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701

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 06, 2019, 02:24 PM »

thanks, helpful again.  so there's atomicity (which is all the standalone single thoughts/notes) and then the developed thought, which could be like the molecule that pulls all those pieces together. 

-superboyac (December 04, 2019, 01:42 PM)

Atomicity has to apply to all notes. Linking requires atomicity else all notes will relate to most notes.

It is important to remember that Luhmann was an academic and reserved his zettelkasten for his academic work; his academic work was wide ranging but all fundamentally from one viewpoint. The original process is about reading, making notes, and then developing further thoughts and analyses all of which might be linked.
The people who have picked the system up are, it seems to me, mostly junior academics. Post-grads, post docs. They are gathering stuff with the intention of reworking it into other stuff. Everything they write will include a lot of read stuff slightly reworked.
Because they are studying in one area, they will already have a lot of pre-existing knowledge and will be in a position to comment on everything they read. When they do that, they will be producing developed thoughts - but the focus will remain tight. Though maybe not on the focus of the original observation.
Most of them define the original reading or observations as being outside the zettelkasten (personally, I think that's a mistake).
It would be interesting to see a section of Luhmann's zettelkasten in translation. I wouldn't want to be confined by it because my usage will be a superset of his.

702

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 02, 2019, 06:43 PM »

I think a question is a perfectly OK method to focus the notes. Though not the only way. And questions don't necessarily lead to a focused thought: what is the best way from Riga (Latvia) to Sydney (Australia) should never have a simple answer - a set of directions should emerge after consideration of a wide number of issues. Of course, the question could be Note 1. the issues could be notes 2 - n and the set of directions could be linked to them all.

While I think atomicity is important for linking, I also feel that the developed thought needs to be long and developed enough to warrant an independent existence.

Ironically, and off-topic, I've found a use for OneNote. Can be structured to help conceptually, and easy to have very tiny and often temporary notes, store data and work as a shared international enterprise. Once it is complete, everything could be put into separate documents, but, as a WIP. OneNote makes it easier. And, on topic, one of the issues was tiny temporary thoughts which wouldn't warrant existence as a separate document and which shouldn't be consolidated  until there's some clarity about the final form.

703

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 28, 2019, 02:14 AM »

Dormouse, a mouse with a door fetish.
(link to door fetish note)

-superboyac (November 27, 2019, 02:03 PM)

Note content:

door dorm
Dormice embody the Latin virtue of Sleep 

704

General Software Discussion / Re: IS THERE AN ADJUSTABLE "DARK SCREEN" FOR WINDOWS?

« Last post by Dormouse on November 27, 2019, 02:55 PM »

I bought some physical filters sized to cover the screen. A variety of colours are available (seems that there's a lot of individual difference in which colours work best). Certainly not perfect and they impair clarity a little. I don't use them most of the time any more, but do go back from time to time.

705

General Software Discussion / Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks

« Last post by Dormouse on November 23, 2019, 02:19 PM »

Various news reports are indicating that MS (MicroSoft) are pulling away from the idea of going Cloud-only with ON, and are now consolidating the latest versions of ON in the Desktop software.

-IainB (November 22, 2019, 12:08 PM)

That sounds like good news.

I really dislike OneNote's visual ergonomics - to me it looks all "glary" and fuzzy.

-IainB (November 22, 2019, 12:08 PM)

I have a major problem with glare. Monitors especially. Even light levels all round work best. I gave up on dark modes. Too often they retained a light glaring panel. White text on black background can also glare.

My best, but inconvenient, solution has been to set Windows up in reverse colour mode. Tried all the others, but this works best. And then set up my most regular programs with medium dark backgrounds (reddish brown works best for me) and off-white, cream or yellow/orange text.

I still have to limit how long I work at a monitor for.

Photos are a problem. I either have to look at those on a phone or tablet (being smaller, the glare problem is much smaller too) or switch reverse colour mode off temporarily. Occasionally switch a website into reverse colour mode on chrome so that I can see the photos without changing anything else.

I can manage with the ON interface as is - white text on black background for me - but it's not ideal.

