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426

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on September 07, 2020, 05:05 AM »

I think there are other ways to achieve/solve the feature/functionality desires you have that make you want to work with "files", while still having nothing to do with a files vs. DB distinction.

-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

But the distinction is key to being able to use the other programs.
In theory, their features could be duplicated, but I doubt they will be and my freedom of choice will be reduced.

427

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on September 07, 2020, 05:01 AM »

I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).

-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

For many I agree the distinction is moot. They want all functions within a program and, in practice, a database works better for them. Because for many things a database can work faster or introduce features that are cumbersome in plain standalone files.

For me the workflow advantage of files is simple: I use other programs with those files. Those programs are standalone and feature rich. If one falls by the wayside, I can use another. I can use them at the same time as I have them open in Obsidian. I am not limited to whatever is available in Obsidian. I can simultaneously use Obsidian competitors such as Foam or Dendron. Because I can do this at the same time there is no switching disadvantage compared to an Obsidian plugin; in fact there's an advantage because I can use multiple windows where Obsidian is limited to one window per vault (apparently a limitation of Electron).

I don't care about when the Obsidian editor becomes wysiwyg because I can just use Typora. In practice I do most of my writing in WriteMonkey. I often have ProWritingAid open on the files.

428

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on September 07, 2020, 04:31 AM »

a very clear and important distinction between cloud/SaaS (Roam, Notion) and desktop/offline, perhaps with optional cloud sync (Obsidian, Anytype).

-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

I agree that this is an important distinction, but most of the database systems have online availability.

A few advertise a local database as a USP, but that brings a heavy price in terms of availability on all devices. My own guess is that these will wither and only the cloud sync (optional or not) will survive. Many programs are happy to advertise the program as free and only charge for sync - they know that's the best combination for hooking new users and making continuing users pay.

429

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on September 07, 2020, 04:23 AM »

all of these systems pretty much import and export various flavors of markdown.

-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

One big advantage of files is that there is no export. I have them and I know what they look like. I never have to worry about changes to what is exported or glitches in the system.

430

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on September 06, 2020, 04:43 AM »

There's also Amplenote

-Dormouse (August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM)

will it ever end

-superboyac (September 05, 2020, 12:55 AM)

Not for a couple of years I think.
To be fair to Amplenote, they've been going since last year, so predating Roam's popularity.

Most older apps will be looking to add similar functionality, without necessarily understanding how it would be used, and the new wave will be adding features.

My recommendation for users is to make a decision about database or files (or any combination according to preferred workflow), pick the app(s) that seem to suit best for now and then just use it(them). Check alternatives only when hitting an issue. They're all going to change and develop dramatically (some will vanish) and it will be easier to compare in a few years. Everyone is aware of what the others are doing,  so the whole herd will add desirable features in a lagged sync.

Wiki-links have become standard. I expect that there will be a lot of pressure for markdown expansions to cover the new usage. I've already seen proposals to replace markdown completely. The new generation of users won't want to be adding HTML for simple features like underlining or colour.

I've noticed a huge proportion of Mac users on Obsidian boards - Linux too -  and believe this is also true for Roam. Obsidian's developers use Windows. Not sure if this has any implications.

Also noticed that Dendron now has transclusions; not sure when it was added. I expect transclusion to be as pervasive as bidirectional links. I can see that having a big impact for Notion in particular.

431

General Software Discussion / Re: desktop pubishing tools and comparisons

« Last post by Dormouse on August 31, 2020, 04:50 AM »

I used to like Xara.
But that was a long time ago.

432

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM »

There's also Amplenote

Imports from Evernote, Roam and Markdown. Exports Markdown.
Mostly advertising itself as a secure, encrypted alternative to Roam.
PWA app like Octo; I'm not massively keen on that myself.
Seems to be aimed at tasks and productivity notes, rather than notes in general.
Free trial but no free tier.
The blog is quite interesting.

433

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 26, 2020, 05:36 PM »

So Notion + Obsidian + Evernote + Things3 + iOS Reminders. Can't convince myself that keeping all those balls in the air at once is efficient. Reminders are specific, and so is Evernote providing he only uses it for OCR, but the others cover all tasks.

434

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 17, 2020, 06:35 PM »

There have been suggestions for Obsidian to support MMD, adding some desired functionality missing from GFM Commonmark. I'm not sure the developers would be keen to add yet another standard to comply with,  but they could just add the elements they want.

435

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 17, 2020, 04:58 PM »

there is nothing stopping a tool like Obsidian from having a "working database" or sidecar XML files or whatever it needs to support those raw text files to have extra features like block references and transclusions, etc

-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)

It would change the way the program worked.
Either you add multiple UIDs to the files (which can be done manually now), which makes reading the raw view harder, or you'd have to put them in a database equivalent which managed that outside of the file. The minute you do that, that database is needed as well as the files. Current process is that the files are loaded when a vault is opened, and that's all that's needed.

I  imagine that someone may try to do what you suggest in a plugin when the API is published,  but I don't see the developers doing it. I'm not sure how such a database would deal with files being added to the folder when Obsidian is closed.

436

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 17, 2020, 04:43 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.

-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)

I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?

- Oshyan

-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM)

I think the distinction is that there is no need to export.  With Roam, you're at their mercy if something happens to the service, which iss one of the reasons that I prefer to work on local plain text files.

-wraith808 (August 15, 2020, 01:40 PM)

Yes.
Roam's markdown is in a database.

The other point is that Obsidian takes no ownership of the files,  even when it's running and the vault is open. Many programs lock a file when it has been opened.

