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601
We just added dark mode to the iPhone version. The Windows version doesn't support dark mode yet.
-conceptworld (May 15, 2020, 03:04 AM)

Nor does Android
602
Are they custom? 

https://www.srid.ca/2010101.html  :

Extended Markdown
I came up with the notion of a “zettel link” with its own special URI protocol z:/. The goal is to allow zettels to link among each other without necessarily knowing anything about their exact location. Neuron has a custom MMark extension that supports zettel links. Here’s an example:

This is a zettel file, which links to another zettel: [2008403](z:/)
The MMark extension will replace this with the actual link to the zettel, along with other information like title, as well as possibly date and time.

This might have changed, but I was more concerned about the wider implications.
603
I am really curious about how to contend with hard links these systems require ... and it worked, UNTILL it didn't
I worry about this too.
Unique file names gets you part of the way,  but is impractical if all the links break. There must be some way of leveraging dimanagement to restore links based on search and restoring the database of files.  I've always assumed this to be the process for actual hard drives.
It's one of the issues that makes it easier to delegate the problems to cloud storage.
604
That does make sense. My original thought was that I don't have much use for a NAS in practice,  which is why I stopped using mine years ago, so it felt like possible overkill.  I was assuming that setting up an otherwise unconnected WiFi router with an attached disk wouldn't interfere with anything. The router wouldn't be connected to the network or the Internet. I'd only turn on when I needed to use it which would help security.  Not that anyone else lives within half a mile.

afaics, the rest of the household is happy with all their stuff on their devices or in the cloud.

But I don't think it would be any harder for me to repurpose an old computer than an old router.
If I ever need to move on from the memory stick.
Most stuff can live safely enough on the net.

I will admit that possibility landscape has changed since I achieved high speed broadband instead of crawling and intermittent. Long distance WiFi to the hub at the top of the cathedral tower in permanent line of sight. Internet suddenly became as reliable as the power supply. 
605
Neuron is a Zettelkasten note taking app:
With custom mmarkdown extensions.
At least rtf follows accepted rules.  Is markdown really on a route where people will invent anything they fancy for their own programs?
606
Appears that one of the first tasks is reorganising my storage. I disengaged the NAS many years ago now, and have a host of attached hard drives. Cloud organisation desultory. The cloud can easily evolve slowly with use. But I'll need easy local storage available from all devices for stuff I don't want in the cloud.
Mostly this is a consequence of the Android switch.
But a bit is down to Trello and zettelkasten use depending on stable links.

When I say tasks,  I mean thinking about it. I'm okay with most stuff in the cloud. There's no obvious reason not to use the big folders,  I'd planned for documents before.

For local,  one option is SD cards and memory sticks using direct transfer. No effort required. Low cost.
Another option would be a WiFi NAS, or, more simply,  a hard drive attached to a wireless router.  Unfortunately,  my main router is locked down by my Internet provider - even accidentally pressing the reset button means an engineer visit at my cost. But I've no shortage of old routers with USB connections, and the router not having an Internet connection is probably an advantage.
I think I'll go buttons first, then belt and braces. That should do it.
607
General Software Discussion / Trello
« Last post by Dormouse on May 12, 2020, 12:20 PM »
I've gleaned little in the way of useful tips for constructing a Trello project of this sort. Except to split boards when they get too big. Still looking. Best to just start as everything can be altered later.

I know I'll need a lot of cards which will translate into lots of boards. I've not seen a way of organising boards into hierarchies or folders so I'll use names as a substitute to make the alphabetical sort work - a zettel board on Birds can be called  zetBirds.

OK,  found a way of doing it using cards with links to other boards. This ought to be really flexible and have unlimited capacity.
608
General Software Discussion / zettelkasten
« Last post by Dormouse on May 12, 2020, 09:14 AM »
Seems likely to me that Luhmann only made notes when he thought he might use them to write a paper or book.
So I have no intention to paraphrase or perfect prose unless I think I might use the note like that in the future.
After my first note,  I won't necessarily do another to perfect it or ensure it's only one thought except maybe at the point of making a  link. I will do one if I need to clarify the thought.