706

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 20, 2019, 05:46 AM »

I've just taken on a new project that needs to be completed over the weekend. So, I will need a temporary sources folder and a temporary Temp folder! But by Monday it will be all done and dusted and in permanent zettel. Unless I'm forced to extend by non-completion.

707

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 18, 2019, 05:15 PM »

boy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr.  You can open items using "Quicklook".  They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like.  Pretty damn nice.

-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:20 PM)

You can do this with separate files too 

-Dormouse (November 18, 2019, 04:07 PM)

loooooooooool

-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 04:56 PM)

I do admit that the database solutions are likely to be both easier and faster than separate files. Including, I'm sure, viewing multiple notes. I can feel the temptation.
But I'm determined to lie on the bed that I'm making. Even if it is made of many separate nails rather than a comfortable mattress.

708

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 18, 2019, 04:07 PM »

boy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr.  You can open items using "Quicklook".  They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like.  Pretty damn nice.

-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:20 PM)

You can do this with separate files too 

709

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 18, 2019, 03:54 PM »

I'm going to do is convert them all out of their respective programs (evernote, IQ, etc.) and then bring them into some temporary area for zettlr.  THen, I'll proceed to curating these to those single notes and thoughts.  Let's see if I can hang with that.

I'm taking my prewritten/compiled writings, and breaking it into single thoughts? 

-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:11 PM)

I think you are right.
But also potentially wrong.

If I've taken an excerpt from a publication, my first notes may cover more than one thought (because the source is mixing a few things). The second stage will be in single, separated thoughts. But I still keep the earlier ones.

BUT there's a real question of efficiency and sustainability. There's no point spending time chopping a carrot unless you have an idea what you are going to do with the pieces; if you don't know, leave the carrot as it is. Create connections so that you can go back and find it to chop when you know what you want to do with it.

I think there's a permanent tension between the reflecting and chopping on the one side and working comfortably and efficiently on the other. And some of that is resolved by not spending extra time going through things that are not of much immediate interest.

I'm trying to get into the swing by writing a little article. This makes it easier to make a decision about what's worth working on and what isn't.

710

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 18, 2019, 03:14 PM »

I've provisionally decided on my initial tagging system. Tags in file name and body of file. Any tagging during use will go into the Tagspaces sidecar.

Seven tag fields.
a) Main area of interest (eg Chinese history) + two specific (eg Ming + Beijing). Easy to add extra specifics in there appears to be a need.
b) More notebased:
type of zettelkasten (eg Structure Note)
type of thought (eg observation)
purposefunction of thought (eg weigh different explanations)
c) Project (eg build garage)

An example might be:
#maFood, #sp1Fish, #znStg3, #sp2Herbs, #thMsen #fuDeci, #prReci
Which is simply recording the mental consideration of the different herbs that might be used in a recipe for cooking trout.
The actual success of the match could be recorded in a subsequent note.
There's an assumption that the simpler issues would have been covered in Stage 1 or Stage 2 notes.

The idea is simply to maximise the filtering power of the tags.
Very detailed content would be found through text search.

711

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 18, 2019, 02:47 PM »

Saw on the latest InfoQube update how it was easy to set up 2 way links. Knew it could import Evernote export files. So tried. Three times. Always failed.

Then turned to the, no longer supported, OneNote importer. Seems to be chugging away quite happily.

I'm not necessarily giving up Evernote, but I did want to safeguard my data.
One advantage of using a very big, well known product is that there are usually options for transferring out of their database should the need arise.

712

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 06:47 PM »

Probably relevant (apologies if already mentioned) -- Armando's description of how he uses tag in filenames,

-tomos (November 16, 2019, 04:58 PM)

Thanks.
Very interesting threads. I might have known that Armando would have had something to say on the subject.
Very interesting that I went round the same circles reaching the same conclusions for the same reasons. And that the alternative, lower effort, approaches discussed have since expired. And quite a lot in common with Swords approach. And their approaches are as valid now as they were then. And in the midst of all the software deaths, InfoQube is still going!

Luckily my need is smaller, I'm not trying to manage all my files. I'm avoiding the need for frequent or bulk renaming after the file has been set up. The files I'm tagging will mostly be thoughts; sources will be linked rather than tagged. And the direct links reduce the pressure on the tags for organisation. And the text search will be much more functional because it will only target the notes, not the sources.

