What's your Programming Language?

[jeremejazz]

So, I just want to know, what is your most preferred language. This is just to find out which is the most preferred

[bgd77]

I really like C (I started to like it after I understood it). 

At work I use Perl, which is also nice.

[CWuestefeld]

My primary tools these days are SQL and C#.

I find that SQL is a royal pain in the butt, especially using MS's extensions to it in SQL Server for writing stored procedures. Pain that it is, it's still the most effective tool available for this kind of work.

I grew up with C and changed to C++. The subtleties there are just horrific. When I did technical interviews for C++ developers, I'd always ask them to rate their skills 0-10. Anyone who said 9 or 10, I'd immediately assume they were lying. From this I dabbled in Java, but found it didn't live up to the hype.

I did a lot of work in VB 5 and 6 - not that I think these are good languages, but it was a great platform for building COM/ActiveX applications. Accomplishing that in C++ was like root canal.

But then Microsoft came out with .Net. And C# captured almost everything that was good about C++ and Java, and added some niceties of its own. So that's where I mostly am for application development today.

However, over the past year, I've been dabbling in Python. I find it easy and elegant.

@bgd77 -- I thoroughly agree with your implication about understanding. It's one thing to intellectually accept the technical benefits of something. It's quite another to grok it so that you can effectively leverage that theory.

[housetier]

python, php, erlang, shell scripts, javascript

[Tuxman]

I love it when the first postings in topics about a programming language contain bullshit about scripting languages...

But OK, I'll append mine then:

My favorite programming language is C++.
Java and C# are sluggish, resource hogging nonsense to me, while Delphi (which I actually like because it doesn't need a framework of any kind) is not a part of my knowledge...

Shorties:
My favorite description language is HTML with all needed extensions.
My favorite general scripting language is PHP, because I just don't know Perl and Python...
My favorite application scripting language depends. I know a few of them.

[housetier]

What bullshit are you referring to?

[tranglos]

Delphi all the way, from day one.

PHP is certainly effective. It took me about 30 minutes to write my first WordPress widget to show a random quote of the day. Then I went from almost zero knowledge to writing and debugging a simple template-based website generator in a week. But, from my initial encounter, it seems rather messy - names and parameters of library procedures seem to go every which way, moreso than Windows API I'm not sure I like the scoping rules, either - perhaps it's something that requires experience to appreciate. At the moment though, I wouldn't attempt writing anything very complex in PHP, because I'd be lost in no time.

Python, from what I've read and seen of the code, seems more "regular" and manageable. (Then again... no case statement?) I just can't come up with an idea for a worthwhile project to do in Python. Especially that for anything that needs a UI, nothing beats Delphi.

(There are ways to add Python scripting to a Delphi app, which seems like a winning combo to me. The only hitch is that most users won't bother to download and install a Python distribution, while VBScript and JavaScript are available on most Windows systems out of the box).

[Tuxman]

What bullshit are you referring to?

-housetier (October 26, 2009, 10:55 AM)

Like answering "Javascript" when you're asked for your favorite programming language. 

I just can't come up with an idea for a worthwhile project to do in Python.

-tranglos (October 26, 2009, 11:41 AM)

AFAIK you can use it for hacking and stuff. But that's not a good reason, is it?

[CWuestefeld]

Java and C# are sluggish, resource hogging nonsense to me, while Delphi (which I actually like because it doesn't need a framework of any kind) is not a part of my knowledge...

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 09:48 AM)

Ahem. Delphi certainly does have a framework -- that's what BCL is. I think what you mean is that Delphi doesn't have any kind of virtual machine or abstraction layer in which it runs. Delphi is an excellent language, and it's worthwhile noting that it was designed by the lead designer of C#, Anders Hejlsberg. In any case, having a framework available is generally a good thing, that's why people take the time to develop them. They save time in custom-building your own infrastructure, and in the case of standardized ones such as BCL or ASP.Net, save a good deal of learning because you can leverage your understanding to multiple projects.

What bullshit are you referring to?

-housetier (October 26, 2009, 10:55 AM)

Like answering "Javascript" when you're asked for your favorite programming language. 

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 12:09 PM)

That's a rather elitist remark. IMHO, it also reveals a lack of understanding of javascript. The language gets a bad rap, but if you look more deeply at it, you'll find that there's really much more substance to it than immediately meets the eye. For example, in the hands of someone who understands it, javascript lends itself well to dynamic programming techniques that you might expect to need a Python or Ruby for.

[tranglos]

What bullshit are you referring to?

-housetier (October 26, 2009, 10:55 AM)

Like answering "Javascript" when you're asked for your favorite programming language. 

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 12:09 PM)

I for one learnd some respect for JavaScript when I saw how much of FireFox is implemented in it. It's a rich OO language with all the modern gizmos like first-class functions, iterators, closures and what-not.

