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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 14, 2019, 06:43 AM »

WM2 has a toggle that you can switch to using a repository.  But it's not inbuilt into the way that it handles files by default in WM2 as it is in WM3.  I never used that feature, nor was it forced on me.

-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 05:24 PM)

The vast majority of even the most textish programs for writers work with a database. Keeps easy access to fragments, versions, chapters and scenes, characters, research etc. Even MS Word has effectively switched to that with 365 or OneDrive. For those that store separate files, it is generally easier to think of those as backups.

The WM developer seems to have developed WM to support his own writing & says he has done all his writing in WM3 for years. There were programming reasons for the switch to WM3, but I suspect that the change to database + bound files was because it worked much better for him as a writer. I'd concur. It makes it much more attractive to me for substantial use.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 05:18 PM »

How about some sort of plain text type wiki system?

-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 03:45 PM)

I've never really liked wikis. I tend to think of them as a database type solution using a single long text document. But they do tick all the required boxes.

I'm not unhappy with the separate file solution because there are always ways of managing files. It's a little more cumbersome up front. In use I'm not sure there's a difference. Depends on whether I stick with Tagspaces.

I haven't thought through a tagging solution yet. Tagspaces is inefficient in its use of space and will probably be inefficient if the tag numbers get too large. Simple words (the usual approach) are appealing but take a lot of typing and reading and hog limited spaces. I'm tending to a code system. # (it's a tag), 0-9 (ten major categories), A-z (52 main sub-categories assuming I'm not precluded from both cases) with the option of further numerals or letters if more are needed. But that's already indicating 520 tags using only three digits (admittedly 52 would be versions of 'other'). I know it would need a look up table, but would actually not take me long to learn 520 codes; I'd probably learn them as I went along. And would be followed if needed by simple words separated by commas. This would be a designed solution. How many tags are really needed if you have good text search?

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 04:09 PM »

WM2 doesn't involve the use of anything other than the files.  There are no supporting files stored on your system.  That's the difference.

-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 02:49 PM)

Where are the repository and backups and history kept if it's a files only program?

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 02:53 PM »

For the reasons I stated at the beginning of the thread, I'm interested in a file based solution because I don't want to be reliant on any single database design (& other reasons). I'm quite happy to use databases, but I'd want the results in separate files reasonably speedily.

On that basis, I wouldn't use Zettlr. The files exist separately, but the tags and linking are tied up in the program.
I'd use WriteMonkey anyway for writing. But again tags and linking are tied up in the program.
Unique IDs and a text search program, might make them usable if the tags are unique strings.
Separate text files make a structure easier to rebuild, but it's not a complete protection. Though it is easier than extracting lots of bits from a single long text file.

So my zettelkasten solution has Unique IDs and tags in the file name with an indexed text search (made reasonably efficient by limiting the folders searched). And each file will be completely separate. The text search will be the only 'database'. I use a tags program, but won't be dependent on it.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 02:29 PM »

I find it interesting that plain text / markdown solutions like Zettlr keep the files in a database.
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).

-Dormouse (November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM)

What struck me as interesting was simply the simultaneous desires for the 'virtue' of simple plain text approach and the functional advantages of a database.
.txt is good; .md or .mmd is equivalently good (despite the existence of contradictory forms of markdown and the need for dual pane (or alternate views) editors so that it's possible for most people to use it) and .rtf is bad (although the text in the file can be read quite easily).

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 02:18 PM »

What do you mean a bound file?  It's a text file on disk.  How is that bound?

-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)

Their terminology, not mine.
My interpretation is that it's simply synchronising the database copy with the file copy. Doesn't impact editing the file using other programs.

On the basis of your video, my guess is that both versions do this in similar ways, although the details of the implementation vary. But know nothing of V2 since I started with V3.

The advantage of the method is that you have two copies of the file - one in the database, one as the file. Each copy can be worked on separately, but will be synchronised when WriteMonkey is active unless you turn the linking off.

-Dormouse (November 13, 2019, 12:27 PM)

This is not how it's working in WM2.  Check my post that I updated, i.e. from http://www.writemonkey.com/features.php

STANDARD AND CLEAN TEXT FORMAT
For maximum portability your work is stored in standard text files. Writemonkey is fully UTF-8 compatible and will recognize virtually all international characters. Supports other encoding standards ‒ Unicode, ANSII …

I really don't like this direction, personally.
...
I think we're finally getting on the same page- a lot had to do with the fact that I'm using WM2.  WM3 actually *does* store its files in a database located in (on Windows) c:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\Writemonkey 3\writemonkey3_sheets.  It can sync with a local file, but it defaults to just storing everything there.

