The REALITY of Virtual Flight and Other Simulators (Not Just For Simmers)

[CodeTRUCKER]

Hi Folks,

It's been awhile since I have added anything to the discussions, so I thought I might stir the pot with this tidbit...

"If one considers a flight simulation in terms of cybernetics, the experience migrates from the virtual (non-real) world to the realm of the real, albeit a miniature model. The fact is within the real RAM of the computer a real atmosphere is modeled above a real modeled world. On this world is modeled replicas of almost every entity on the planet. The aforementioned, 'atmosphere' has real properties. Gravity, inertia, temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure and density are just a few of the real physical attributes of this model. Within this real model are vehicles. Cars, airport tugs, buses, firetrucks, boats, ships, planes and jets are driven and piloted by invisible real robots commonly called, "A.I."  Lastly, we as real model pilots operate our Pipers, Cessnas, Airbuses, Lockheeds, etc. within this real, modeled world. Like the real-life world, we as pilots of these modeled aircraft are constrained to operate our aerial vehicles according to the properties of the modeled real world; otherwise we will suffer the real modeled consequences. So, the next time you "fly," try to picture the tiny real aircraft that is being propelled through the tiny modeled world within the reality inside your computer."
 ~ CJW

So, is it live or is it Memorex?  

Seriously, does this perception have merit?

[Edvard]

I've often wondered the value of such simulators (flight, driving, space exploration) in the context of learning.  For better or worse, the simulation, no matter how well done, is pretty much a glorified video game.  There are no real consequences for doing something stupid and dying in the 'virtual' world.  "Well," I am told, "that makes it all the better because you can practice until you get it 'right' without dying the first time, which would be even more tragic."  True, but still... 

[40hz]

There are no real consequences for doing something stupid and dying in the 'virtual' world.

-Edvard (August 11, 2014, 06:50 PM)

Well...I suppose you could always wire an explosive charge to your chair and have it go off if you augured in. Would that be realistic enough?

[Edvard]

 

I've got it... rig it so the simulator knows you're trying something stupid, and when you die it uninstalls itself from your computer, de-registers your account and order from their server, and charges you a 10% "restocking fee".


Seriously though, when my son went through driving school, they touted "state of the art simulations" as part of the course.  I was skeptical.  Apparently, that was for some class other than basic driving lessons.  He got live on-the-street driving instruction the entire time, and then passed his final test with flying colors. 
Afterwards, he uninstalled TrackMania from his computer, because now that he was driving 'for real', he felt that the unrealistic simulations in that game might "throw him off" while he built up experience as a beginning driver.

[Target]

I think it really depends on your level of investment

Sims will never duplicate the IRL experience because they can't duplicate the physical feedback (like shocks, noise, or the abject terror of knowing that you're plunging to a fiery death from 30000 feet, or about to plow into a concrete wall at 240kmh)

That said they can teach you routines and habits though, like the use of controls without looking at them, monitoring of instruments and the ability to understand what they're telling you while still concentrating on whatever it is your trying to do (fly a plane, drive a car, etc), emergency procedures.  They can also teach you different skills like navigating or prepare you for unfamiliar situations (emergencies, instrument ratings, a new race track etc).

I don't know any hardcore simmer's but I understand that they can (and do) take it very seriously so for them it's probably as real as it can get   

[Stoic Joker]

I think it really depends on your level of investment

Sims will never duplicate the IRL experience because they can't duplicate the physical feedback (like shocks, noise, or the abject terror of knowing that you're plunging to a fiery death from 30000 feet, or about to plow into a concrete wall at 240kmh)

-Target (August 11, 2014, 11:56 PM)

Very nicely put, and precisely what I was thinking.

That said they can teach you routines and habits though, like the use of controls without looking at them, monitoring of instruments and the ability to understand what they're telling you while still concentrating on whatever it is your trying to do (fly a plane, drive a car, etc), emergency procedures.  They can also teach you different skills like navigating or prepare you for unfamiliar situations (emergencies, instrument ratings, a new race track etc).

