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576

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2020, 09:07 AM »

Zettelkasten-like system used by Andy Matuschak:
https://notes.andyma...3ViqN3hh3SmrKzjQxWAr

-panzer (May 27, 2020, 07:47 AM)

Thank you
Seems like a good day for having prejudices confirmed 

Maybe I should stop reading now

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2020, 08:14 AM »

From an Ultraedit blog :

Markdown is a plain text formatting syntax aimed at making writing for the internet easier.

That fits with the way I see it, and there it succeeds. I'd use it for that myself with no qualms.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2020, 02:00 AM »

I'm not sure about document structuring.  What I do see is that the cursor position on the preview would have to be fed back to the hidden markdown document.  The commands and text would always only work on the markdown document. I  don't see why it couldn't work in theory but I doubt there's enough processing power on most Android machines to do it in real time. There's already a noticeable lag in preview update and adding the fro to the to would kill it.

Very nice to hear that there are other people with the same wish because it feels totally against this bit of the zeitgeist.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2020, 12:30 AM »

might be OK if I use text files and turn line numbers

-Dormouse (May 27, 2020, 12:19 AM)

OK so long as I use no commands, even italics. Using them seems to switch it to commonmark mode even if it later saves the file as txt. Makes sense as txt doesn't support italics so it does leave me looking ideally for an editable 'preview' mode.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2020, 12:19 AM »

AsciiDoc

-Shades (May 26, 2020, 08:22 PM)

Mentioning this has done me a great service. Used it as a search term on Google Play. No Asciidoc but new choices in Markdown editors. Commonmark. Seems to be far more configurable than the others.

I'm not sure I'd use it for writing,  though it might be OK if I use text files and turn line numbers off, but I'm hoping it will work well for formatting text files.

Has preview + edit and edit panel options. Someone suggested adding preview alone. I'm tempted to suggest making preview editable,  which would solve most of my issues. It's the only app I've seen which looks set up to do that because it has six symbol banks for commands,  four of which are purely down to individual choice.  And up to 30 symbols on each.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 07:48 PM »

Personally,  I just write text. Bits of formatting added later. If needed... I don't care about document formats at this point and txt is fine.

-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 05:05 PM)

Actually, I momentarily forgot the complete truth. I sometimes use italics and prefer to write them as I first type.

And, for some types of writing seeing and using markdown isn't a handicap.  Small part of what I'm doing at the moment though.

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General Software Discussion / Text Editors

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 07:24 PM »

I've been thinking about text editors for programmers and comparing them with the equivalent for writers . And practicing typing by using a pen for writing on my tablet .

As a class, text editors seem stable, feature rich and highly functional; and there's a lot of them for all devices. Nothing similar for writers.

Having been thinking about Android and markdown, I'm moving on tothinking about the editing stage. I can't see anything on Android that would do. And, having thought about it, none of the Windows options I've ever used do what I'd ideally like either. I could design my own app but no feasible way of doing it myself and no obvious market : I read a piece today saying that all text editors were for programmers because editors for writers was such a tiny niche. Low level editing isn't a problem - plenty of options for that. It's the more individual, structured stuff I'm interested in. So I naturally wondered about trying an actual text editor. Search, find, long documents not a problem. Ditto splits, folds, compare, versions, simple stats. I assume that I can scrub the coloured language syntax, and I've seen at least one saying that it would be easy to set up my own scheme for text files.

Just wondering at this stage. I'm not up for long testing because I need to limit the time I spend on a PC. Thought I might look at Editpad Pro and Ultra Edit. Nothing I've seen is an obvious fit, but neither is anything else. I'd like a sophisticated bookmark system, comments and notes essential.

I'm assuming they'd be useless for markdown files because they'd insist on showing the markdown when I'd only want the text.

583

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 05:49 PM »

Ought to be clear that my main issue isn't with markdown as a file format  - though the lack of a truly accepted standard is an issue on its own  - but about the user interface usually presented. I do want WYSIWYG and often I'd prefer to accept a formatting choice rather than typing it. Depends on what I'm doing. I always need to focus on content and words.

From that point of view,  I hope the apps develop and improve rather than being part of a movement to change the way many users prefer to work.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 05:09 PM »

Writing for the web is different. Fewer words, faster speed. And adding a bit of markdown can save faffing around later.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 05:05 PM »

And possibly the key fallacy - Markdown is NOT readable.
It is decipherable but not readable.
Maybe it's different for programmers who are used to reading instructions mixed with content,  but for most people it's not readable even they have learned the instructions.
It would be easy to do a little experiment.
A markdown file with a few a variety of text formats and a few headings. And 3 nouns formatted red and a different 3 formatted green.
Take twenty subjects who have learned markdown: give half the markdown version and half the published version. Compare reading speeds. The next day ask them all to recall the red words and then the green.
I'm sure that the difference in reading speeds will be substantial and that those seeing the words in colour will have a much greater recall.

