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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 29, 2018, 08:14 AM »

Added table for yWriter.

Looks very functional, with versions for Android and iOS, but users who need brainstorming or visual creative development techniques or research would need to supplement with other programs.

I will write a full review and I think I will try writing a book with it and then write a long term use review.

And, since I am visually oriented, I will look at brainstorming/mindmapping/visual development programs. I might add a paragraph, or even a section, on these; depending on whether they seem a worthwhile addition to a workflow.

Wrote the post in WriteMonkey (cut/pasted from and then to BBCeditor). I can see that I might start using it for long documents, (reminder to self - in which case I ought to donate).

I then cut the whole post from DC and put it into BBCeditor. Noticed that DC had cut some of the table formatting, which no longer appeared in BBCeditor as it had when originally written.

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Living Room / Re: What books are you reading?

« Last post by Dormouse on May 28, 2018, 08:34 AM »

I've never contributed to this thread; and feel that  I probably should have done if I'm doing a thread on writers' tools.

So I'll add some post on books I've read over the last 6 months or so.

This is a really good (real life) story about the development of a font. A bit of a who dun it. Higfhly recommended, especially if you have some interest in font design. I didn't know I had, so discovered quite a lot.



And coincidentally fonts played quite a big part in another book I read recently. Not as good, but light and quite charming. I found it a bit tedious in the stretches when it was describing tech stuff and companies that I already knew; and it wasn't always correct. There seem to be follow ups, but I feel that what I have read is complete on its own.



And while I'm on the subject of libraries, I enjoyed the start to this fantasy/steampunk series (I'm saving the others for later). Easy reading, nothing profound.

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General Software Discussion / Re: New PDF editor: FlexiPDF from SoftMaker

« Last post by Dormouse on May 28, 2018, 08:13 AM »

I have a plethora of PDF editors. Tried all the free ones, but moved fairly quickly on to paid. I have worked a lot with PDFs and could never afford to lose time on snags or glitches or missing features or going the long way round (often needed to get OCR if the program doesn't have it included). I have Flexi Pro. It's OK. And inexpensive when on sale.
Don't have Acrobat. Do have Nitro, Abbyy and Foxit (free version was my go to for a time).
I do switch a bit between them, but Nuance is my preferred editor.
I want to like Flexi more (Softmaker is generally reasonably priced and feature rich), but I don't.
I think which works best for you depends on exactly what you want to do.

I'm not an expert on them and can't really list their good and bad features. When I need them I generally have limited time and I want the program to do whatever it is I need quickly and easily. Income was linked to speed and the program cost was just a business expense.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2018, 05:30 PM »

Do you have any conclusions for your own use yet?

-wraith808 (May 27, 2018, 09:04 AM)

Not really. I'm keeping an open mind.
I'm also aware that I'm likely to be using a number of programs to make up an ecosystem/workflow.

I won't be writing any more theses, but think that I have all the other needs.
I absolutely need to write when mobile and also need encrypted files for a fair number of uses. At least I can use my PC much more now that difficulties I was having with vision when on the computer are much improved.
Also have a preference/need, sometimes, to use a pen/stylus which has rather specified my hardware. I have no problems with distraction and am most productive in an aurally and visually busy environment.

Out of those I have used so far, doogiePIM ticks a lot of boxes. But it needs updates to its document handling to make it an option for most of my writing.

The one conclusion that I have reached is that I would recommend yWriter as the first program that any fiction writer should try out. I've only just started to look at it, so that view might change, but I suspect not.
It's free and has versions for Linux, Android and iOS. It covers all the basics of outlining/writing and has a short learning curve for main features. It is pretty obvious what it doesn't do (quite a lot), so anyone needing those has to look elsewhere or supplement yWriter with another program. But very cheap to try out both financially and in terms of time. Doesn't have to be in fiction either; apparently someone rewrote the language file to produce a version designed for writing sermons, so some potential for repurposing. The developer is a novelist himself, so everything is designed with functionality in mind. Plain not pretty. Very much project based though.

Has some nifty features too. Although the RTF editor is quite limited - no tables, can't paste images - the file can be edited in an external RTF editor. And if that adds tables and images, then yWriter is quite happy to show them, though they don't work as designed.

For me, the mobile use is a huge advantage. And it has most of the basic functions. And ProWritingAid can work with its files. I can see that I could use it and doogiePIM to cover most of my writing needs. I will need to continue using OneNote, Evernote and Google/PaperPile. I may need more comprehensive publishing/formatting options than any of these possess - but equally suspect that I would prefer to have that as a separate function anyway. Might also need more visual brainstorming creative techniques than can be got from doogiePIM.