I also suspect that going through his cards, making links, having new thoughts etc was only done in pursuit of a paper to write. I doubt he spent time idly shuffling his pack.

Not so much a personal encyclopedia but a paper writing machine.
I'll only go through mine when I've got a reason for doing so too. Though it might not be writing a paper.
609
There is an older program called Writers's Blocks
Google Keep can be used in a very similar way (feeding into Docs) and is free and works on all devices.
And OneNote can have many writers blocks on a page.
Always seemed that OneNote should be an ideal program for writing. Tried it often but never found it so. Not even close.
Needs better text editor,  some writerly tools, more options for the display of textbooks on a page and controls for sequencing the boxes into a document.
610
I did an evaluation of the extent to which this system meets my needs as expressed in the thread above and it feels positive. Very long post, so I've hidden in a spolier.
I haven't read your long-post spoiler yet, but just wanted to say this has been a very entertaining thread. And if you ever publish something for the general public Dormouse, let us know, because what you've written here has always been a pleasure to read.
Thank you!
I'm afraid my pace has been glacial in recent years.
Pushing a boulder up a hill with your nose is never easy,  but twelve boulders are even harder. At least now I'll just be pushing them up the same hill.
611
Diarium...  how do you find it?  Does it not lock you in? 
No lock in. You can export entries for a date range to text or word. Including tags etc.

It seems ok. I don't like the Windows version much. Ticked my essential boxes. I always buy the pro versions to evaluate on Android once I've decided to check an app in detail because I might otherwise misunderstand how it would work for me.

Diaro is similar but doesn't have a Windows version.

I only appreciated advantages of a journal app in this process after my brief time using The Journal. But they're a good fit for note entry.
612
Programs I'm redacting include:
Notezilla. No dark mode, windows centric,  doesn't work on Android as well as I remember. A pity because there's no clear alternative; in practice,  I'll probably just have another device near me and refer to what I need on that.
The Journal. Windows only. Some of the purpose taken over by Trello. Diarium is a reasonable alternative and works on Android as well as Windows.  iOS too iirc. Will also import .enex files. I may decide to write my notes in it, periodically saving to documents - that would give me the advantages of a journal for accessing them.

I'm snoozing the following:
Tagspaces. I'll do tags manually. Files may not be tagged.  I may have to bring it back, but using it takes quite a lot of time.
DocFetcher  - I don't think I'll need it very often. Windows only.
DoogiePIM - Windows only. Has some advantages for editing,  but I'll not address that until I need to. Epitome of a database approach,  though I'd have to say that I've found the database rock solid for over decade. I might use it for email archiving.
Squid  - I really like it  but there's no dark mode. I'll probably use OneNote as the most frequent substitute.

And semi-snooze:
YWriter. I very rarely use it in practice because its best use case (which I'd define as the type of books Simon Haynes writes) isn't a good fit for me.

For writing on Windows, I will use WriteMonkey, but will purchase the Scrivener upgrade.
Not sure about Android.  Pure Writer, Markor, Joplin. Pure Writer works well for something like a book. Jotters, SimpleNote. I've no need to hurry to a final decision because they are all interchangeable so long as I remember to backup any databases into standalone documents.

I will continue to use Evernote and OneNote but avoid locking data in them.
613
I did an evaluation of the extent to which this system meets my needs as expressed in the thread above and it feels positive. Very long post, so I've hidden in a spolier.

Spoiler
I want to control what stuff is local and what is on the net. I want to control access. I want to be able to use my stuff on Linux, Android, iOS. Maybe even Mac. I want to be able to work on all my devices. I don't want my workflows constantly disrupted by software updates or bugs.
It just about does this.
All devices,  tick.
Control what is local - not so easy, but that's down to switching to Android; possible but more effort because the default is web.
Undisruptable workflows. Not under my control but likely to happen in practice - too many paying corporates depending on stable workflows.

I appreciate the advantage of database based programs, which is why I have stuck with them and tried and bought so many. And I don't discount using them. But I'm considering having them only for an active use rather than stuff in general.

