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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 11, 2020, 01:03 PM »

I find the easiest way to limit what I am taking notes on is by focusing on what I am aiming to produce. However,  this often means I need to go back and revisit a resource- if I later on I need to produce something different. 

-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)

I think Luhmann probably only made notes with publication in mind. That explains the emphasis on perfecting the prose and his repeating sections in a number of publications.

And you can only have the thoughts you have at the time.  Reading anything again is likely to produce different thoughts.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 11, 2020, 12:57 PM »

I sometimes want to capture concepts in my notes.  Which can be as many as 4 paragraphs to explain:)

-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)

Luhmann would just say you should split them into separate thoughts. But really that's simply to aid the flexibility and specificity of links - if you don't need that there's no point.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 11, 2020, 12:29 PM »

Another program that comes to mind is AZZcardfile https://www.azzcardfile.com/ 

-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)

I'm not sure about the index card analogy. It looks just like an outliner. Am I wrong?

Certainly outliners were my main tool for actually writing for a long time.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 11, 2020, 12:22 PM »

There is an older program called Writers's Blocks

-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)

That's an interesting one.  I know I've heard of it but had never probed further.  I'm not sure I'd look much further than $149.99 with $119 to upgrade. Google Keep can be used in a very similar way (feeding into Docs) and is free and works on all devices. And Scrivener 3 offers more functionality at a much lower.

I like corkboard functions. It's what first attracted me to Scrivener. But they're not enough on their own.

Probably good I didn't see it years ago or I might have dropped the $150 on it, though it may have been even more expensive then.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 11, 2020, 12:11 PM »

As I mentioned, I used something similar to zettlkasten.

-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)

It certainly sounds like a very similar process.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 11, 2020, 12:10 PM »

So I have read Rizvi's post and I am familiar with PARA...  I had some comments- Which might be misplaced because I have not followed this thread entirely.   This person strikes me as someone who is also on a search for the perfect way to organize their notes and learn.  I can respect that. 

-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)

I agree. I interpret his problem as arising from a misperception of zettelkasten. I wasn't surprised at the misperception because it seems to reflect common beliefs.

He suggests he has a problem with remembering books even immediately after reading. Maybe PARA will help. I know little about it apart from a dislike of the way it was being sold.

Personally,  I think overloading with facts is a misconceived target for many - in general those who are good at do it with little effort, and facts can usually be obtained with little effort. Ideas are different because, by definition, they fit with the way you think.

My guess would be that if Rizvi had reflected on Luhmann averaging 8 notes for a working day and that his whole working life was based on similar material then he wouldn't have seen it as a good fit for him in the first place.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 11, 2020, 06:15 AM »

I was looking around at websites and reviews to see if I could find helpful ideas. I started by looking at writers' sites. That was a depressing experience.  Simple storyboards and a host of self-inflicted hamster wheels. Had a quick look at researchers, but found nothing there either. Nor in corporate business-type sites but that wasn't a surprise because I'd expect them to be very focused on project management. So it will take some time to really sort myself out.

Then thought I'd better check that it ticks the needs I'd identified during thread - especially since it was a rather sudden change of direction.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 10, 2020, 03:50 PM »

And here's the start to Forte's description of his PARA system
A Project is “a series of tasks linked to a goal, with a deadline.”
An Area of responsibility is “a sphere of activity with a standard to be maintained over time.”
A Resource is “a topic or theme of ongoing interest.”
The last A is for Archive

I did read more of the first article, but I certainly wasn't going to pay to read the second. In fact, I'd have to be paid to read it and a substantial amount at that.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 10, 2020, 03:34 PM »

Just a look at a few quotes where Rizvi explains his move from zettelkasten to PARA. I think it contains a number of common misconceptions of the zettelkasten system.

I love reading. But retaining what I read tends to be a challenge. I usually walk away from a book feeling good but with only a faint idea of what was in there.
Herein is I think the core of his problem. Zettelkasten is specifically not about retaining the content of what has been read - it's about retaining thoughts about the content.

