government have pointed out that Russia was left with little choice in the matter. The head of the State Duma committee on international affairs, Alexei Pushkov, said: "Even though Obama said that he wouldn't ground a plane over some '29-year-old hacker', they trapped Snowden after they grounded the Bolivian president's plane."

"Any other decision would have meant that Russia would lose face," deputy Vyacheslav Nikonov told Kommersant. "If we didn't give Snowden asylum, no one would take us seriously – and the Americans would be the first to do this."