The implication is that formatting instructions mixed with text impair both reading and processing. I accept programmers may be immune.
Most writers have periods of reading what they have written interspersed with periods of writing. My case is that Markdown interferes with that.

Personally,  I just write text. Bits of formatting added later. If needed. Accepting Hemingway's maxim that writing should be separate from editing, if not the need to be drunk half the time. I don't care about document formats at this point and txt is fine. And text is what I want to look at,  not markdown instructions.

My need for WYSIWYG is during editing,  not writing. Then I need colour. And other things.  And I need to actually see it, not just have it identified.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 04:27 PM »

Now for some of the evangelised fallacies. I read a tale of how txt is permanent but complex document formats aren't because ability to read them is lost over time. All his wordstar documents gone.
In reality,  I doubt he could still access his five and a quarter floppies, txt or not. Conveniently forgetting there's more than one encoding of txt.
And I bet I can find a way of converting his wordstar files,  whichever version they were.
And explaining that Markdown was simply txt and would always  be accessible.
Mmm.
I can imagine an Eureka moment in fifty years time when the Markdown archaeologist finally cracks an intractable file - "Ha, it's a Github flavour,  with the Joplin variations and additions! "

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 04:12 PM »

WYSIWYG was much-loved but not so easy to achieve. Home users loved it, using mice and GUIs.

-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 01:49 PM)

... but programmers not so much. Possibly because they knew what it might hide. And they were keyboard warriors with masses of memorised shortcuts. Which saved them time as their hands never needed to leave the keyboard. Most journos too; early newspaper systems weren't great at GUI.

But that was never me. Despite using a typewriter since I was a child and teaching myself to touch type on one in my teens. Despite being a very fast typist. Most of the time my hands weren't near the keyboard and I was looking at the screen and thinking. When I was on the keyboard,  I was typing words.

But preferably not using a word processor. I've always avoided those for actual writing as much as I can. Nothing to help me as a writer,  many irritations interrupting my thinking. Liked outliners from the beginning because they gave a bit of organisation, faster access to my writing and irritated less.

The majority of people learned to use word processors at school and that's what was made available when they went to work. With  GUIs.
But programmers had their text editors,  keyboard shortcuts and numbered lines to help them navigate. And using them meant being used to working with syntax mixed visually with content.

And for my style of editing the mouse is faster than the keyboard.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 03:42 PM »

Zettelkasten + LaTeX + VS Code = Productivity++ ?:
https://levelup.gitc...ctivity-a7deb650608e

-panzer (May 26, 2020, 01:43 PM)

That was an interesting read.
Who knows if it will prove a productive approach? Seems to me there's a lot of automating and not so much thinking, with multiple break points in the system. And he recommended zettlr for those who liked markdown.

And I noticed the next post down was 'How to be a keyboard warrior' - which brings me neatly to my next point:

589

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 01:49 PM »

The principal competition is a class of software originally developed so that secretaries could use computers to type and format letters,  documents and envelopes. Originally huge single purpose minicomputers. Probably the major usage that drove the expansion of the PC market. Then, with Windows, leveraged by Microsoft in its quest for dominance, it soon squeezed out desktop publishing. Being competitive required compatibility with Word formats and being feature rich.

The emphasis on formatting naturally produced complex document formats.
WYSIWYG was much-loved but not so easy to achieve. Home users loved it, using mice and GUIs.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 01:33 PM »

As far as I can determine,  the major user community pre-evangelism was made up of web writers and programmers (and others used to working in text editors). Possibly still is.
This, I believe, explains how it has been developed. And some of the assumptions of the community.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 01:28 PM »

I'll start with the major genuine advantage for markdown and plaintext generally,  and which often receives little emphasis: it is a relatively light user of computer resources. Memory,  bandwidth, processing power and programming. The shift online has given it a huge advantage.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 01:23 PM »

I've decided that Markdown is a very bad thing for people like me

-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 05:10 AM)

Mostly.

As presently incarnated.

-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 06:36 AM)

I do realise that I need to explain my thinking - and it has taken quite a lot of thought as well as trying it out in many different apps - rather than just making a singularly bald statement. I considered giving it a thread on its own,  but the issues are part of the fabric of this thread and so it is probably best here.

