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5951
These are not issues that powerful elites in the area of our defense and security apparatus should have more than a peripheral opinion about. I don't buy that the President's hand was forced in these cases (particularly the ones where the promises were broken *immediately*).

We don't have (and never will) the full story on anything that happens behind the curtains, so we don't know how peripheral the interests actually are.  When people get power, they tend to want more, not let people off the chain.  The only other explanation is that he is a complete sociopath, because the indications in body language and speech were that he really did believe and want this.  And I don't think it's that simple either.  And we have to consider- Day One for us as it relates to him was not Day One for him.  There's a lot of preparation and briefing that goes into the transfer before inaugural day.  So what is considered campaign promise broken on Day One isn't really so.
5952
I find it interesting how so many are willing to concede our government's right to spin stories, send off flames, bully pulpit and dead-cat its opponents, and lie at will to the public - yet very quickly label any nose tweaking or blunt editorial characterizations in return as being "partisan politics."

Our enthroned leadership has made an art form out of using so-called "partisan" political strategies and debating techniques. That's one of the reasons they have been - and continue to be - so successful.

FWIW, I think we can have "intelligent" and "measured" and "respectful" dialog about this whole problem until the cows come home. The only way any real change will come about (or even become possible) is if the general public feels sufficient anger and disgust about what is going on to force changes. Because it isn't ever the "bright promise for the future" that stirs our public out of its chronic political llethargy. It's the hard realization that "enough is enough" and that "I am no longer willing to tolerate this behavior - starting now" that brings about social change. Something that our politicians understand and have learned to take advantage of all too well. Because they're often the first to remind you "you're better than that"; and that "you shouldn't talk that way"; and suggest you try to "exercise proper restraint and some consideration with your comments" - because they certainly aren't going to do the same with theirs.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

And I think that's where it is in the end.  And ideological struggle.  Not for dominance, because it is the fight that is important.  We talked about Obama before, and how utterly he changed his tune.  We've talked about entrenched politicians, and how inured to the demands of the office over the demands of the political arena they become.

They don't start out that way.  But they make concessions in order to serve the greater good.  And that slippery slope eventually claims them.

Lies are damn lies, no matter if they're told for the greater good.  And if you tell one, you're more willing to tell the next.  And then descend to their tactics.  And then, by the time you win, you look back at the broken road that you took to get here, and can't really pinpoint the time that you became what you are... which is what you formerly hated.

The Truth should stand on its own merits.  Or it's not worth the medium used to deliver it.  And anything you tarnish it with makes it somewhat less than it should be.

We need to come together as one voice, one people... sex, creed, race, beliefs, orientation be damned and say that we stand for Truth and the Rule of Law, and we will accept nothing else.  No games, no twisting of words, nor hyperbole to exaggerate the situation.  And not let any of those things divide us.  That is why I'm against any hint of partisan politics as usual in the phrasing of any of this.  It's about something greater than that, IMO.

Of course, as you say, YMMV.
5953
Two mind-numbing articles by Paul Craig Roberts:

I'm afraid you're crossing the line into partisan politics.

I agree with the overall conclusion you're presenting here. But, bad as the situation that they describe is, these articles do contain untruths and exaggerations (I won't enumerate them, because I don't want to dig deeper into the political quagmire). Presenting things in this manner undermines the effort in the long run: it gives the bad guys the opportunity to rebut trivial details while ignoring the big picture, and it robs us of (some of) the moral high ground.

Agreed +1
5954
Ok...it's 17:15 EDT on 25-Jun-2013.

Mssr. Putin has just confirmed Mr. Snowden is currently standing in the 'international area' in Moscow's airport.

The US is insisting Russia has the legal authority to expel him immediately, and is insisting they do so.

Tom Hanks lived in an airport for ages and he's done alright for himself.

On a side note: Your level of detailed insight on this stuff is truly frightening at time.

Think of me as Shepherd Book character in Firefly... ;)

***

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: It's of interest to me how much you seem to know about that world.

Shepherd Book: I wasn't born a shepherd, Mal.

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: You have to tell me about that sometime.

Shepherd Book: [pause] No, I don't.

 8)

That was at once the coolest and the most infuriating line Whedon's ever written. :)
5955
Well, it's pretty much always come down to settling rather than choosing in every election I was ever old enough to vote in.

Why settle for the lesser evil?  Cthulhu for President!

(Really... when I don't have a choice, I write in Cthulhu... what?  ;D)
5956
Of course, without a public trial, it's not really a help... but still...

This lad will never come to trial if those in a position to try him have anything to say about it.

Yeah... that was my point.  And if he does, it won't be in any shape or form public.  National Security, natch.
5957
I'm guessing "somebody" got cautioned. And in no uncertain terms.

Yeah... all it takes is a not-so-circuitous reference to the grassy knoll to put them in line...

I still remember the last big thing that Kennedy said before that fateful day about the powers-behind-the-throne and blowing the lid on the whole thing.

Meanwhile having watched a few James Bond movies, if this Ed Snowden critter basically did one of the "top five worst acts of treason" ever, why is it this hard to take him down? What am I not getting that a nice infiltrator team with a $25 million budget including some payoffs can't get done in a week? Or does *that* create the "Game Changer" martyr they're desperately trying to avoid? Why all this prancing around with the spin campaign?!

