LulzSec: Folding up its tent - or merely going to ground?

[40hz]

[attach]

[Deozaan]

Even if e.g. I don't want an Australian ISP to censor the net, I can't approve of the methods used by Lulzsec in stopping them.

The ends don't justify the means.

[Josh]

Sounds like they know they are close to getting caught...

[Renegade]

Even if e.g. I don't want an Australian ISP to censor the net, I can't approve of the methods used by Lulzsec in stopping them.

The ends don't justify the means.

I'm not so sure... They really believe that DDOS is peaceful protest, and in many ways I can understand that.

Remember, in some places protesting is equivalent to signing the warrant for yourself to disappear in the literal sense.

I'm all for civil disobedience and peaceful protest, but in the digital age, I think we need to rethink what that means. Is DDOS a legitimate tactic?

I think we've been through that discussion though:

DDOS Ethics

I am not willing to rule out DDOS or even violent revolution. But I think the situation matters. So, I'm simply not willing to buy into "justice is blind" or any of that, as it inevitably ends up as some twisted abomination in a malformed set of laws. Case by case seems to be the way I'm leaning lately. (I do tend to change my mind from time to time -- I'm easily swayed by better arguments or evidence than those I know/am aware of.)



As for LulzSec, they're only shifting forms. They're dropping the name, so it's business as usual.

[40hz]

Sounds like they know they are close to getting caught...

Oh I have no doubt they (or some of them at least) will be brought in very shortly.

It's all well and good for the hack culture to dis governmental computing and network security groups. But when all is said and done, The Man is no slouche when it comes to tech, access, or resources. And he has the cops on his side. So he's not limited to cyber weapons or legal niceties when he's provoked. Governments don't get mad. When they get really pissed they send in a Special Ops team. Or bomb something.

It's your basic rock-paper-scissors scenario: gun beats laptop in a F2F confrontation.



 

[Renegade]

Sounds like they know they are close to getting caught...

Oh I have no doubt they (or some of them at least) will be brought in very shortly.

I don't share your confidence.

A well planned attack creates international privacy issues when you can hide behind laws or hide behind the need for a subpoena. Do that a few times, and you've got a complete bureaucratic nightmare.

Route just once through a friendly proxy in Iran or some other state that isn't friendly to the US, and you effectively cut the investigation off completely. Anything other than that isn't real evidence, assuming nobody leaks anything.

So, it boils down to leaks. I'm not that confident there.

[40hz]

I don't share your confidence.

A well planned attack creates international privacy issues when you can hide behind laws or hide behind the need for a subpoena. Do that a few times, and you've got a complete bureaucratic nightmare.

I don't share your optimism.  

The US federal government has granted itself (under US law) the authority to investigate, pursue and take into custody, and prosecute anybody who has committed a crime against the United States (or one of its citizens) anywhere in the world regardless of the country it was committed in or the citizenship of the person accused.

The US government invaded Panama and overthrew its government to arrest General Noriega on drug trafficking charges. We have an unknown number of prisoners rotting in a concentration camp on a military base in Cuba - a country that is officially hostile towards the US. We just walked into the country of a supposed ally, without so much as a "by your leave," for the express purpose of killing Osama Bin Laden.

Regardless of the "rightness" or "justice" or "necessity" of any of the above (and there are differing opinions) I think it's fairly obvious the United States does not feel constrained by treaties, international law, due process - or even it's own Constitution when it feels US interests are being threatened. (Like that famous movie line said: Badges? Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!)

Nor does any other major power these days.

9/11 changed everything. For everybody. Look around at all the governmental meddling, firewalling, and network censoring that's either planned, or already being done, worldwide. It's even happening in the so-called democratic nations.

C'mon Ren! You're supposed to be our resident cynic. Do you really believe the US is gonna let some inconvenient law or due process argument stop them from nailing someone who's thumbing their nose at them?

[Renegade]

C'mon Ren! You're supposed to be our resident cynic. Do you really believe the US is gonna let some inconvenient law or due process argument stop them from nailing someone who's thumbing their nose at them?

Why do you think I said:

I am not willing to rule out DDOS or even violent revolution.

The US is out of control. But, I'm not going to get into that because it's far too political for DC.

Anything further that I have to say would be very improper, and in the US, probably illegal. I need to bow out there. Sorry.

[40hz]

I'm not going to get into that because it's far too political for DC.

Agree. Dis ain't da venue for it. Let's talk about other things.