Choosing a CMS

[mouser]

Many dc members who have pages on our dcmembers.com site are using Website Baker and seem happy with it.

[Bamse]

Yes - or you could try one of the frameworks which should have better guarantee for ease of use and less risk of wasting time. If you take a look at this intro video http://www.elegantthemes.com/features/index.html you can see how they are. Simply more options, various type of presets, can include plugins as well. Not even sure this guy call his stuff for a framework but same thing. If you find an almost perfect theme on a framework site this is easiest way to get somewhere fast.

His stuff is so designer classy that messing about with them might be limited but then find another one. Woothemes are very popular http://www.woothemes.com/ and easy, click Theme Playground at bottom, sign up for a WP account and you get own site with all there themes, can test their framework. If this type of setting up a webstie is completely out of the question you don't have to look at other frameworks. I think most will either have even more options or invite to manual work - very useful for those who make a living by doing that.

These companies can also vanish but not likely, also not likely you need to worry about plugins, compatibility problems. They have support forums where you can find answers, tricks and hacks, avoid racing around testing more or less unknown plugins etc.

If interested in one of those Elegantthemes I can probably send you a trial or something. I have license to download page. Not even sure I like many of them, too much design but he is definitely good with Photoshop. Even his FAQ theme http://www.elegantthemes.com/preview/AskIt/ reeks of style.

[mahesh2k]

Woothemes and Elegant themes are not based on any framework, all the themes inside their membership plans are standalone themes. Woothemes contain very heavy js and graphical stuff which in turn creates large theme size. Oh i own the developer license of both the clubs so that way i managed to know about them. Thematic(free) and Genesis(paid) are the only frameworks which i came across which are easy to use. Hybrid (free) and thesis(paid) are too complex to manage imo. Headway framework is also good but it has theme builder built in which takes care of basic users functionality so i don't prefer it for custom designs.

These companies can also vanish but not likely

You worry a lot about such stuff.  Those are professional full time designers and have lot of social media presence so don't worry these guys are not going anywhere.

[Bamse]

Woothemes is based on WooFramework as per Woothemes. Is a matter of definition and who you are that decides what is called a framework. Their definition on front page is perfect since it clarifies difference to most normal themes. Purely technical but Elegantthemes with "best place for newbie" claim on frontpage is not identical to high priced stuff at Genesis site that is true. I knew you would say this but tried to avoid it by adding the group inviting to manual work Btw, I have seen quite a few who have been more than happy to dump every framework and instead use one of the better free themes. They can have more control panel options even. I think frameworks are a bit overrated unless you actually want to "build" for real. I also have doubts about that actually. Where are those sites? And as relevant how much did they cost? Why does Genesis have a big department of ready to go themes, sorry child themes? Don't you think they earn the most money from potential Elegantthemes buyers? They just prefer the business like Genesis smell and have more money to spend. Their stuff might be better for real developers or I would hope so. You don't really need a framework, just another and for some easier and safer environment. Easier when it fits that is. If it really does fit then site is practically done with build in modification tools - no custom design required. On my local wp forum the oldies warn against these solutions because they have seen so many run in to a brick wall and eventually figure out that the only way is the personal way! They do like Woothemes though. Last year they have improved is all I will say. Their point is tools are not super flexible even if that is how they are presented. I can agree but it also depends.

Take a look at the 900+ themes at Themeforest to see why I focus on support and who is behind. Or just wordpress.org. My favorite is a dude who will give updates to those who follow him on Twitter. I am skeptical, need to see some established something to be sure. I would not even say these 2 frameworks are established unless I check activity level. They are on a roll because many prefer ease of use In the case of elegantthemes also very low price for so many themes.

[mahesh2k]

Woothemes is based on WooFramework as per Woothemes. Is a matter of definition and who you are that decides what is called a framework. Their definition on front page is perfect since it clarifies difference to most normal themes.

Not true. Frameworks allows extension and remain the same throughout the child themes. That is not the case of woothemes and elegant themes. They allow child stylesheet and not theme from the featured themes.