Its core idea is to create atomic notes, where each note is about exactly one topic (not more than a few paragraphs tops)
By definition, something that takes two paragraphs is more than one thought. Two paragraphs will also contain associations that make the note cumbersome to use.

If you take a lot of notes, the stream of incoming notes can quickly leave you overwhelmed.
The idea was being selective, both in what was read and the notes taken. They had to be worthwhile and had to be separate. There shouldn't be an overwhelming stream.

The key here is that the linking process groups relevant notes together.
I suspect linking to have been less important than many advocates claim. Linking was hard to do with his technology, so he went to great effort to describe his method. He may have believed that the process of having a thought was obvious and didn't need description. Linking was essential, but I don't think it was the key. That was in the process of recording the first thought and then refining it.

And then some comments on PARA

By creating purpose-based folders and putting all notes related to that purpose inside it, we’ve created a new way to group relevant notes together.
This is just the old tagging/folder dichotomy.

How do you reference old notes? When you start working on a new project (like a writing assignment) you search the relevant folders and pull out notes that seem relevant to your task.
Effectively doing the work from scratch when the original thought is no longer in your mind.

His justification is that it avoids the useless work of making notes which are never used. Avoiding Luhmann's recommendation not to do useless reading in the first place.
He also never picked up on his advice to only work on what interests you at the time, and to move on if the interest drops.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 10, 2020, 01:22 PM »

Zettelkasten vs PARA

-panzer (May 09, 2020, 05:36 PM)

Thanks. Interesting reads.
I will admit that I didn't get far with the second before I started skimming and that I was only skimming a phrase in every other paragraph by the end. Pure salesman's spiel (I wondered if I was being sexist, then realised that no female salesperson had ever spoken at me like that). I gave up at his third wrong statement and had been constantly irritated at his exaggeration of a something that had a grain of truth to make his case seem convincing. It came as no surprise that his only achievement was setting up the business that sells this. Though that doesn't mean he doesn't have some sensible ideas. Predominantly aimed at corporates (or, given the Californian base, at people who want their own corporations).

The first encapsulated a number of issues that I have recognised in the zettelkasten movement, many of which I believe misinterpret the underlying method. I'd emphasise that I'm not a follower of the method and have no wish to defend it as such.

I think much of the problem arises from its evangelisation by people who have yet to achieve success using it and who use digital analogies that don't actually capture the essence of the method. I also suspect that it's a method that will inevitably fail for many. In the distant, but still remembered days when I was a student, I remember many students emerging from lectures with many, many pages of notes when I averaged barely half a page (pre-handout days, of course); I could never work out what they were thinking as they made these notes or what they were going to be able to do with them later. Luhmann's philosophy would seem to exclude them because it is based on a lot of thinking and tiny notes. Paradoxically it's possible that this is precisely the group most attracted to the method. I'll look at the two articles next.

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General Software Discussion / Re: WikiWord Linking in MS Word

« Last post by Dormouse on May 08, 2020, 04:05 PM »

In the end, the MarkDown/AsciiDoc story will be similar to the VHS/BetaMax story. BetaMax technically superior, but strict. VHS more cheaply available.

-Shades (May 08, 2020, 02:36 PM)

The VHS/Betamax story was an interesting one. Betamax wasn't actually much better, and worse in some ways. Both launched at around the same time. What decided it was marketing in the US. Tape length mattered there and Sony wasn't willing to match VHS because it would cut their quality. Once VHS had grabbed most of that market, economies of scale allowed VHS costs to be driven down. (And Betamax was intrinsically harder to cut costs on.)

Another similar battle was satellite TV in the UK. And there the winner was definitely lower quality. BSB was conceptually first but the time it would take for it to launch its squarial allowed Murdoch to rush out the small Sky aerial and grab enough of the market to stick a log through the spokes of the BSB wagon.

It's the flavours that will give this one to MarkDown. Without them it would be flat on its face waiting for something better to walk all over it. But propped up by its flavours I think it's just too big to budge any time soon.