I just can't come up with an idea for a worthwhile project to do in Python.

-tranglos (October 26, 2009, 11:41 AM)

AFAIK you can use it for hacking and stuff. But that's not a good reason, is it?

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 12:09 PM)

"Hacking and stuff" is a little broad for a project description What I said was merely that of the applications I would like to write some day (because I need them and because they interest me), none is a good candidate for a beginner Python project. If you like to write server-side stuff, or command-line processing, or if your platform is Google or social networks or the web in general, then Python is probably an excellent choice. I'm just not interested in those things at all. My thing is strictly Windows desktop. (Literally. If I had come up with an idea for something like Twitter 5 years ago, I'd have abandoned it as entirely too boring. That's me.)

[Tuxman]

Ahem. Delphi certainly does have a framework -- that's what BCL is. I think what you mean is that Delphi doesn't have any kind of virtual machine or abstraction layer in which it runs.

-CWuestefeld (October 26, 2009, 12:39 PM)

Ah, yes. Sorry, phrasing FAIL.  

it's worthwhile noting that it was designed by the lead designer of C#, Anders Hejlsberg.

-CWuestefeld (October 26, 2009, 12:39 PM)

So what's wrong with that guy now?

javascript lends itself well to dynamic programming techniques that you might expect to need a Python or Ruby for.

-CWuestefeld (October 26, 2009, 12:39 PM)

None of these are programming languages. There is some structural difference, right?

[tranglos]

javascript lends itself well to dynamic programming techniques that you might expect to need a Python or Ruby for.

-CWuestefeld (October 26, 2009, 12:39 PM)

None of these are programming languages.

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 12:45 PM)

I just threw an exception here. I think we're having a communication breakdown

[tranglos]

Yay, language wars!   

[CWuestefeld]

javascript lends itself well to dynamic programming techniques that you might expect to need a Python or Ruby for.

-CWuestefeld (October 26, 2009, 12:39 PM)

None of these are programming languages. There is some structural difference, right?

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 12:45 PM)

I'd be inclined to include in the category of programming languages at least those that are Turing complete, because those are the ones that you can write any program in (with varying degrees of efficiency).

That would certainly exclude markup languages like HTML, XML, SGML. It technically even excludes SQL. But any language that satisfies the bare essentials for building a general-purpose algorithmic engine (and the bar is pretty low; have you ever programmed in, say, 6502 assembler?) ought to a candidate.

But then, I'm not the one who posed the original question.

[mouser]

We had a long discussion about scripting languages here:
https://www.donation...dex.php?topic=4461.0

In general i think it's silly to say a scripting language isn't a "real" programming language -- the real issue is choosing the right tool for the right job.

[Tuxman]

For me, a real programming language is something you'll get an executable file from. Thus, Java is none either. 

[jgpaiva]

Thus, Java is none either. 

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 02:48 PM)

[MilesAhead]

"Hacking and stuff" is a little broad for a project description What I said was merely that of the applications I would like to write some day (because I need them and because they interest me), none is a good candidate for a beginner Python project. If you like to write server-side stuff, or command-line processing, or if your platform is Google or social networks or the web in general, then Python is probably an excellent choice. I'm just not interested in those things at all. My thing is strictly Windows desktop. (Literally. If I had come up with an idea for something like Twitter 5 years ago, I'd have abandoned it as entirely too boring. That's me.)

-tranglos (October 26, 2009, 12:44 PM)

It is tough once spoiled with Delphi to get into doing GUI with Python. It's probably easier if you come from inline code GUI creation rather than drag & drop(although there may be some designers for it now.. I haven't messed with it in awhile.)  I remember when I first tried it the thing I hated was the indentation as opposed to braces.  Now that's the thing I like most about it.  Seems kind of a pita to hold down the shift key just to mark the begin and end of a code block.

There is a free download ActivePython for Win32 that even has COM support.  Also you can fold scripts into an exe wrapper but it's not as easily done as AutoIt3 or AHK.  You have to make a script to do it.  After a few runs it would be second nature I guess.

To me syntax is a big issue.  I got the concept of SmallTalk, but trying to do stuff in those brackets gave me the creeps. But it helped me understand other OOP languages that stole from it.  Likewise Perl is powerful, but any of those pattern substitution statements, if somebody said "will you stake me $100 that this output is not possible from any input?" I'd have to decline.  After all, usually after a few days I'd discover some stuff that had no business coming out of the code I wrote considering what text was input!!

C and C++ have their appeal.  But if anyone sticks a bunch of dereferenced function pointers in front of me and asks me to decode it, I'll reply "that's what parsers are for" and avoid that sadistic individual.  The main pita with C++ is that '->' operator.  Sure an arrow implies "pointer" but until they come up with a typewriter with an arrow key that doesn't require shift, there should have been some sense used(like some languages let you use dot even if it is really a pointer and the compiler figures it out.)