437

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 17, 2020, 04:39 PM »

Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon?

-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

I'm not convinced. Too many blatantly obvious needs have never been addressed.
Obsidian is likely to be resistant to going far out on a limb, syntax-wise. Wikilinks are a growing standard in programs that use them, and Obsidian would probably go with a transclusion syntax if the other programs did too.

It's a fast moving space, I think there will be many more developments over the next few years.

438

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 17, 2020, 04:24 PM »

the three level approach seems pretty straightforward: raw view, transclude view (resolve transcluded content, resolve UID strings as small icons, dots, color styling or some such) and preview view (fully resolved).

-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

Remember, Obsidian is heading for a WYSIWYG,  Typora-like, editor. Raw will be an option, but preview will disappear.

439

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.

Everything written using Roam is contained in its database. It can be exported, but then it's no longer in Roam.

Obsidian's linking and transclusions can be duplicated at any point by programs that can interpret the same syntax and have similar functionality.

PS Roam's exports have to converted to be read in Obsidian.

440

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 13, 2020, 04:38 PM »

That's one advantage that Obsidian has over Roam; there's not much in the way of commitment since it sits on top of text files. 

-wraith808 (August 13, 2020, 04:32 PM)

Which was my simultaneous logic exactly.

441

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 13, 2020, 04:36 PM »

The boom in interest in both Roam and Obsidian, and various third-party stuff, is both good and bad ...
 which one (or other) I will prefer in the not so distant future probably depends on features not yet there or not yet refined. I'm kind of stuck in test drive mode

-Nod5 (August 13, 2020, 02:18 PM)

I don't think of Obsidian as a commitment at all. I see the files as a commitment - and my system of creating and managing them. I'm happy to use other programs in addition to or instead of.

Which leaves Roam and other database programs. And there I am waiting to see. Either they offer a sufficient incentive for me to use them or they don't. I considered believing (despite never having used it) realising that the first year at least would be a write-off; I glimpsed a pot of gold but surrounded by too many red flags to take the risk.

But there's no loss. I don't have to wait where I am,  I can go forward knowing I can change path in the future if I so decide.

442

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM »

That's an interesting take on the situation.
I share concerns about the professionalism of Roam's development. The offline enticement to believers through a PWA, risking data loss if cache is deleted before sync with the online database, just seemed the wrong way for the program to work.
But I hope it does well because a database has advantages that files don't - even if I prefer files for my own use.

I see two more positive possibilities.
One is that he's just substantially expanded the team; I have no experience of development teams, but in other areas it's not unusual for it to take time to become productive rather than a drain on existing resources. Hopefully they predicted this and had stuff like the pomodoro already up their sleeves to give an illusion of movement.
The second is that a huge number of cultists are desperate to fiddle personally with the program. Mostly, it seems to me, because they have a drive to fiddle (enhanced by lockdowns) rather than a particular need. This keeps them attached. Other programs like Trello have benefited hugely from third party enhancement. And I notice the building excitement in Obsidian over the near-term API release.

443

Living Room / Re: Cyph - A potential Keybase alternative

« Last post by Dormouse on July 29, 2020, 06:03 PM »

the fact that they refer to them as niche, means that they aren't likely to support them in the future. 

-wraith808 (July 23, 2020, 08:17 AM)

Marketing speak. Major new feature if they add it.

But don't they claim to be open source?

Cyph is an open source cryptographically secure messaging and social networking service

444

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on July 29, 2020, 04:27 PM »

I think that makes sense for anyone who has VSCode open all the time.

But for someone who doesn't, it's the reverse.

The main programs I always have open now are Obsidian, WriteMonkey 3 and Vivaldi.

And nothing I'd call a zettel.

445

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on July 29, 2020, 12:29 PM »

I can understand that.

I find using Vivaldi helps.
That's what I tend to use for new stuff.

And editing old can be done on quite a few programs.

But I'm looking forward to having a native Obsidian app. I'd be cogitating more if I didn't know it was coming. Or if the developers weren't so fast.

446

General Software Discussion / Quick switching

« Last post by Dormouse on July 28, 2020, 06:03 PM »

One lesser spotted feature of Luhmann's system is his advice to work on anything only for as long as you want and then switch to something else.

Since starting to move stuff into Obsidian,  I've noticed that this has really improved productivity. It's because I now have one system and one workflow for everything. I never have to switch from one set of toys (progs and files) to another. Writing,  research: just do it - project switching is all in the brain. Think about dinner,  need recipe is all the same. Temperature too high? Ditto.

It's not the single boundaried academic system envisaged by Luhmann,  but my brain's never been great at boundaries and this allows me to follow its lead, with no friction. And I don't have to be uncomfortably disciplined beyond what comes naturally.

Not so smooth on Android, but I remain hopeful that will be sorted around the end of the year. 

447

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on July 28, 2020, 05:41 PM »

It's nice to see the expansion in the category even if I'm not going to test anything else out until Obsidian achieves its roadmap unless I hit a glitch  - which doesn't seem likely. The ability to just add them to the system is very reassuring.

448

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on July 22, 2020, 03:56 AM »

And dendron is a new Foam-alike.
Unless it's something else renamed. Another longish list of VSCode extensions it auto-installs.

449

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on July 21, 2020, 11:14 PM »

eloquent.works is another chrome extension for downloading, notes, highlighting etc. Wikilinks etc. Designed for Roam but likely to work on everything.

450

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on July 21, 2020, 11:06 PM »

So Roam has already hit $1m ARR, and pre-paywall graphs are free indefinitely.