713

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 04:12 PM »

Apropos of not very much, though it was one of the places this journey started, I downloaded my Evernote archive today, in triplicate. The notes go back over a decade. And I had the local version before that.

The panic over its mortality seems to have abated. And I still like some of its features, especially the webclipper.
I like the Android app. Probably the iOS one too, though it's ages since I used it.
But I truly hate the web app. I find it hard to read the notes for some reason, and the background contrast between the left panel and the rest hurts my eyes.
I like the Windows desktop version, but the beta looks just like the web app, so the writing is on the wall for me.

I'll have a look at Notion, though the reviews suggest it's not for me. I read that it can do a direct import from your Evernote account (though I'm really not sure I'd want to give it my login details) and that you can export from Notion in markdown format.

Tried Notion. Very odd interface. If you're not a square peg, surrounded by other square pegs in a big square hole then I don't see how it can suit. And it doesn't work. Tried the webclipper twice; both times it copied the top quarter of the page and then stopped - and it's supposed to be the whole page or nothing because it offers no options.

714

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 03:56 PM »

Besides dealing with that unique identifier, the Precise Date in Filename automatically tells you how OLD the note is

-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:34 PM)

Exactly! And puts it into a temporal context of other notes from that time enabling a wetware link.

715

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 03:50 PM »

But this is also interesting to fast and dirty trim DOWN "not very interesting", which might be close to that problem I've wrestled with and explored in this thread, where things like my sound editing knowledge needs to be refined and always on tap, medium things sit there *by definition* they survived the "Not Interesting Culling", *so there had to be a reason why*, THEN when something like today kicks an item into high gear, THEN it gets promoted!

Fascinating! Because as simple as Drag into the Wasteland, you can cull some 30 items out of 50 out of the bimonthly batches, and then very erratically, that serves the purpose of that "you forgot it was there" part of the zettel that I struggled with.

-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:30 PM)

I think that's true. But my Temp folder is outside the zettel. It's part of the path in which is why I can't afford to clog it.
From the sound of it, yours made it through and it had links because you were able to go back to it. Most of a zettel won't be interesting most of the time and much of it maybe never. But it's still there and available.

716

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 03:36 PM »

This feels like my fundamental conceptual clash!
A chunk of time can be spent either deep refining existing notes, or you can ... read new things, which automatically create new ideas!

-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:06 PM)

True, and true. But the method is intended to put your ideas in a form that be quickly understood by you if you revisit, and making sure that they're available instead of vanished ephemera.

How do you decide NOT to read something?!

-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:06 PM)

I find it simple:

• I like thinking more
• I have something like 2000 unread books on my kindle, apart from those on my bookshelves. My problem is deciding what TO read.

717

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 03:21 PM »

if I start with a song in mp3, sometimes I fiddle with the pitch and tempo or both. So the file name itself has some of the adjustment settings compared to the original, to indicate how it was created. It's not a text tag, it's instructions. How does that fit into your system?

-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:01 PM)

I think it fits fine. The Temp folder is intended purely as a waystation. Possibly i should have called it Pending. If there needs to be another stage, then I would stick in another folder - Pending2 say. That's what you're doing. You start with something, think about it and record what you have done.

The Temp folder really does have to work as temporary storage thought. Can't afford to clog up. So you would probably need to set up a Not Very Interesting Archive folder for your Rose Garden Presidential strategy. And you could tag it with a No Entry sign.

718

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 03:06 PM »

One project I tried was to build a "Super text processor" that had all these custom things it could do. So for example if your "main copy" is in RTF, the Super Processor could have native built in "create pure text shadow copy" which you could then parse, get something out of it, and then you paste it back into your RTF copy. Then instead of saving entire files as text, because you only need it for 10 minutes, it's still in the main Super Processor, then it goes away. My text file chess example is right down this alley, though there's gaming examples from my Ludum Dare adventures too.

-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 02:33 PM)

That sounds very interesting. When it comes to it, text translates poorly into spoken language - and vice versa - let alone more visual and conceptual ideas. Reminds me that I must install InfoQube and see exactly what it does now, and how it does it. It certainly gives me a very Borgish vibe.