With files, I can use virtually any program to create them, and to modify them; I can use them on all devices, access them from the internet and never have to worry about import or export.
Probably does tick this. Everything in files and documents. Trello is just an active working bit. But it is very core.

One other thought I had, triggered by some zettelkasten reading, was the possibility of being more productive if I was working with fewer programs and more simply focused on files and links. Working on files, it's easy to switch to a different program for a particular feature (and back again) without disruption. Trying to do that with database programs is definitely not like that. It leads to doing one set of things in one program and another in another etc. And there's permanent feature dissatisfaction.
Does tick this one.

I remain not even slightly persuaded of the need to go full Markdown though.
I feel as if I might have stumbled on to a very slippery slope and am gathering speed, with Markdown the next bump in the road, and no clear idea of an end zone.
And so it came to pass.

my view of zettelkasten is that it is a workflow with a process that aids remembering and thinking. Index cards are incredibly flexible.

I recognise a number of key concepts:
Atomicity. One thing, free standing.
Linking. I appreciate the types of links: direct (card-to-card), positional. Also that cards can be removed and mixed and used with a group of other cards and then replaced exactly where they came from.
I think it does this too.

Each card is for a thought, not information - information is external in the sources.
And definitely offers this.

I can see that his system meant that he collected his thoughts when he was reading in a format that made future thinking and use easier. When he was working things out, he played with his cards, making new ones when he had new thoughts. And when he came to write something up, he just went through the selected cards and wrote them out. Simples.
-
Dormouse link=topic=48938.msg433261#msg433261 date=1572036464
And this.

I want to keep folder structures as simple as possible.
That's entirely possible.

Initial system plan (file based & text, not necessarily zettelkasten).

Two top level folders – General and Local. Identically named subfolders.
General to be available to other devices through Dropbox or equivalent. Local not.

Next level:
Thoughts (as in zettel, because I can see that it’s a good idea)
Sources  (including facts I record or material I devise myself)
Writing (any output using material in the first two). To include an In Progress folder (I’d intend to use this to temporarily copy files I’m using, and anything used to help organise my thoughts.
Temp (for new documents that may still need tagging/renaming/allocating).
Redacted.
There's no need for folder organisation because all related functions are managed in Trello. Only exception is local stuff.

For me it's all about workflow. My understanding of the zettelkasten process produces high easy output that will allow me to keep my eye on the ball all the time (and should be effective whether it is really zettelkasten or not). That will mean quickly producing and saving new documents. I think everything else can be done later as a batch process, but, if not, it has to be something I can do without thought because otherwise the workflow gain has gone.
The Trello system is super good for workflow.

Luhmann went into an office and did his academic stuff - I do many things (and quite a lot of quick switching) and I can't see why the system would not work for anything that requires thinking. Creative writing, building a garage, organising holidays. One input system is so much easier than working out where everything should go.
Absolutely.  Trello system does this.

I think that some of the key zettel principles for this are:-
That you have a single integrated workflow, that you become expert in using
That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.
The processing should produce growth in your understanding, but will also duplicate that understanding in the zettel
Which means that you can go away from that part of the zettel for ten years and still pick up from where you left off, long after you will have forgotten most of the detail of what you had learned
Trello system should work well for this.

I intend to put everything in - creative, practical, academic - and I cover many fields. My potential productivity gains come from having one system for everything.
Trello should do this particularly well.

I've not decided what to do about snippets.

The defining feature of a snippet is that it is short. And individual snippets are disparate and unconnected.
It could be a brief description
An interesting word usage
An interesting fact
A nice phrase
Ideas
Overheard conversation
It could be something I've written myself or have read.
I'm not happy with my webclip and snippets system.
This is what ultimately broke the pure documents approach. Trello should handle this  well. Something much easier done in a database system.

One of the things that I have noticed in this process is that the user interface suiting me is much more important than features. There's a minimum feature set, but otherwise it is the user interface all the way.
And the visual approach of Trello suits me well.