But I haven't finished looking at it and have lots of others to investigate. When I started I would not have anticipated that doogiePIM might be viable for any part of my needs, and had previously dismissed yWriter as having too little functionality and did not know that it now had Android and iOS versions. Will be interested in looking at The Journal too. I would be surprised if it could outcompete the doogiePIM Journal for me, as it would need me to use an extra program and The Journal isn't cheap - but maybe it will.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2018, 04:35 PM »

Is that cleanup behavior something that mouser added?  You used to be able to just use an empty cell- I used it in my reviews several times.

-wraith808 (May 27, 2018, 09:02 AM)

As someone who doesn't really know how to do it, I'm frustrated by the differences.
An empty cell works fine in some of the online generators (not all) and BBCeditor. But not here.
And previews are difficult here because they don't show what's in the spoiler, and you can't press the spoiler button in the preview.

I'm thinking I might start updating the whole first post in WriteMonkey; it has got so long that it is quite unwieldy to work with and the code folding should make it easier; I hope.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2018, 06:04 AM »

I've found the differences frustrating, and it means that I have to do my final check by using preview.

And I seem to have two stray

entries at the end now. I'll have to chase them down.

I tried a number of things at the beginning, but nothing seemed to work, so I gave up and just used the .
I did think about trying to make the . invisible, but then thought my time would be better spent trying to do the review.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2018, 04:51 AM »

I'm thinking of looking at yWriter, WriteItNow, RightNote and Ginkgo in my next little run.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 27, 2018, 04:27 AM »

Tech tip: When crafting (html) tables, getting empty cells to show properly, the standard way of 'filling' them is to use   (non-breaking space) as the content, instead of the, imho rather ugly and disruptive, dot/period.

-Ath (May 27, 2018, 04:18 AM)

I'm using the BBCode here and it doesn't seem to work in that 
I agree that it's ugly and disruptive.
They'll all go when I finish because the cells will be filled.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2018, 03:40 PM »

This is turning into a serious piece of work.. Perhaps it's a good candidate for a featured big review article on the site when it's done...

-mouser (May 26, 2018, 11:47 AM)

Thank you. Not sure I'll be able to live up to that.
I'll give it big. And admit it's a bit like a cuckoo in the mini-reviews.

I've had fun so far digging into a lot of programs I wasn't familiar with.

But whether I can make it work and be useful is another matter. I'm relatively obsessed with workflows rather than programs, but most people have developed their own workflows and are just looking for programs to fill gaps or do something better.

Once I have covered a few more programs, I'll start drafting some tables and paragraphs for the concluding sections and put them up.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2018, 03:26 PM »

Another idea for something to cover that I've found myself using enough to pay for a subscription is Gingko.

-wraith808 (May 26, 2018, 11:41 AM)

Happy to add it to the list. I tried it out when it was in beta but didn't go on to use it. Will be interested to see what it's like now.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 26, 2018, 04:26 AM »

Added Writer's Cafe table.

Very steep learning curve, and it was only towards the end that I could see a workflow for me to write a book with it.  My table may be doing it a disservice as I'm sure I have missed a lot.

There are maintenance updates, but all the major development was done over ten years ago; and it shows.
Still, I did quite like it eventually.

I will do a longer review. I'll need to think of something I can use it with to get a feel for how it works in practice.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 24, 2018, 04:34 PM »

Having looked at a number of these programs now, some familiar some not, I am pleasantly impressed by all so far.

• WriteWayPro - Free, still works (on my machine) despite its age, and is functional across the spectrum;
• SimpleNote - does one thing and does it very well;
• Atomic Scribbler - Free, attractive and intuitive interface, straightforward functional features;
• WriteMonkey - unusual, only encompasses the writing stage, and not aimed at a mouse oriented person who is most productive in a visually busy environment and likes planning and organising visually, but still I liked it and could actually see myself using it (for some things).
• doogiePIM - I'd used its precursor years ago (have only just stopped using it as an effective way of searching a large body of corporate emails) but hadn't used this. I was very impressed with the range and capability of its writing related functions (I'd not used these previously) and will investigate using the program long-term as part of my workflow. Showed me the value of a Journal format for idle notes and observations that can't really be filed, tagged or given a title; dates will make them easier to find again - in theory this works for Evernote et al too, but they just contain too much.

Apart from the first, all are in active development.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 24, 2018, 11:23 AM »

Added a table on doogiePIM. Will do a full review once the multiple document export function has been added (might take me a month or two since there would be so much to review). It's based on the venerable/venerated do-Organizer program that ceased development in 2011 (with a brief comeback in the form of Harmony PIM). doogiePIM is now on v2 and seems to be very actively developed (approx. monthly updates) with fast responses from developer in the forum.

I was surprised at how impressive its writing features were when compared with those of specialist writing programs. The document analysis (from a right click) tells me everything I want to know on first pass.

Potentially a steep learning curve for anyone who wants to check all the features (let alone all the sections), but a pantser could ignore everything else and just dive into typing in the Document Editor. I like investigating features, but I don't think I've begun to scratch the surface (yet). Some people may be put off by interface (I wanted tabs until I realised that the big open page panel did that very effectively).