-Target (August 11, 2014, 11:56 PM)

And that adds sufficient value to make it worth doing as an initial step. Other bits like the above eluding to the necessity of a  more visceral understanding of the craft can wait until the basics are firmly grasped. The experience needed to perceive and understand the dynamic loads that come into play during a tricky maneuver can wait until one isn't distracted with trying to remember where all the buttons are.

[mouser]

Getting back to the original post, this kind of question has been discussed by philosophers who work in areas of artificial intelligence.. At one point does a simulation of a mind (or society) become a first-class thing deserving of the kinds of things we believe are due to living animals..

[40hz]

Getting back to the original post, this kind of question has been discussed by philosophers who work in areas of artificial intelligence.. At one point does a simulation of a mind (or society) become a first-class thing deserving of the kinds of things we believe are due to living animals..

-mouser (August 12, 2014, 08:12 AM)

Yikes! The  big A-Life Question



That's one of the thorniest questions in the discipline. Made even more complicated by the fact we have yet to reach full consensus on how that applies to naturally occurring instances of "mind" and "being."

And please don't get those gals and guys started on viruses - or the newly identified 'super' viruses or we'll never get out of this conference.

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Note: the picture is of a Mediating Morus in case anybody's wondering. More on that here.

[Paul Keith]

The flaw here it seems is that one sees through the limitation of the "vehicle" simulations and insists on the lack of feedback while ignoring the caveat that "simulators done well" can invoke another side of realistic feedback far removed from reality.

For example: you might not get the danger feedback from your average shooting simulator but you do get disgust from a more focused subject shooter such as JFK reloaded

The list goes on and on...

You might not feel the passage of time as a dictator but you will feel the moral dilemma in bribing a citizen as a dictator in Tropico 5

You might not feel the real life rundown of the election but you will realize how easy and tempting to pander to voters in Democracy 3.

You might not get the grassroots on the ground feel of A Force More Powerful but you will discover the dire helpless feeling in the back of your head whenever the status quo suppresses your run-off-the mill platforms in bringing the government down.

The key idea here is that flight simulators barely scratches the world of simulators.

There are fantasy simulators like the Sims where people torture people and to an extent flight simulators fall under this in that you create one job and the player either simulates it or hack it to be something else more fantastic.

On the other spectrum, there are simulators that are not about simulating the task but instead are about stimulating the disengaged mind.

To achieve this, one does not build from the task but instead builds into the dopamine- the drug of wanting.

[tomos]

[...] Like the real-life world, we as pilots of these modeled aircraft are constrained to operate our aerial vehicles according to the properties of the modeled real world; otherwise we will suffer the real modeled consequences. So, the next time you "fly," try to picture the tiny real aircraft that is being propelled through the tiny modeled world within the reality inside your computer."

-CodeTRUCKER (August 11, 2014, 03:26 PM)

In Tai Chi, one learns 'the form': most people think of it along the lines of a graceful slow dance. Many people learn it that way, but it actually has fighting application: each move is a blocking move, or an attacking move, or both.
Anyways,
we were taught to imagine fighting when doing the form, i.e. to imagine the fighting application of each move. (This naturally helps gets your energy/chi moving nicely.) But we were also told, that if we were ever to use tai chi in a real fight, we should simply imagine that we are doing the form.

Obviously pretty different, yet the quote above reminded me enough of it that I thought it worth posting.

[tomos]

At one point does a simulation of a mind (or society) become a first-class thing deserving of the kinds of things we believe are due to living animals..

-mouser (August 12, 2014, 08:12 AM)

I dont understand "..the kinds of things we believe are due to living animals" ?

[Stoic Joker]

At one point does a simulation of a mind (or society) become a first-class thing deserving of the kinds of things we believe are due to living animals..

-mouser (August 12, 2014, 08:12 AM)

I dont understand "..the kinds of things we believe are due to living animals" ?

-tomos (August 12, 2014, 05:08 PM)

In a nut shell sentience. Or more specifically how "Self Aware" does it truly need to become before we need to feel guilty about "Killing" it. Killing a dog is a crime...but "killing" your car is not. ...But if it was a really (A.I.) smart car ... Would it be?

[tomos]

^thanks got it