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General Software Discussion / Re: WikiWord Linking in MS Word

« Last post by Dormouse on May 08, 2020, 03:42 PM »

That certainly makes AsciiDoc sound better, but you usually need a massive advantage to overturn ubiquity. MarkDown has first mover advantage.

I appreciate that MarkDown isn't really ubiquitous because it has so many flavours but it gives the appearance of it. I probably approximate the average user: I'd rather not have to do it at all, and I'll learn as much as I need and no more. What I use will depend on programs and since the ones I like seem to be MarkDown that takes me to plaintext with the occasional scream or two. I have no intention of learning how to do a table if I can possibly avoid it. I notice that PanDoc will translate to AsciiDoc but not from, but will try go both ways for a variety of MarkDown flavours.

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General Software Discussion / Re: WikiWord Linking in MS Word

« Last post by Dormouse on May 08, 2020, 09:45 AM »

I can see why AsciiDoc might be simpler, but I'm not convinced either are that intuitive once get away from headings, italics etc. I remember trying to work out colours in markdown once: some worked easily but others didn't. I decided it was another case of precise learning required.

In the end, I think ubiquity will beat perfection and that gives it to markdown. I noticed that even Trello works in markdown. Haven't checked the flavour, but I've noticed the GitHub version mentioned a lot.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 08, 2020, 04:13 AM »

Given that I don't really use it for project management, I've been asking myself why exactly I have started to use Trello. The first answer was knowledge management, the way that the zettelkasten movement uses the term. I don't see it like that, just as I'm not convinced I want to use Luhmann's process. It could be as a souped up writers storyboard, but it isn't that either.

It does, however, go back to snippets and thoughts and relationships between them. This works for creative ideas, and for research. Unlike 'knowledge', the thoughts themselves aren't fixed and the relationships beetween them are ever developing and changing. This is the bit that Trello really works for. Sources can be fixed and live in documents. Writing is published and lives in documents. But everything about the process requires a fluidity and flexibility that Trello can provide.

And it's not really like working with index cards. When I'm on a streak, I can do much of my work in a single document in any program; I can flit from one thing to another, as I do whether I want to or not. Then copy the lot and paste into Trello using the multiple card option for everthing on a new line. Works well for the snippets. If I use a journal program, it works well for keeping the date and context. And I can do the puzzling and playing and problem solving in Trello later. Easy, efficient and flexible. 

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 07, 2020, 03:02 PM »

Maybe I'm closer to where I was going than I thought.

I now have Trello dark mode, having signed up for its beta. Should be public in a few weeks anyway.

No longer have concerns about data security.
It exports into JSON and I know that there are programs that will convert it to CSV, though I've never tried them.
And Business Class accounts can export into CSV directly. That's $120 a year but only $12.50 for a month that allows you to download it.
And, though it is itself proprietary, it mostly acts as a linker and manager utility which means working with basic documents is easier not harder.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 06, 2020, 07:39 PM »

I've discovered that dark mode does matter to me even on a tablet. Not so much during the day but very much at night. That massively changes the programs I will use. Squid will be out. Trello isn't ideal, but I can at least access it on a dark webpage imposed by Canary - I'm surprised the app doesn't have dark mode;  I suppose corporate apps are for the day time. OneNote comes into its own; works really well in dark mode on a tablet.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 06, 2020, 07:29 PM »

I'm aware that I don't know exactly where I am, but it doesn't feel very like where I thought I was going.

I blame atomicity and snippets.
A .crd extension that conveys a universal index card format and file viewers that showed the cards would be good. And probably better than the universal portrait sheet of paper on landscape monitors. But snippets are fragments - they only have value from their relationships with other atoms and snippets, and those relationships can only be held in a database, which takes us away from the universal. I fear that even a plaintext account of these relationship would require interpretation and interpreters.

It makes me uneasy. I always accepted the value of databases for work in progress, but this is potentially very, very long-term progress. And a degree of dependency I was hoping to escape. I shall keep sources in documents. I will save interim WIP in documents. My own documents will likely be some form of plaintext. But that's not as independent as i was hoping.

OTOH, it is a move towards primitive. Using atoms is more fundamental than using more complex contstructions.