Btw, I have seen quite a few who have been more than happy to dump every framework and instead use one of the better free themes.

That is because they've limited needs. Take case of blog networks like b5media and some other where their blogs are in 50+ numbers each with professional design. Adding some free themes will only increase their task of updating code, maintenance, interlinking and other extension work. If you're into software development then you'll understand why people choose framework for repeatability task and code re-usability. If you're just going to blog only then you don't need framework and any theme will do. But then again 500+ themes on theme forest or clubs like woo/elegant then becomes useless once you start to automate things and want to spend less time on theme design. Think about it, do you go on cutting code and replacing it with your own for every free theme out there ? or just extend from framework for better design. It's hard for you to get this point of view if you've no understood the difference between band-air approach vs framework approach. Why re-invent wheel when you have skeleton to work with ? This is the reason we use CMS instead of using single shot solutions every time we do some things. Oh did i tell you how much extra code you get in footer with free themes and with automated theme builders ?

y favorite is a dude who will give updates to those who follow him on Twitter.

Very poor selection of someone who develops themes. Any bot can follow him on twitter and is he going to allow support that way ?hmm. anyway. Frameworks like genesis is backed by copyblogger media which is corporate house since last year. Thematic is free and is now owned by wordpress team itself. Thesis and hybrid both are commercial with their support and very prompt. If you check their support sites then you'll observe dedicated staff and the tutorials. I like hybrid themes model, support costs 25$ each year and framework is free and unless support is given you hit a lot of undocumented walls.

[Bamse]

Yes but not much of what you say if relevant if we think 1 man, 1 website or just step outside of your dev cave Renegade probably do not care so much about these features of some framework. He might be interested in easy to use admin panel which makes up huge part of a framework and what you typically do not get from a normal theme. Wooframework and elegantthemes epanel including stuff like shortcodes are the same in all themes, page templates the same (more or less). Woothemes sidebar manager works with all themes. That is why they are considered frameworks but not all frameworks are a like. Semantics

If you find similar intros to Thesis, Headway which are those I have seen you will notice same focus on ease of use via some sort of control panel, just as must targeting newbies. They go after persons who either have little experience or have previously been fighting a theme trying to make changes. Could also be plugins since they are taken care of to some degree. Keyword is EASY not mass production. Somehow they don't focus so much on their own limitations. There might not be many but depends on match between wishes/ideas and framework, much is simply visual evaluation. If Renegade fall in love with elegantthemes but rush out and buy Genesis he is in for a surprise. Does not matter he dream of 50 child themes (all smelling big time of coming from the same mother) and have read on a forum Genesis is supposed to be good with that. Where some go wrong and later return to a more matching solution requiring less studying and experimenting. As you say they, like min. 9 out of 10, have limited needs. Most people value results higher than features they have no need for.

There are quite a few webdevelopers who buy themes for "clients" at Themeforest shop for much the same reason. Why try to make features you don't have the time or skills to do? They modify based on best fitting theme more than develop. Frameworks are not a solution since they do not have the power to produce so different output (much is eyecandy) so in a way frameworks are also fixed one shot solutions. They trap you. Any showcase page will spell that out as well and they are supposed to be top of the pops. You can typically tell what is in engine room, variations of the same - close to more of the same That they are better for some developers since they can repeat code and their habits, way of thinking over and over is not relevant.

WP is a beast with bugfixing and updates but sure if you are confident whatever you use will get "3.1 ready" as it previously got "3.0 ready" there are no problems or higher risk than with other things in life. But unless you know background etc. for a plugin or a theme you cannot know, only hope. Major problem with those often unknown devs at Themeforest, less with handpicked companies that are ALWAYS mentioned and hyped but still a good idea to check out level and quality of support before jumping in bed with any of them. If foundation for Genesis were wobbling you would never base your development on that framework since you are delivering a product to customers. Will kick your butt sooner than later. Private users have same concerns or they should have.