After using WriteMonkey, I think I want text folding in all programs, but I can't put it as something missing here as no others have it either.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 22, 2018, 09:22 AM »

At least half of mine (ie just a bit of playing with the sample) are in docx format.
This includes the writing from the sample (Huck) & a few I added (just pasting in).
There was nothing I saw in the sample writing that suggested it couldn't be RTF, so I've  no idea how the decision is made.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 22, 2018, 04:01 AM »

I took it from The Atomic Scribbler Blog

There are two key folders inside the project folder: Documents and .atomic. The Documents folder contains a series of documents in Word and RTF formats, each with a number for a name (12.docx, 87.rtf, etc.). When you create a new scene or note, a document is created in this folder to store the contents of that scene. And the best part is, as the formats Atomic uses (Word and RTF) are so common, you can open any of these small documents with Word or any other word processor. Your work is never stored in a proprietary format and can always be recovered — even if Atomic Scribbler is not on the scene.

If it's not that, I have no idea why it feels a little slower than I see with other similar programs. If that's something you don't see, then it must presumably be a system variable.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 05:39 PM »

I'm using it with multiple sections of a larger novel, and haven't experienced the slowdown that you mention.

-wraith808 (May 21, 2018, 04:57 PM)

It's just slower than I expected; I don't know that it changes speed.
I've seen it referred to in another forum, when I looked.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's connected to all the documents in the document tree being saved outside the database as full Word documents. I think other programs save documents within the database primarily as text. Word itself isn't megafast at opening a lot of documents.

I'd need to be more actively interested to get involved in discussions on the forum. I don't rule out changing my mind, but I've got a lot of other programs to look at first.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 04:34 PM »

He does have previous though.
Page Four was abandoned. Then Atomic Scribbler was a paid app. Recently there was a new version (after iirc a period of slow development) with a promise to keep going more this time. Then there was an offer/price reduction; and then suddenly it's free. And now there's a 5 day discount on the SmartEdit add-on.

I'm not convinced that a lot of users of a free program are going to spring for an expensive add-on after trying it for 10 days.

As a program, I like quite a lot about it, but it feels unfinished. Expected features absent. And I can't help but be concerned about why it's slower than expected when running the very small sample file. It should be faster than Scrivener, OneNote and doogiePIM, but it's slower. That's why I worry about what would happen if it were dealing with all the multiple sections of a novel.

I give it easy to understand and looks attractive. I like the ribbon buttons and tabs. But I lack the confidence to make a large commitment.

I hope you are right.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 02:30 PM »

I have now done the table for Atomic Scribbler. I found it attractive, but it felt like a light program, and I'm not sure how it would stand up to a lengthy or heavy piece of work; this impression may be false. Some irritations, and felt a little slow.

I'm not sure about future development. It has just been made free with only the SmartEdit add-on providing an income for the developer. He'd said that 92% of his SmartEdit sales came from the Word version and has just released SmartEdit Pro just for Word. There has to be a question of how much future development the income from Atomic Scribbler and its add-on will justify. The add-on for Atomic Scribbler is fairly basic, but a lot of self published books would have benefited from it.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 11:19 AM »

I submit the different sections and get redlining separate.
Having them as one document with sections would not be tenable.  At least for me. 
And submitting the one doc for redlines and keeping the comments relevant- not sure he would have appreciated that.  He seemed to appreciate having them segregated a lot more. 

-wraith808 (May 21, 2018, 10:43 AM)

I think that you've found that this is a structure that works best for you. There may be other ways, but this suits your thinking the best and makes you more productive.
That gives you a very specific set of needs; other people may find other ways of achieving the same result.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 11:12 AM »

Always on top bugs me to no end.  If I do use them, then I segregate the screen for them, or put them on a separate screen.  Just my preference.

-wraith808 (May 21, 2018, 10:43 AM)

I always use 2 or 3 large screens. Terry Pratchett I think used 6.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 11:03 AM »

One note doesn't work for me.  And I've tried.  Just not good for me in writing.

-wraith808 (May 21, 2018, 10:31 AM)

Fully understand. But, in a corporate environment, it is sometimes the only option.
Can do the outlining in OneNote or Word, the writing in Word (then importing or pasting or linking into OneNote) and export all the text as you wish.

I like the tabs arrangement, but apart from that, I also find OneNote hard to write in.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 03:18 AM »

I did a 1500 word submission for one project, and still broke it up into multiple files- one for each scene in the document.  Having to have one long document is very hard to work with in my experience.

I'd rather have one interface where I can go from document to document in the same session.

And then there's the problem of formats... my client decided to have us submit over google docs, and google docs added in extra spaces, and completely messed up Word formatting, when it states that it imports Word documents.   