Trello, for example, will probably go even though it's a good personal fit.
Strange how quickly things change.

Paradoxically I can envision the possibility of using Evernote more not less. It's quite good at merging notes for saving into documents.
No longer need to merge notes.

In my mind, the zettelkasten works like having my own room in the Bodleian, with my current activities laid out on a large table in the middle, surrounded by small bookcases with the books needed for immediate references.
If I want more, or am moving on, then I can wander round the main library collecting books and other materials as I need. And if I need to do a detailed trawl into less familiar materials, I can ask the librarians to bring me stuff that might be relevant from the stacks.
Should work well.  Tags will be manual, but I'd started tending in that direction anyway as it seemed less effortful. Many options for document search.

Two things struck me that could be enhancements to a zettelkasten program/process for some people for some usages.

Coloured or labelled links like spider diagrams or mind maps.
A limitation is that it imposes a consistency in the use of the concepts behind the links.
Doesn't suit my approach but would really help some.

Tiny notes attached to other notes.
I use stickies attached to documents, but the method is irrelevant.
These mostly arise from subconscious thinking, or something read in passing, rather than deliberate cogitation. Small thoughts, nothing complicated, so if I'm developing a character it might be 'Douglas Firbrae' or 'red hair'; I'm not going to actively think about it at the time - probably actively working on something else - but I don't want to lose the idea and I need it to be where I need it when I do actively work on the topic.
I think even this should be possible with a variety options.

No system copes well with independent small thoughts and small notes. Database systems work best (The Journal is okay). I simply combine them to create documents to put into the archive. Time will tell whether this is effective. I think it will work where the combination is on a single topic, but thoughts aren’t always like that.
And the Trello system should cope fine.

— 16:57 —
 

614
Thank you everyone for your ideas, advice and discussions.  :Thmbsup:  :-*
It's been a long journey, but I think Ihave reached a destination that will work - and if it doesn't I should appreciatee the issues and alternatives. It feels as if we have delved in every nook and cranny and levered boulders to see what might be lurking beneath.

The system isn't one I ever imagined, and there are aspects that aren't ideal. I haven't eradicated dependence on databases, but all my own data sits free and accessible and dependence is reduced to tags and links in one program only. Workflow should be smooth and simple as against a rather Heath Robinson set of steps for a pure document approach, and it copes with fragments and snippets that aren't so easily coped with in pure documents. And its accessible on all devices and OSs - though that's through a web base.

The workflow is incredibly simple. I spend most of my time in a text program - any text program - writing, and spend most of my playing and working out time in Trello. Using specialist programs (mindmaps, spreadsheets etc) whenever I want.

If I'm reading and want to make notes or take quotes, I do that in a text program. I can switch around as often as I want. If I'm thinking of ideas or jobs in the garden, then they can all go in too. New line for every new think. Periodically, probably when I'm gettingfed up with doing that, I will copy them all and paste into Trello as separate new cards; that bit should take less than a minute.

The Trello housework is about linking and tagging and then I can move cards around and play and think, maybe, of new ideas to be written as above.

Pure writing again done in a text program - possibly the same one but maybe not. A Trello card will contain links to the document.
The system works as well for researching medication, planning holidays or evaluating anti-flood products as it does for writing and research.

I have the same continuous workflow whatever I'm trying to do.
All my data, including the content of the notes, is held in documents independent of any database.
The only things held only on databases are the tags and links and the structured relationships between cards. I'm hoping that Trello is big enough and stable enough to outlast my need for it. Plan B is to use CSV exports to switch to anouther appication or find another way of managing.

I will report back on progress and snags.