Because the movies make the work look easier than it is, and Snowden is (was) an insider.  He's no babe in the woods... I think he did his research long before-hand, especially into what happened to the other NSA whistleblowers.
5958
DC Gamer Club / Indie Royale Account and Collection
« Last post by wraith808 on June 25, 2013, 01:35 PM »
Indie Royal has an account now so you can register your purchases with it: http://www.indieroyale.com/collection

You also get bonus content depending on how many bundles you've purchased.  Very surprised at how many I've purchased... and how many others there were.
5959
^ Ummm... I think that was 40s descriptive title.  ;D
5960
But you can't make a fully informed vote that is representative of your constituents if you don't have all of the information.  That sort of strips away any illusion of a representative government.
5961
Had this happened back in the 70s, there would be no question whatsoever about impeachment, resignations, and criminal prosecution of government officials and officers over any of this.

The thing about it is that it wasn't as endemic back then.  Everyone, from the top to the bottom is in some way involved, whether by empowerment, willful obliviousness, or outright complicity.

This is the thing.  I don't think that what Obama is now is what he was when he ran.  But that thing about absolute power?

In a moment of candor, he admitted that he'd been wrong on some of his votes as a Senator, and some of the things he'd said about his predecessor, because he didn't have the full picture as a Senator.

Think about that.  He'd been asked to take a vote on things that he didn't have the full picture on.  What's wrong with that statement?  What does that say about this situation, and about the US government in general?
5962
If Snowden is caught and brought to trial, here's what I think the next move ought to be:

Snowden should claim that everything he said previously was a lie. And there's no law against telling lies to our enemies, right?

To make its case, the government would need to prove that the stuff Snowden said really was true, thus forcing the government to admit, at the very least, the truth of Snowden's claims.

That increases the trolling to even more epic levels.  I LOVE IT!

Of course, without a public trial, it's not really a help... but still...
5963
So is he *really* good... or *really* dead?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...orld-europe-23045790

And when I say *really* dead, I mean like these others...

MI6 Codebreaker Found Dead in Bag Was Likely Killed, Coroner Says

http://www.wired.com...der-death-foul-play/

Dead Codebreaker Was Linked to NSA Intercept Case

http://www.wired.com...8/codebreaker-death/

Two Strange Deaths in European Wiretapping Scandal
European investigators are tracking the mysterious deaths of two security experts who had uncovered extensive spyware in their telecommunications firms.

http://www.alternet...._wiretapping_scandal

The Men Who Knew Too Much? NSA Wiretapping Whistleblowers Found Dead in Italy and Greece
Adamo Bove and Costas Tsalikidis: Both uncovered a secret bugging system and both met untimely ends.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3305

The Athens Affair How some extremely smart hackers pulled off the most audacious cell-network break-in ever

http://spectrum.ieee...ty/the-athens-affair
5965
Living Room / Re: Google Reader gone
« Last post by wraith808 on June 24, 2013, 02:24 PM »
Well played, and valid point :)
5966
This is definitely humor.. not sure if this is silly humor, so I posted it here.

Achievement-Unlocked.jpg

Epic Troll Status: Edward Snowden

epictrollstatus.jpg
5967
Sometimes I'm glad that the powers that be are so willfully and utterly stupid and prideful.

There was an obvious out that they could have taken to both make themselves look better and move public opinion on the matter- and all it would cost them is a bit of face.

The documents are already leaked, right?  So catching Snowden is a matter of pride, and nothing else.

Offer him a pardon in exchange for his testifying on the Hill in committees designed to look into (and bury) the whole thing.  Make the right noises about being respectful of the 4th amendment, and things being more than they seemed and that the are concerned about privacy of the average American, and those that have contact with them.

It's quite unlikely that he would believe them.  Which would erode his position if he was unwilling to deal, since he said that was his primary goal.  If he did, he could be dealt with in court- not towards him, but towards the whole policy and the leaks, which is the larger issue.  Destroy him and his testimony from that front, and you have a win.

This way?  There's only a slim chance of winning this...
5968
Living Room / Re: Google Reader gone
« Last post by wraith808 on June 24, 2013, 01:31 PM »
Someone else tried that... and posted the results here somewhere, I think...
5969
This is playing out like a movie...  I'd be grabbing the popcorn if not for the fact that this hits so close to home  :-\
5970
@IainB - the inclusion of said line muddied that for me, especially with the included point towards the basement... sorry for that.
5971
it's a true story and too important to bury there.

Were you being... sarcastic?  I don't think this is a true story.  Especially since there have been many variations on it... and that would be considered murder in any jurisdiction that I know of.
5972
Remember that whole "Keep the FBI"?

I'm just going to leave these right here...

FBI Admits It Surveils U.S. With Drones

Why Won’t the FBI Tell the Public About its Drone Program?
5973
If we just keep throwing out any bum that won't follow the rules, I hope they'd learn that *we* are the masters, and get their acts together. After just a few cycles, things would get better.

There was a conference made up of movers and shakers from several fortune 500 companies.  The moderator of one of the main sessions asked a question: if you could play by the rules and in 10 years double the profits of the company and have a stable company, or in 2 years triple it, knowing it would be out of business in 5, which would you do.

The majority said the out of business in 5.

One of the checks and balances against the abuse of power, I think, is the existence of people already in power, paradoxically.  Without that bulwark, and without knowing the quality of those being put into power, and knowing that they had a limited time to get what they could, I think you'd see a lot more slash and burn.
5974
But here's the rub...when voting someone out...who steps in to fill the void?

That is the question, is it not?  And there's no way to answer it really.  In our current system of politics, you have to have money in order to serve.  Either yours, or someone else's.  That's indicative of a larger problem.  And the people that would be best for the job in general don't have any aspirations towards it.  That's how you usually tell that someone would be good for the job.

So that was my point in the whole don't start talking boot people out.  What fills the void will probably not be any better... and may just be worse.
5975
Unintentionally funny in light of this conversation... I received a note of a graphic novel on sale on DriveThruComics.  Looked a the sample... and had to post this screen cap.

huge image and vaguely political
judgedredd.png

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