I'm not quite sure when the index card light switched on. Obviously informed by Luhmann and the zettelkasten movement. I'm not sure I will actually build a zettelkasten as such, and I never used index cards in the past as many have done. But I will be doing it much more in future.
Annoying that I've just seen recommendations for apparently excellent index card programs, one for iOS and the other for Windows. I won't even check them out. There seems to be nothing for Android. I'd prefer a more flexible alternative but think I'm likely to be stuck with Trello. At least it seems big and well supported enough to last for a long time.

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General Software Discussion / Creative Zettel

« Last post by Dormouse on May 06, 2020, 01:45 PM »

As promised, I've had a quick look at how to do a creative story type zettelkasten.

It's mostly a question of remembering the rules:
One thought per card.
Simple not verbose.
Cards should be easily reviewed. Physical cards are easy and a simple digital analogy is likely to make the process easier.
It should be possible to move the cards around.
You need to be able to link them.
Tags can help.

So, what to do?
The answer is simply to record all your ideas, whatever they are, and whether they link in your mind or not. No need for them to be driven by a single project, although the chances are that's how your mind will be focusing when you do it.

An example:

card1 Plot idea. Urchin becomes local hero. #plot
card2 Name Twiglet. Orphan. Small. #char #hero >card1
card3 Friendly inn-keeper. Name Blob #char
card4 Small wooden inn with tables on veranda. The Round House. Owner Blob . #place >card3
card5 Photo of Apron. Cook's apron? #clothing #apron #cook
card6 Name Rosie. Caring cook. #char >card5
card7 Twiglet allowed to collect pots at inn, paid by being allowed to eat any leftovers. #regular event >card3 >card6
card 8 'If he had a horse it would be a shetland with a limp.' #conversation
card9 Rosie has a daughter. #char
card10 Name Rosebud. Very beautiful. #char >card6 >card9
card11 Name Trot. Rosebud's pony. Present from boyfriend. #char #pet >card10
card12 Rich boy Name Bran. Enamoured of Rosebud. #char >card10 >card11
card13 Large substantial land owner. Bran's father. Name Tree. #char >card12

As you can see, this is someone sitting down with a snack bag trying to think of ideas for a new story. Inspiration limited, browsing the web at the same time. Then remembering something they'd heard someone say on a bus but forgotten to write down. It's very static - needs something to drive a bit of movement so they think:

card14 Twiglet moons over Rosebud. #motive  >card2 >card10 >card12
But that feels old hat. And Twiglet is too small, so unrealistic. So:
card15 Twiglet moons over Rosebud's pony Trot. #motive >card2 >card10 card11

Better. Then catch a bit of news on the radio:
card16 Epidemic. #event #motive
card 17 Epidemic is traced back to Trot. #event #motive
But it doesn't really fit any imaginable arc. Maybe for the beginning fo the sequel. So add #sequel1

Obviously this is oversimplified, and it's at a very early stage of imagining.
It should be obvious that this facilitates free thinking, switching around later and building complexities, but also that it is slow and cumbersome. As the process continues, cards can have new cards linked with information and description etc.
This is a plotter's zettel.

A pantser probably has less to gain, but could still do one:
card1 Bob
card2 Sue
card3 Bob says to Sue
Card4 Then they
Card5 Karl interrupts

Just writing on cards rather than in a document. I doubt it's worth it, but does allow shuffling later.

If you were writing mostly about dialogue and words, then each card would be dialogue ideas written as they come to mind. Subsequent cards with sharper words.

I've not found many programs on Android that will do this adequately. Trello can. ColorNote allows [[wikilinks]].
Most can't do links. Many don't allow the easy going through and moving that makes the process work.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 01, 2020, 08:12 PM »

Will comment further when I've checked the Windows version.

-Dormouse (April 30, 2020, 07:47 PM)

Looks as if a new, substantially revised, version of Wavemaker should be out soon, maybe June. So I'll defer any detailed look until then. Scrivener 3 should surely be out by then too.
Developer mentioned Trello & Kanban as some of his inspirations.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 30, 2020, 07:54 PM »

It seems like one should be able to more easily "play" with the cards

-sphere (April 29, 2020, 06:27 PM)

I agree.