I'll have to do it bit by bit though.  I'm too hungover with hay-fever to maintain any coherence in a single post.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 06:36 AM »

I've decided that Markdown is a very bad thing for people like me

-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 05:10 AM)

Mostly.

As presently incarnated.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 05:10 AM »

joplin?

-sphere (May 25, 2020, 12:45 PM)

Yes, I've looked at Joplin. Quite liked it - which is better than most. But I've decided that Markdown is a very bad thing for people like me, which rather takes away its purpose.

ED : I've found that I can just about concentrate on the preview. And it's not needed if Txt only. Gets the job done.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2020, 05:03 AM »

By any chance have you looked at any of the nextcloud sync offerings.  joplin?  Carnet looks like it has alot of promise.  I like that you can record audio notes/memos.   Much of the functionality of google keep is sloted for the future.

-sphere (May 25, 2020, 12:45 PM)

Carnet does look good but seems to be a Keep equivalent on Nextcloud.
I've never got into Nextcloud. I'm very much in favour of its existence, but at this point, I think it would be more time consuming than it would be worth. And might even add risk to my data instead of reducing it. My security and privacy, such as it is, depends on a number of layers; some stuff never goes Wifi even at home and there are layers within that - and for others public clouds are OK.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 25, 2020, 05:50 AM »

Strangely, just came across a little app on Android that almost seems designed for quick zettelkasten notes. txt or md, autoname using date/time,  notes organised by nestable tags on bottom line, dark mode, option to backup to Dropbox. Written by developer of another very highly ranked app.

Unfortunately four years too late - neither of his apps have been updated since. This is still rated 4.0 despite many recent reviews pointing out data loss etc. Pity, it looked very attractive. Developer just seemed to disappear without warning.

Spoiler

Monospace
 

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General Software Discussion / Re: SoftMaker Office 2021 announced (free beta)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 22, 2020, 07:28 PM »

I suspect it must be hard enough for a company like Softmaker to do well.

-tomos (May 22, 2020, 04:02 PM)

True.  The company seems to be floundering towards a viable financial model. There are the fonts. There was the inclusion then exclusion of em client from their suite. There was the Android HD version, but then not maintained. The perennial 'sales'.
But still, to my mind, too much flitting about to consider as a subscription.

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General Software Discussion / Re: SoftMaker Office 2021 announced (free beta)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 22, 2020, 07:19 PM »

Office 365 has a shitty user interface,

-Tuxman (May 22, 2020, 03:08 PM)

Maybe,  but that wasn't the point. I don't use it much myself - OneNote excepted, some years anyway - except on occasions when I'm sent stuff to edit or review on it. I doubt I'd be willing to pay a once off price, but I'm comfortable with a subscription.  With other software I might not be willing to pay a subscription even though I use it regularly. Annual and major version upgrades aren't necessarily very different to a subscription.
I used to dislike the idea in general,  but I've come to the idea that it is sometimes the model I'm happiest with. Though it does all depend on pricing.

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General Software Discussion / Re: SoftMaker Office 2021 announced (free beta)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 22, 2020, 03:05 PM »

I hate subscriptions

-Tuxman (May 22, 2020, 08:24 AM)

I don't know - I've quite come to like them. Sometimes.  Depends on the value,  depends on them working every year, and depends on whether I feel close enough for a regular commitment.
I think Office 365 is good - many programs,  multiple devices,  multiple users, 1TB each user. Even though I'm not a massive user of any of them.
I'm OK with Evernote,  though the higher prices were too much for me and I stepped them down. I do use it every day.
I wouldn't subscribe to Directory Opus, even though I've always upgraded and I do use it quite often. Here i like to make a decision about whether to upgrade or not.
I can see that something like Trello can only work on a subscription model  - and it's nice that the free version is so good.

I do have Softmaker licences, but can't see myself subscribing. Always feels as they are constantly trying gouge a bit more income.

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General Software Discussion / Re: some useful but less-known software. share your list!!!

« Last post by Dormouse on May 15, 2020, 08:03 AM »

they just created CommonMark which is a semi-standard

-wraith808 (May 14, 2020, 08:23 PM)

But it's not a standard, and not even the most common flavour from what I've seen. And it shows that a developer can hit a problem and just add an extension to deal with it.

I believe that the underlying problem is that markdown is not plain text. It's the old ram in a lambswool coat. Plain text is just text. When you start including display instructions, it stops being plain whatever symbols you use to add the instructions.

My own preference is always to keep text as text with display instructions separately.