Which to me, is counterintuitive for a 'plain text' writing solution, and creates issues like this one:

https://github.com/w...onkey/wm3/issues/161

Store locally, operate on that file.  It doesn't matter where the file is, if you just store it as plain text.

-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:31 PM)

However you do it, there are potential problems unless you simply want standalone files and rely on file management tools. But many people want the advantages that can be got from a database solution: eg text search, linking, tagging.

The WM3 file binding feature means that you can have both at the same time.
And the database can be read as text.

The risk of a database is that there might be corruption. Most database programs attempt to deal with this through extensive backups.
The risk of separate files is that the link between the file and the program database gets lost (name change, location lost, files moved).

zettlr keeps the files just regular text files in whatever folder you like.  you just open the file or folder.  it has a database maybe for the program itself, but the files are all text files.  the only thing the program seems to do is look for the ID somewhere in the filename or actual file itself.  Is that what you are thinking too?

-superboyac (November 13, 2019, 12:15 PM)

Zettlr saves its files the individual files separately as .md files in its folder. I haven't checked about setting up other folders. If you move them in the folder, it keeps track (and if you move files into the folder, it sees them too). But if you move them out of the folder, it loses them. I assume that its database watches its folder(s) and simply keeps links to the files. The tagging must be part of an internal database. Text search probably is too - I'm assuming it keeps an index because it could get slow otherwise.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 01:20 PM »

From the WM2 documentation

STANDARD AND CLEAN TEXT FORMAT
For maximum portability your work is stored in standard text files. Writemonkey is fully UTF-8 compatible and will recognize virtually all international characters. Supports other encoding standards ‒ Unicode, ANSII …

-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)

They can make the same claim in WM3. It's a plain text database.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 12:27 PM »

What do you mean a bound file?  It's a text file on disk.  How is that bound?

-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)

Their terminology, not mine.
My interpretation is that it's simply synchronising the database copy with the file copy. Doesn't impact editing the file using other programs.

On the basis of your video, my guess is that both versions do this in similar ways, although the details of the implementation vary. But know nothing of V2 since I started with V3.

The advantage of the method is that you have two copies of the file - one in the database, one as the file. Each copy can be worked on separately, but will be synchronised when WriteMonkey is active unless you turn the linking off.

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General Software Discussion / Re: Software for Managing the Production of a Magazine

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 10:47 AM »

Trello's real life example of The Telegraph

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 13, 2019, 03:13 AM »

OK.
First thing is that the dropdown menu is very different to mine. It looks like a typical v2 menu (latest v2.7, no further development), where I'm using the completely rewritten v3 (currently 3.0.10). They're not feature identical.

The second is that it seems to be acting completely as a bound file.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 12, 2019, 10:49 AM »

I think that WriteMonkey's file binding means that it can be regarded as part of a file based system. Also strikes me as similar to Texthaven in some ways - one long text file database displaying separate notes.

I wouldn't have been put off using the program anyway. I'm quite happy using databased programs for specific purposes. So long as the results can be saved into separate files.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 12, 2019, 04:41 AM »

there must be an option to open local files

-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 11:44 PM)

It will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.

-Dormouse (November 11, 2019, 03:17 AM)

And I guess that was my point.  It's an option, not a requirement.

-wraith808 (November 11, 2019, 02:52 PM)

I may have to recant. I can't actually find a way to open a file without it being bound into the database.
You can unbind the file - but that simply discards the link.
You can always edit the bound file with another program - but Writemonkey will give you an alert dialog when you try to open it again.

Text files can also be dragged into repository. New item with file's text is created but there is no link between the file and repository item.

I tried this and it was just a text copy in the repository.

So, afaics, Writemonkey works only on what is in its database. Open and save a file might look like a local file operation, but it isn't: it's importing to the database, binding the file and then saving the bound copy from the database.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 11, 2019, 03:17 AM »

there must be an option to open local files

-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 11:44 PM)

It will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 10, 2019, 06:24 PM »

WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).

-Dormouse (November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM)

It is?  I've never used it that way.  I always work on local files.  This is the first that I've heard of that.

-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 04:21 PM)

The database is local. But a database nevertheless. I don't know if WM2 is the same.

Your documents are stored in database file in the default local application data directory.