[mahesh2k]

Yes but not much of what you say if relevant if we think 1 man, 1 website or just step outside of your dev cave

He's considering CMS like Phpnuke, joomla and others and you're not aware of his level of expertise in CMS , so you're saying frameworks don't matter to these mentioned CMS ? obviously blog only site don't need heavy customization hence no need for framework but.. anyway.

Woothemes sidebar manager works with all themes. That is why they are considered frameworks but not all frameworks are a like. Semantics Wink

Sidebar manager and style manager inside theme doesn't mean they're theme frameworks. Every theme frameworks is built on it's own shortcode. have you checked this ? it's not even close to semantic part if you open those themes, there is huge difference in code, thats why we have many frameworks and not themes with same sidebar/style panel.

They go after persons who either have little experience or have previously been fighting a theme trying to make changes. Could also be plugins since they are taken care of to some degree. Keyword is EASY not mass production. Somehow they don't focus so much on their own limitations. There might not be many but depends on match between wishes/ideas and framework, much is simply visual evaluation. If Renegade fall in love with elegantthemes but rush out and buy Genesis he is in for a surprise. Does not matter he dream of 50 child themes (all smelling big time of coming from the same mother) and have read on a forum Genesis is supposed to be good with that. Where some go wrong and later return to a more matching solution requiring less studying and experimenting. As you say they, like min. 9 out of 10, have limited needs. Most people value results higher than features they have no need for.

WP is a beast with bugfixing and updates but sure if you are confident whatever you use will get "3.1 ready" as it previously got "3.0 ready" there are no problems or higher risk than with other things in life. But unless you know background etc. for a plugin or a theme you cannot know, only hope. Major problem with those often unknown devs at Themeforest, less with handpicked companies that are ALWAYS mentioned and hyped but still a good idea to check out level and quality of support before jumping in bed with any of them. If foundation for Genesis were wobbling you would never base your development on that framework since you are delivering a product to customers. Will kick your butt sooner than later. Private users have same concerns or they should have.

   


*face palm*

i give up 

[Bamse]

Well it is how the real WP world populated with real/amateur users look like outside of dev circles - of which there are more than one btw, check Themeforest. Not everyone use frameworks but there are tons of developers. Is close to stating the obvious actually. I would guess people use what they find suit them the best not arguments of what is what. Following promises about endless opportunities, how frameworks present them self, is what make some run back or return to fixed solutions like a normal theme. You seem to miss that. There must be a match or it won't work.

Your point of view is exclusively focused on development as in producing sites, that is what I can't see being relevant. The advantages you focus on are not really useful for that many.

We can agree Woothemes call their engine for Wooframework right? That they use stuff like sidebar, shortcode manger, admin panel as basis for this? The Term is broadly used and recognized as I have described it. Google it.

I don't know what he is wants but I just saw a WP site - and mention of being let down by plugins before, no desire to invent anything, not recognizing the "fun" part of messing about seeking solutions. In other words a potential user for a theme framework preventing most typical problems/annoyances and tasks, that is the whole idea with them and reason behind success of Woothemes.

Wordpress official def. http://codex.wordpress.org/Theme_Frameworks

A Theme framework is a Theme designed to be a flexible foundation for quicker WordPress development, usually serving as a robust Parent Theme for Child Themes. Some Theme frameworks can also make theme development more accessible, removing the need for programming or design knowledge with options pages.

I note they mention Atahualpa which is a theme rarely defined as a framework by either maker or users on the forum. I understand why though. You should pay attention to "usually" "can also"

A better link, Woothemes discuss what is a framework and how close one of their big seller Canvas is to be "fully fledged" http://www.woothemes.com/2010/09/theme-framework-huh/ Author of your approved framework Hybrid comments:

I would consider the WooThemes Framework an actual theme framework and Canvas an advanced parent theme built off that framework. I regularly use the WooThemes Framework and Carrington as examples of what “real” theme frameworks are.

[mahesh2k]

Following promises about endless opportunities, how frameworks present them self, is what make some run back or return to fixed solutions like a normal theme.

Business or anyone who wants to automate design and tasks, don't go for normal theme. period.

Your point of view is exclusively focused on development as in producing sites, that is what I can't see being relevant. The advantages you focus on are not really useful for that many.