[MilesAhead]

btw, the only real programming language is the one that pays me a royalty.  Since that isn't happening, it's an ideal yet to be achieved. 

[CWuestefeld]

The main pita with C++ is that '->' operator.  Sure an arrow implies "pointer" but until they come up with a typewriter with an arrow key that doesn't require shift, there should have been some sense used(like some languages let you use dot even if it is really a pointer and the compiler figures it out.)

-MilesAhead (October 26, 2009, 03:14 PM)

One of my big "ah-ha" moments with C++ was understanding the whole point of references. Declaring a variable as a reference rather than a pointer lets you treat it as an actual instance of the object, rather than a pointer to it -- just what you asked for, you can use a dot rather than an arrow.

I've seen an idiom develop around this, too. By convention, if you're passed a reference to an object, then you're allowed to "use" it, but you don't "own" it. On the other hand, if you're given an actual pointer, then you are now its owner, which in particular means that you're responsible for cleaning it up when you're done with it.

On the other hand, the way that VB tries to hide pointers so that inexperienced people think they're always dealing with an actual object rather than a reference, has been the source of many programming errors that I've discovered in complex systems at work.

[rgdot]

Yay, language wars!   

-tranglos (October 26, 2009, 12:56 PM)

French is the best 

However it is described, I would say PHP, and I am 'exploring' it with smarty and liking it even more

[MilesAhead]

I get the reference to references.  Still it's an annoying quirk of the language.  One can't always insist on a reference just because one doesn't like holding the shift key.

Since you mention the pointer ownership, another thing I found annoying was they came up with auto_ptr without coming up with autoarray_ptr.  Had to roll that myself.  Seems a big oversight for a language that uses arrays of characters as fake strings in common practice.  The whole bit of having to call "delete []" is pretty lame.  No wonder it's portable to lots of hardware.  The programmer has to do so much of the work.  Stuff like that should be built in.
If you allocate an array the memory system should be smart enough to use the correct deallocator without me spelling it out. More DIY parsing crap.

[CWuestefeld]

another thing I found annoying was they came up with auto_ptr without coming up with autoarray_ptr.

-MilesAhead (October 26, 2009, 04:10 PM)

Hmmm. Never noticed. One reason is that by the time this stuff was being developed, I was already moving away from the language.

But also, Scott Meyers' Effective C++ really put me off arrays. I'd only use an array as a last resort, preferring other collections instead, since arrays are completely broken under polymorphism, and the philosophy of C++ is largely to assume that anything might employ inheritance.

That book, by the way, was the big eye-opener for me. Stuff like that warning about (non-)polymorphic arrays really helped me understand how the language really works. But as I said earlier, I still can't rate my skills as a 9 or a 10.

Speaking of different types of languages, did you know that C++'s templates (that is, not the core language itself, but its template facility) is Turing complete? See here: http://stackoverflow...ates-turing-complete

[MilesAhead]

Mainly I used my autoarray_ptr with memory buffer allocation.  I'd assign the array to an autoarray_ptr.  Then when the autoarray_ptr goes out of scope, the destructor deallocates the array.  Saves on couplets of code like
If error {
deallocate
return
}

you just do whatever you want about the error and the memory release takes care of itself when you exit scope.  As for templates, they have their uses although if you try to do something original with ATL you might find your fondness diminishes rapidly.  Macro substitution just ain't the same as true inheritance.  You get half way down a chain of ATL macros and then find you just can't get it to go.  Effort spent unwisely.

[app103]

For me, a real programming language is something you'll get an executable file from. Thus, Java is none either. 

-Tuxman (October 26, 2009, 02:48 PM)

If you would classify both Javascript and JScript as being in the same category, then you should know that it is possible to have a .NET executable (.exe or .dll) from JScript code. And yes, it does have to be compiled. (I posted about it here, not that long ago)

A friend of mine, that is a genuine Javascript junkie, is currently writing an IDE for JScript, in JScript, for the purpose of writing and compiling desktop software. 

And I personally do consider scripts to be executable files, even if they do require a framework to be installed on the computer in which one would be executing it, or if the framework is included in the executable, as in the case with compiled AHK scripts.

If you don't think so, then you probably don't believe that most executables are written in a "real programming language" and probably think the only real one is ASM. To think otherwise would be naive and/or elitist, since almost every executable requires a framework of some sort, even if that framework is already included with the operating system or is the operating system itself. Most executables can not be tossed on an empty hard drive on a machine without an operating system and be expected to be able to be run, all by itself, needing nothing else to support it.

That being said, my language of choice is Delphi. It was the first one that made any sense to me. (and I have this allergy to curly braces that kind of keeps me away from most other languages  )