Windows: c:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\Writemonkey 3\writemonkey3_sheets
OSX: /Users/[user]/Library/Application Support/Writemonkey 3/writemonkey3_sheets
Linux: /var/local/Writemonkey 3/writemonkey3_sheets
Use Open Folder with Database file from Command palette to open folder containing database files.

Working with text files
Writemonkey 3.0.10 (August 2019) has basic support for text files. Documents stored in database can additionally also be stored as regular text files.

Bind existing document to a text file
Right click existing document name in document pane and select Save as file & bind to document from a context menu. You'll be presented with a regular Save As dialog, where you can choose a target directory and a file name. (WM will suggest the file name based on current document name, but you can change it to anything you want.)

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM »

I find it interesting that plain text / markdown solutions like Zettlr keep the files in a database.
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).
When I look at WM3 it seems to have all the features required for a zettelkasten, but I've never seen it mentioned in that context. Though it's very rarely mentioned in lists of markdown editors either.

I'm noticing that different types of notes may have different and predictable structures. Vacillating between using templates and autotext insert.

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General Software Discussion / Re: Software for Managing the Production of a Magazine

« Last post by Dormouse on November 08, 2019, 05:40 PM »

You do ask for free:
I havent used ToDoList in a long time, but it's an impressive piece of software, and free.
http://abstractspoon.com/

-tomos (November 08, 2019, 04:23 PM)

I think TDL can do it. Came into my mind as I was reading.
I'm sure Trello can do it too.

e.g. which articles is Mr.Jones writing etc.

-tomos (May 13, 2019, 04:38 PM)

Simply assign the task to Mr Jones.

The problem I see with TDL is that the interface can be overwhelming to the unfamiliar.
And there's almost the inverse problem with Trello - it looks very simple but is capable of very sophisticated usage.
In both cases, the user needs to put in a lot of time getting on top of them. Good solutions for people who know them inside out; not necessarily so much to new users.

Given 365, my own question would be why not use OneNote? Can be set up to cover all needs (and others). Free. And presumably already familiar.

But my personal choice, if I had the need, would be TDL. Ticks all the required boxes quite straightforwardly.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 08, 2019, 04:51 PM »

I'm not sure I fully understand 'refactoring' in this context -- I see it defined as changing/improving code without changing its external behavior.

-tomos (November 08, 2019, 04:28 PM)

I didn't appreciate the specificity of the coding reference. Simply used the same word assuming a mathematical origin as in factor again. I've reworded my reference to it. Thanks.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 08, 2019, 11:35 AM »

One thought per note is one of those things that I strive for, but rarely achieve. When you create a note, you rarely know what specific thing you are writing about. That comes in time and as you re-analyze a topic you'll start to see where different facets come in. Also, the archive should reflect your mind: topics you care about will be detailed and have one thought per note. Topics you dont care about will be generic and more nebulous. PHD's have specific knowledge... why do we think we can achieve such specificity for every one of our notes?

-kfitting (November 08, 2019, 04:59 AM)

I don't see the problem with achieving one thought to a note. It's up to you what constitutes a thought.
The big disadvantage of generic and nebulous comes with linking. Very many notes can link to a generic note, but only a very small % will be ones you want to follow whatever you're trying to do.
I don't see any difference between a PhD or a minor new difference either. The quality of the thought might vary. The specificity might vary. Knowledge should vary. But shouldn't be a problem with having one thought.

There could be a photo of a sheep in a field.
A very small child might think nice furry animal.
A slightly older child might think Shaun!
A butcher might think ready soon.
A farmer might think selenium deficiency? (mostly noticing the lush grass).
A thought is a single focus for what was in the mind. More foci simply means extra notes.
There's no reason to push yourself to have all the thoughts you might possibly have unless doing that is your purpose.
Revisiting the note or topic and adding new notes with new thoughts when there's a reason to is sufficient.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 07, 2019, 03:18 PM »

I'm just going to start this.  I can feel myself going through paralysis-by-analysis.  I promised myself to move on when that happens.

-superboyac (November 07, 2019, 11:56 AM)

I'm sure that's the right thing to do. Learn enough to know where and how to start and then go. Revise as necessary. your best way is unlikely to be exactly the same as anyone else's.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 07, 2019, 04:03 AM »

/donationcoder_alarm: set-for-time_5y

-superboyac (November 06, 2019, 06:25 PM)

 

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 06, 2019, 04:37 PM »

Examples of Luhmann's notes are available. Somewhere. I've seen pictures but not transcripts. University of Bielefeld holds the whole collection I think.