EDIT addition - just to point out that I will do initial tagging when I first write note, which should make recovery a bit easier if Trello fails.
615
The aim of one's work is pretty important.  So yeah publication.... My guess is that his system was also bolstered by a general mastery of the subject and material.
I'm sure.
For myself, if something is just an idea, I will write it in the form that makes most sense to me.
If I see it being published, i will try to form words suitable for that publication. Little extra work for me since I can't help think options for phrasing.
616
I also cannot use a system like trello as I am not in control of the data.
I haven't checked, but I think you can set Trello up so that it only holds links to data you hold on your computer. That gives you control of your data  - but you would need to be careful about what you put on the cards.
I'd prefer it not to be web-based but I can live with it and it would hard to make the cross device multi team functions work in any other way.
617
I am curious if you looked at liquid Story Binder?
Oh yes. I remember struggling with it over a decade ago.  Feature rich but one of the least integrated programs I have ever used. I don't think it ever attained drag and drop.

I don't think it's been updated for a decade or so. He took down the forum years ago.

I have licence somewhere but wouldn't recommend it to anyone today when there are much better options. I hadn't come across Writers Cafe until a few years ago. Similar vintage,  hasn't been updated for years, fewer features but you can see that it actually functions well as a working tool.
618
I find the easiest way to limit what I am taking notes on is by focusing on what I am aiming to produce. However,  this often means I need to go back and revisit a resource- if I later on I need to produce something different. 
I think Luhmann probably only made notes with publication in mind. That explains the emphasis on perfecting the prose and his repeating sections in a number of publications.

And you can only have the thoughts you have at the time.  Reading anything again is likely to produce different thoughts.
619
I sometimes want to capture concepts in my notes.  Which can be as many as 4 paragraphs to explain:)
Luhmann would just say you should split them into separate thoughts. But really that's simply to aid the flexibility and specificity of links - if you don't need that there's no point.
620
Another program that comes to mind is AZZcardfile https://www.azzcardfile.com/ 
I'm not sure about the index card analogy. It looks just like an outliner. Am I wrong?

Certainly outliners were my main tool for actually writing for a long time.
621
There is an older program called Writers's Blocks
That's an interesting one.  I know I've heard of it but had never probed further.  I'm not sure I'd look much further than $149.99 with $119 to upgrade. Google Keep can be used in a very similar way (feeding into Docs) and is free and works on all devices. And Scrivener 3 offers more functionality at a much lower.

I like corkboard functions. It's what first attracted me to Scrivener. But they're not enough on their own.

Probably good I didn't see it years ago or I might have dropped the $150 on it, though it may have been even more expensive then.
622
As I mentioned, I used something similar to zettlkasten.
It certainly sounds like a very similar process.
623

So I have read Rizvi's post and I am familiar with PARA...  I had some comments- Which might be misplaced because I have not followed this thread entirely.   This person strikes me as someone who is also on a search for the perfect way to organize their notes and learn.  I can respect that. 
I agree. I interpret his problem as arising from a misperception of zettelkasten. I wasn't surprised at the misperception because it seems to reflect common beliefs.

He suggests he has a problem with remembering books even immediately after reading. Maybe PARA will help. I know little about it apart from a dislike of the way it was being sold.

Personally,  I think overloading with facts is a misconceived target for many - in general those who are good at do it with little effort, and facts can usually be obtained with little effort. Ideas are different because, by definition, they fit with the way you think.

My guess would be that if Rizvi had reflected on Luhmann averaging 8 notes for a working day and that his whole working life was based on similar material then he wouldn't have seen it as a good fit for him in the first place.
624
I was looking around at websites and reviews to see if I could find helpful ideas. I started by looking at writers' sites. That was a depressing experience.  Simple storyboards and a host of self-inflicted hamster wheels. Had a quick look at researchers, but found nothing there either. Nor in corporate business-type sites but that wasn't a surprise because I'd expect them to be very focused on project management. So it will take some time to really sort myself out.

Then thought I'd better check that it ticks the needs I'd identified during thread - especially since it was a rather sudden change of direction.
625
And here's the start to Forte's description of his PARA system
A Project is “a series of tasks linked to a goal, with a deadline.”
An Area of responsibility is “a sphere of activity with a standard to be maintained over time.”
A Resource is “a topic or theme of ongoing interest.”
The last A is for Archive

I did read more of the first article, but I certainly wasn't going to pay to read the second. In fact, I'd have to be paid to read it and a substantial amount at that.
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