But yeah, having something that has references to all of the documents that make up a larger document that can be opened and edited independently has become key to me, since I started writing semi-professionally.

-wraith808 (May 20, 2018, 09:39 PM)

I understand the allure of a single program. But can be done separately.

You can do outlining separately. Even in a sticky or a mindmap, depending on your need. In a small, always on top, window.
Then you can write in anything. Even WriteMonkey will allow easy switching between sections.
What you lose is the automatic re-ordering when you change your outline.
I would always separate formatting from writing even if I intend to use the same program for both. The formatting stage is when I will stick all the files together as one document.

The issue of references and research is a little more complex.

• Have they all be garnered for this particular piece of work?
• Will you use them later?
• Have they been selected from a much larger repository?

The first is much simpler.
But for any, you could just use OneNote (or other equivalent) and have a section or page for you project and have them available on that. And then do your writing on whatever you fancy.

You will note that I am separating the concept of a chunk of the work, from external references. I regard them differently, you may not need to.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 21, 2018, 02:59 AM »

I did a 1500 word submission for one project, and still broke it up into multiple files- one for each scene in the document.  Having to have one long document is very hard to work with in my experience.

I'd rather have one interface where I can go from document to document in the same session.

And then there's the problem of formats... my client decided to have us submit over google docs, and google docs added in extra spaces, and completely messed up Word formatting, when it states that it imports Word documents.   

But yeah, having something that has references to all of the documents that make up a larger document that can be opened and edited independently has become key to me, since I started writing semi-professionally.

-wraith808 (May 20, 2018, 09:39 PM)

OneNote
Available in nearly all corporates that use Word.

I would definitely advise separating writing from formatting/publishing.
Know how the word counts work, and tweak at the end if necessary.
Always seems more intuitive to do it as you go through, but there's acres of pain when there's a glitch. I do feel for you. Been there many times.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 20, 2018, 06:30 PM »

I apparently stepped on some toes ...  I've just never seen where other than writing in a dedicated fashion as a text editor that a separate one is useful in doing serious writing on a project.

I personally haven't experienced any advantages of a separate project manager to keep track of your work and have it in front of you.

-wraith808 (May 20, 2018, 02:38 PM)

Not my toes.

The usual argument is that separate means that you can have best of class in every role and integrated means that everything should work well together.

Most writers it seems use Word (SmartEdit sales are predominantly for the Word plug-in rather than Atomic Scribbler). When I was looking for comments on one of the bits of software, I found some comments on a writers' site saying that their ideal is Word and a pile of (paper) notepads and that anything else is unnecessary. And when I had to do reports where all the base material was in (very large) paper files, I could actually do the writing in any program with text. And I suspect that doing NaNoWriMo or NiaD genuinely from scratch is probably easier in WriteMonkey than Scrivener.

Equally, most writers looking for programs for writing want something comprehensive. They want research, versions etc incorporated. They don't want to be switching environments all the time. And it is a huge advantage to have everything you need immediately available every time you open the program up.

But what do we mean by comprehensive or integrated? Many of the programs we are looking at here are project centred. The research etc is all about a single project. That's fine for a novelist with one (or two) novels on the go, but that starts to become restrictive for someone who has five different writing streams. And if a single project is sufficient, can the programs do what is needed? Screen capture, contain PDFs and documents, OCR (all things which have given me problems on occasion)? And are they suitable for editing and final publishing (I notice that a lot of Mac Scrivener users say they have switched to Vellum for this because Scrivener isn't as good)?

I don't know that I can comment on the advantages of a separate project manager without knowing the precise use you have in mind. If there is an integrated program that does it well for you, then it seems unlikely that a separate program will have any advantages.

For myself, I'm not sure where I am. I can see that I could happily write a book in Scrivener (or equivalent). But then what about everything else? Maybe have multiple instances open. But are there things Scrivener doesn't do so well? I do know that using fewer programs than I do would probably be more productive. I could probably write a short story most effectively in WriteMonkey (apart from the keyboard orientation) or a text editor.

I also know that most writers benefit from having a relatively stable routine which includes the programs they use. This makes it much easier to focus on the work. Actually true for most people, whatever they do.

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Mini-Reviews by Members / Re: Comparative Review of Writers' Tools (INITIAL DRAFT)

« Last post by Dormouse on May 20, 2018, 11:49 AM »

I've been thinking about the best way to post full reviews (when I do them).

My first idea was that I would simply add them to this thread.
I then realised that even the tables were swamping the 'comparative' bit of the review, and thought that I would do the reviews as separate mini-reviews with a link from this thread.
And now, having discovered how to utilise the spoiler mechanism, I think I could just add them to the first post hidden in a 'spoiler'.

I think that separate reviews would be better for finding and discussion, but integrated in a spoiler would be better for reading. Happy to consider all views.