Index cards, but a completely different system without notes are Nabokov's cards on which he did most of his writing. I think you can see some of them too. But that is different.

I'm sure you can track down some current examples by frequenting zettelkasten.de. Whether they are good examples there's no way of knowing unless the keeper has proven productivity and quality using them.

I agree completely that it would be much easier to understand what they are doing if you could examine examples.

I'm not concerned about other people's systems. I can see what will work for me, and I understand why. I'm happy to pick up useful hints from other people, but I'll judge whether they will apply to me. Big question for me is whether I have the discipline, but I'm hopeful because it is one workflow. My system will be different to many because it will probably contain a substantial number of distinct and separate networks (that's how I'll achieve one workflow) and will be based on the file system and rtf documents. If I do make a go of it I'll be happy to show samples in five years time

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General Software Discussion / Re: Laggy window resizing/dragging in Windows 10

« Last post by Dormouse on November 06, 2019, 05:09 AM »

Do you have the Logitech mouse software installed? It might help to uninstall that (with reboot after), as it has repeatedly caused issues like you mention, in the past.

-Ath (November 06, 2019, 01:05 AM)

I'm not on Logitech at the moment, but was for many years. My experience of the software was that sometimes it had a mild effect on speed, but sometimes interfered in a big way. I never made sense of it from internet comments or complaints, and concluded that the impact depended on the configuration and system at the time. So I didn't fiddle to improve it. If it was working well, I was OK with it (the features were sometimes helpful) and, if it wasn't, I uninstalled it. It was usually the first suspect for any sort of unidentified lagging.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 06, 2019, 05:02 AM »

I'm pretty sure that the value of the system, still presuming it has one, is in:

• the depth of thought required
• the clarity and precise definition required
• and the thinking required to link that thought to other related thoughts.

Wording well may aid the above, but certainly aids the transfer into a written paper or book.
The atomicity is an essential restriction.

All the rest, all the technical stuff, can be done in many different ways with no effect on outcome.

So, unfortunately, there will be at least two years of effort and hard work before there's any chance of seeing it's really working for you.

very cool.  I am rather excited about this.

-superboyac (November 05, 2019, 05:05 PM)

I think that could be a very good place to start. I'm more daunted than excited, which does't help the getting going.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 05, 2019, 04:47 PM »

I'm pretty sure Dormouse wrote above about first writing, and then breaking down that writing into notes.

-tomos (November 05, 2019, 04:08 PM)

Yes.
First I have the fleeting note, very quick brief comment.
Then my first stage notes where I make an effort to word it.
The the second stage notes where I integrate what I have done so far into a series of single thought notes, trying to be clear and writing with precision. This is the stage where making sensible links first becomes possible. This stage was also very effortful.

But remember, I don't really know what I'm doing. Just puzzling and trying to work it out.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 05, 2019, 04:37 PM »

I feel im doing it wrong.  I think im doing more than one thought.  maybe multiple thoughts.  so mentally, i still feel i am not getting it, lol.

-superboyac (November 05, 2019, 02:48 PM)

I don't know that you're doing anything wrong, except being too wordy. It is hard.

• It will probably be easier when you are more used to it.
• It will probably be easier when you already have an extensive network and are starting with an idea about the thoughts and where they would fit.
• But part of the difficulty, I suspect, is making your thoughts tight and precise. I'm not sure how much easier that can get because it does involve intense thinking.

My guess is that what you have done,so far, is what I have been calling first stage notes. I think you need a gap before going over them (iirc, Ahrens said that Luhmann went through them in the evening). At that point you need to split them into their constituent parts and then write new notes carefully, one thought to a note. There may be a sequence to these thoughts (in which case there's a parent-child sequence) and they will all link to your first note.

When I look at posts on zettelkasten.de, I can't avoid the suspicion that most of them aren't doing it right. Too much linking, too many notes, not enough thinking. Luhmann's main (second) zettelkasten was started 1963 and stopped in 1997: that's 34 years. It has 67,000 cards in one, admittedly wide ranging, area of interest. Less than 2000 cards a year. Assuming 250 working days, he averaged 8 cards a day. Eight thoughts that he decided to record. If he was doing a lot of other things, then maybe one thought every half hour. The thinking isn't easy, achieving the precision isn't easy. There's disentangling the thoughts from each other. And composing the words.