719

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 01:13 PM »

Sidecar files are another option. But they will need to be kept together and add extra complexity.

It is no wonder than the database solutions are so prevalent.

Of course, there's no reason to confine myself to one method  
I could put the initial tags in the file and in the filename and use a database program for more ephemeral tags. No fiddling. Cross-platform to an extent. And probably I could produce and save a list of all the files with such tags and add it as a separate note.

-internal monologue

-Dormouse (November 16, 2019, 07:10 AM)

I looked at the 'leading' database tagging programs, and failed to convince myself they would make sense for me.
I was already dabbling with Tagspaces.
So, I have provisionally decided to go with Tagspaces, but to use their sidecars. Theoretically at least they can be read on other operating systems; and, if not, they'll be good for short-medium term use and they won't break any links. I'll have to be careful to do any moving around from within Tagspaces, but I'm not intending to move them anyway.

I will put initial tags into the filename and directly into the file, just in case. Once I have worked a system out.

720

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 16, 2019, 07:10 AM »

My big problem at the moment is Tagging.
I go this way, then that.
I'm thinking of the situation in 10 years time (!) when I might have 100.000 notes (!!!).
(I expect far more than Luhmann because he was focused on one academic subject. I intend to put everything in - creative, practical, academic - and I cover many fields. My potential productivity gains come from having one system for everything.)

There will be indexed text search. It is possible on all platforms. I see no reason it shouldn't be reasonably fast. There will already be direct links. The visual benefit submerges entirely with that number. afaics, tags will primarily be filters. They might also operate as cross-links. So how many? How structured? How recorded?

The big advantage of having them in the file name is search speed. But changing the name breaks file links. And text search should be fast enough with indices. ? Another advantage is that it is, relatively, easy to add or remove tags.

Having them in the file itself requires a solution to add and remove content. Possible, but it's an extra step and an extra program. Unless the tags given remain forever unchanging.

Windows metadata is a possibility. But it's very specific and not robust - many changes will break it.

Sidecar files are another option. But they will need to be kept together and add extra complexity.

It is no wonder than the database solutions are so prevalent.

Of course, there's no reason to confine myself to one method  
I could put the initial tags in the file and in the filename and use a database program for more ephemeral tags. No fiddling. Cross-platform to an extent. And probably I could produce and save a list of all the files with such tags and add it as a separate note.

-internal monologue

The big issue remains the design of the tag system. Luhmann didn't have tags or text search. He only had sections and subsections. And not a huge number of either. And only a very approximate ability to estimate creation or modification date.

The ultimate filtering power comes from the the multiplicative effect of using tag categories rather than a single long flat list. Especially when text search should be good at all possible flat list searches. I'm not sure how many categories will have many useful members though. So that is something I will have to work on.

721

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 15, 2019, 04:38 PM »

regarding the zettlr tagging system and the db....i get that there's a database, but let's say zettlr is no longer around, can't you just use the formatting around tags for another program to identify them as tags?

-superboyac (November 15, 2019, 03:26 PM)

Personally I'd test it.
I assume that Zettlr keeps tags and links. Text search should be easily replicated.
Are the tags and links stored with the files or only in the database?
If it's in the files, then you can read the files and test how easy it is to set another program up to work with them. If the tags are in the metadata, it should be easy to find a program that will read and manage them. On Windows.
If it's only in the database - for example a list of tags with details of associated files - then I see no alternative to finding a program that can understand and import the database.

I suspect that the links could be more complicated.

722

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 15, 2019, 11:47 AM »

I've done minor testing with WM binding.

• Renaming file breaks the link. WM simply resaves it with old name.
• Moving file breaks the link. Ditto.
• If the document is still open in WM, it seems not to be aware of any edit done outside WM
• If the document isn't open in WM, it becomes aware of external editing and offers 3 choices:

   

• keep the old WM document and unbind file
• keep the document and overwrite the file changes
• update WM document from file

Looks as if the binding is entirely about creating and maintaining a file copy. When it reopens a document with a bound file, it observes changes since the last saved state. It is otherwise unaware of any editing done outside WM (even if the file is changed and resaved in the meantime) and will simply overwrite them when it resaves itself as the document is closed.