Elegantthemes and Woothemes are single-shot solution for bloggers, stylesheet/sidebar panel doesn't mean they have theme frameworks.

We can agree Woothemes call their engine for Wooframework right? That they use stuff like sidebar, shortcode manger, admin panel as basis for this? The Term is broadly used and recognized as I have described it. Google it.

I note they mention Atahualpa which is a theme rarely defined as a framework by either maker or users on the forum. I understand why though. You should pay attention to "usually" "can also" Wink

A better link, Woothemes discuss what is a framework and how close one of their big seller Canvas is to be "fully fledged" http://www.woothemes.com/...0/09/theme-framework-huh/ Author of your approved framework Hybrid comments:

As i already stated, any theme that allows child stylesheet can claim framework status. But that doesn't mean it is production level framework. Start coding wordpress themes and get over the definition to understand what frameworks are and how to label any theme as 'framework'. Carrington is no doubt a theme framework but not all woothemes products are from the core framework, many of those are parent themes(means not meant to extend, and they using any sidebar panel doesn't mean they're frameworks). Same applies to elegant themes, those are parent themes. 

[Bamse]

Making a website does not mean coding a theme! In the real world more advanced group use custom css via  framework type of themes like Atahulapa with 200+ settings, import/export of presets and what not. Has not much to do with the one Renegade tried but both are normal themes according to your definition. To understand obvious difference the term framework pops up again and again. Just how it is regardless you disagree because favorite criterias are not met. I doubt "production level framework" add meaning or sell tickets, so keep that for TRUE frameworks.

Business is everything from a part time hobbyist who will look at Themeforest to big companies who do not rely on other peoples code or graphical work. You cannot define business either but why should those who use or also use Woothemes not be without interst for automated design and tasks? That is probably the very reason they use Woothemes! Woothemes solves tasks via theme wide tools? The way they do is wrong! And they definitely don't make websites, only blogs - that is a very important distinction. As important as declaring Wordpress is not a CMS. Any production value must be one of those faked ones? I think you are a little biased to own choices.

[40hz]

Just as an aside (and to take a break from all the template arcana  ) Website Baker has a portable edition to make it easy for you to try it or work on developing your website. It's an all-in-one that includes a small webserver plus the needed additions, so all you have to do is click and run it.

Drop a copy on a USB key along with a few other portable apps and you can work on developing your website anywhere. I do the same thing with my Python dev toolkit. Works like a charm. 

I have clients that use WB. They're say they're very happy with it.  

[Bamse]

Baker was one of my failed research on support. Some years ago they had internal dev. problems (or so I remember it), nothing really happened. Some talk of forking. I gave up and discovered S9Y (at that time way better than WP). I was wrong and Baker still an alternative. WP has always sucked with control/admin panel, I remember that area was a clear winner with Baker. Means a lot though much might simply be visual tricks and preferences. WP just seem clumsy and annoying in comparison to me. Plugins and hacks can fix anything but still. Same with those admin panels from themes/frameworks, if they feel hopeless nothing good comes out of efforts. Problems I focused on were not so big selection of plugins and themes. But said with tinkering as a goal, not an important feature with Baker once it is approved and in working condition. Less can be better.

But tons more can also be cool mahesh2k, check out Suffusion http://www.aquoid.com/news/themes/suffusion/ just another them it is not. Child themes (more and more hooks and filters though I doubt many use them, yet), Buddypress, custom css, custom php, import/export, own custom post type gui, constantly new stuff coming (also negative but nm for now). Don't focus on need for prettifying or optimizing, do not check number of queries - he knows. Pretend it is perfect! Can you not see this is best described as a framework for theme production? Very very wrong to use that patented term but you can understand where it comes from? If not you are hopeless.

This type of beast is probably best suited for those who strongly believe in personal websites, for better and worse. Only little build-in elegance here, good chance of blood sweat and tears. Pic show how it deals with widgets, including ad hoc widgets - each can be 1-5 columns. Add some widget logic and most is per page, per post, per category, per tag etc.