Luhmann could obviously do it with his physical cards, but I don't think the digital versions encourage it even though I personally feel it's that playing that is the core to its effectiveness. It is something that Trello facilitates.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 30, 2020, 07:47 PM »

It is called Wavemaker

-sphere (April 28, 2020, 10:32 PM)

Thanks. I hadn't heard of this one. Cross-platform, so very interesting to me.

I don't like web apps generally, but a local browser extension with the ability to sync to Drive is probably as good as they will ever suit me.
I will have to look at it on Windows - which appears to be what it is most designed around - but did check it out briefly on Android. Snowflake, Cat etc as templates for the Writer is good and I assume/hope you can design your own. I tried the mindmap, but couldn't find a way to move the boxes. Seemed like a nice grid implementation, though would use a lot of space; ideally it would tie in with the Writer sections, but it didn't seem to do that. I didn't try the Writer.
I had some difficulty in getting it to start and never succeeded on my phone.

Will comment further when I've checked the Windows version.

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General Software Discussion / Thoughts on Trello and zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 13, 2020, 03:42 AM »

This isn't a review, or an evaluation; likely I will never write one. It's simply an observation in passing while doing other things.

afaics, Trello is able to tick all possible boxes for zettelksten use. It can be free or relatively cheap ($45 a year). It has the advantage of being a robust business program essential for its users, with active development and support. Using power ups, virtually any type of charting or analytical tool is available. It's an online tool but each platform has native apps and boards can be used offline (without attachments, but that shouldn't be a disadvantage if all attachments are kept locally through dropbox or similar).

The commensurate disadvantage is potential cost (3 power ups per board for $45, unlimited comes at a business price - $120 a year and a subscription for the desired power ups may be required). OK for someone whose earning potentially enhanced, but beyond most impecunious students working on a thesis. It also needs to be remembered that Trello's primary function and target market is project management for teams. There's also no guarantee that pricing will remain the same long-term.

I see it essentially as a linking, thinking tool - it's not a repository and doesn't interfere with using a plain text document system. To that extent, a perfect match for the zettelkasten concept.

I don't believe I will ever get into using it in full whizzbang mode. That requires significant thinking, learning and developing a workflow - efficient if you are using it all the time for everything, but otherwise a substantial cost to bear. But I do expect to use it extensively in simpler, cheaper ways. I'm also unconvinced that all the various features discussed on zettelkasten forums when comparing programs actually make the system more effective. I suspect less may be more.

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Living Room / Re: Windows as a tablet OS

« Last post by Dormouse on April 12, 2020, 01:32 PM »

Hardwarewise the Book is excellent

-Dormouse (March 31, 2020, 03:28 PM)

Not quite so sure about that now. The right side of the display has unglued itself. No misuse, just been used as part of a workstation set up for a year or two. With extra fan cooling from below, so no overheating either.

Microsoft repair costs mean it would be easier to replace. But neither option is sensible.
See little advantage in a computer repair shop locally.
Which leaves me contemplating a hot hair dryer or double sided tape.

Everything else still works perfectly well. But I obviously need to get a desktop up and running again. My Toshiba laptop isn't powerful enough to run everything I'd want at a reasonable speed.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 09, 2020, 02:20 AM »

Markdown again.
And I will be using a PC some of the time.

Mostly it doesn't matter - text alone is all I need. But, when I do need it, formatting is important. Most PC programs offer options like rtf, doc, docx, odt , but don't offer markdown. iirc Scrivener is based on rtf.

One thing that interested me was that the WP programs I looked at on Android rarely had good dark modes even when a PC version does. So not good choices for me.

I (used to?) like rtf because it was easy to use and the lowest common denominator for documents with formatting. Now looks as if I'll have to give up easy.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 08, 2020, 06:57 PM »

And the Share function on Android works a lot faster than trying to do the same thing on the PC. For me at least. I assume most here just use ahk etc.