I can cope with this. I might have liked to be able to rename or move the file, but will simply be careful about the timing of any move/renaming.
I don't think there's any chance I will want to edit the same document in WM and another program at the same time.
The big advantage of these files is simply having a file copy of the most recent version of the document, and that always remains true.

723

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 15, 2019, 03:09 AM »

I'll see how it works out.

-wraith808 (November 14, 2019, 11:22 PM)

Makes sense. I'll be in a similar boat if I move major projects in and start deliberately using the database features. Wary of over-trusting the binding/syncing feature. I'd've been on to these details sooner if it hadn't been such a big effort understanding the UI.
-
It's now proving a bit like an Olde Curiosity Shoppe. Having been round it often enough to know where I am, I keep poking in obscured corners finding small features, and then realise how comfortably they solve a particular writing need. All completely obvious I expect to those who understand exactly where his design is coming from, but entirely opaque to me. Doesn't take much of that before I'm all poked out until I can start again the following day.

724

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 14, 2019, 06:16 PM »

I still have WM2, and updates don't really matter to me as long as it works.

-wraith808 (November 14, 2019, 04:16 PM)

Absolutely.

I like using an external previewer for my markdown, and have it so that prowritingaid looks at the output for that preview, all spread out over my computers and monitors.  This doesn't allow that.

-wraith808 (November 14, 2019, 04:16 PM)

Couldn't bound files be used that way?

I agree that it's critical that the software supports the way you want to work rather than you having to fit it. Though to some extent we've been shaped by programs we've used in the past.

From my point of view, WM is a very peculiar program. I've always been mouse based, and used the top down menus and ribbons to know my options as well as choose them. WM has no menus; there's a convoluted path through a Command Palette and various right click options but mostly it is keyboard shortcuts; actually, I'm being too negative, it does do many things with the mouse too. Wouldn't be so bad if it worked the way most writing programs do, but it doesn't. Seems to have a lot of text editor design and functions, though I'm not familiar enough with them to know. It's very different to the usual outliner design of Scrivener, Scribbler and all the others. Outline 4D is very different too, as was(is) Liquid Story Binder.

Nevertheless I like it a lot. Used it very simply to start with, and being able to set it up very easily to suit my eyes made a big difference to my attitude. And the folding always drew me back. Now I keep the wiki open and regularly read through the features. Try and work out how I can make use of each one. I can see how I can manage a major project right through with it (I've tended to write in it so far, then transfer the text to another program; which I will still do to some extent - I don't think I will edit in it). I wouldn't be able to do that if it didn't have both the database and the file binding. I can even see how it could become my main writing program.

725

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 14, 2019, 02:37 PM »

I don't see anything that would beat my current text-only (markdown) setup : neovim + git + Nextcloud

-jeromg (November 14, 2019, 07:46 AM)

I wouldn't argue with that though I can't see it being a good fit for me.

Looking over all the thread discussions so far, and forgetting digressions, the main issues seem either to be around long-term storage or optimal process and workflow.

Long-term storage
File based systems Versus database solutions
Plain text (inc markdown) Versus others (rtf, html, docx, odf, xml etc)

Workflow
Is zettelkasten worth it? What is it, if it is?

The ‘best’ solutions are very personal. We have different functional and usability needs, but it’s also a question of comfort and fit.
Naturally we have looked at a variety of software solutions. I was amused when I saw this quote:

I have grown weary of consumer geeks mistaking the tool for the work, and even more weary of the bizarro apple fan world in which notes apps are somehow second only to task managers for the tech mode du jour.

-https://appademic.tech/zettelkasten-thoughtful-plain-text-note-taking/

which was followed by going on about The Archive!

Personally, I will stick to file based solutions for long-term storage, even if they are less efficient in the short term. But I’m not bothered about file formats: I’ll go with the functionality I need. I anticipate most being rtf, pdf, txt, md, xls, html + images.

I’m not sure about zettelkasten. I see many advantages. I’m sure I can configure a system to suit me. I’ll give it two years, if I can, before making a judgement. I know my problem will be sticking to it consistently enough. When I started I was only thinking that I needed to give up OneNote/Evernote and their peers for anything long-term.

I remain happy to use database solutions for current workloads, with short-medium term outcomes.