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5426

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 08, 2013, 09:19 AM »

Surveillance technologies beg to be abused. And if the Snowden revelations have shown anything about this technology, they've shown us that the temptation to 'abuse and extend' is apparently too great to resist. Especially when it comes to the people most entrusted not to abuse these capabilities.

Surveillance technology is a drug. And addiction, in the guise of "mission creep" (that clever euphemism for abuse and violation of trust) inevitably follows.

-40hz (October 08, 2013, 08:39 AM)

Power corrupts and such?

But that's given as a truism (as you did here), and I think it still hinges on something that hasn't been addressed as the difference between monitoring such as the NSA and outside forces and monitoring that some people are advocating here.

Respect vs. Disrespect
Interest vs. Self-Interest

If you respect the person, and have their interests at heart, then the corrupting influence won't come into play.  That comes into play when there is a measure of control rather than guidance needed.  At this point in my son's life, the only thing I do is ... nothing.  There's a GPS in his cell phone, but I've only accessed it once in the situation that I described- the first time he rode with someone else (also a minor) to a city about 1.5 hours away.  And that was just to make sure that he was in the area since he hadn't called and not hung up half-way there since the phone went straight to voicemail.  And we had a talk about it when he got home, and he knew that I'd used the GPS and why, and what he could do in the future to mitigate the circumstances.

This is down from having all sorts of things in place from internet filtering to keeping track of the games that he played and the videos and music he was exposed to and limiting his xbox and computer playtime and all sorts of things.  As he began to be able to make those choices, those things fell away.  Why?  Because he was getting older, and has the right to make those decisions and they won't interfere with our primary goal- to make sure that he is equipped to be able to assess and make his own choices, and deal with the consequences of those choices.

So I think that (like many other things) it's not the technology that's to blame.  It's the people.

(and it's sad that my joke fell flat on everyone!  especially considering that there are some firefly aficionados here.  And that firefly love of the themes should show where I come down on the fence in all reality...)

5427

General Software Discussion / Re: Objective upgrade Netbook with XP to Netbook with Win 7

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 10:42 PM »

As far as I know, there is no upgrade path from XP to Windows 7.  You have to do a clean install.

http://windows.micro...o-windows-7#T1=tab01

As far as where to get it, I just purchased copies from Newegg a bit ago.

http://www.newegg.co...Item=N82E16832116986

5428

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 06:54 PM »

But seriously, after all I've told you about how I handle things, after all that y0himba told you about how he handles things, after valuing the ability of the parent to make a decision for good or bad and do what they are supposed to do...

-wraith808 (October 07, 2013, 03:06 PM)

Hay man, it's all good if it's working for you, but there are 2 sides to everything. I can think of half a dozen or more names of kids that I died while I was growing up as they finally got out of a repressive monitoring oriented culture that encouraged strict child control. Because when they (the children) finally realized that for the first time...there really was nobody "watching" ... They handled it badly.

So you have my sincerest wish that this does indeed work as well as you have it planned. But please understand that I have seen first hand just how badly it can go.

-Stoic Joker (October 07, 2013, 05:28 PM)

I guess my thing is what Ren said earlier- it varies based on the child and the situation.  And for as many instances as I've seen, and as many as you've seen, it's just a drop in the bucket.

5429

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 06:52 PM »

^I think you're taking what I said personally.

I have no problem with you or any of the others here. But thats a small percentage of the how many million parents out there?

But even with that, I think bugging a kid's or personal acquaintance's phone is a big mistake and sends the entirely wrong message.

-40hz (October 07, 2013, 03:45 PM)

No... that's why I started with a joke 

But it seems that with counter-examples it's rather strange that there is *no* give... sort of like the people on the other side of other arguments.

5430

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 03:06 PM »

What bloody?

But seriously, after all I've told you about how I handle things, after all that y0himba told you about how he handles things, after valuing the ability of the parent to make a decision for good or bad and do what they are supposed to do...

...you're willing to just discard it out of hand based on possibilities?

Hmmm 

5431

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 12:58 PM »

Electronic monitoring is a tool. As is the taking away of "any expectation of personal privacy." While it may make some people feel "safer" or "more responsible" in their duty to society and family, it is also instilling a potentially hazardous meme in the mind of someone who is too young to question it before it becomes a part of their accepted "reality.".

-40hz (October 07, 2013, 12:17 PM)

Not if done correctly.  I had very little privacy when I was a child from my parents, but I had it from everyone else.  In fact, was a private child and am a private person.  These things had no bearing on each other.

5432

Kyrathaba Software / Re: Kyrathasoft GoodReads Manager

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 11:53 AM »

He'd have to answer for sure, but I'd say probably not.  The only way it would work is if LibraryThing exported in the exact same structure as GoodReads, which is a large improbability.

5433

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 10:22 AM »

My children know they have absolutely no expectation of privacy when it comes to the Internet, their phones, the television Etc.  I monitor them, and then counsel them. After so long  being monitored, it has actually had the effect of creating trust and respect between my children and I, as well as teaching right from wrong.  When I was a child, we didn't have the devices and access we do now, yet I still was monitored and had no privacy.  As a child it got under my skin due to the fact our maturing brains work that way, but taught me the right lessons.  As an adult I see the benefits and reasons for monitoring.

I can honestly say, after watching what they do for so long, that I monitor them now more for keeping them away from links or people that specifically prey on children.  Whether it be for monetary reasons or for other, more sick reasons.

-y0himba (October 07, 2013, 08:36 AM)

You have said it a lot better than I apparently have.  This is exactly what I'm talking about.

While it may "take a village" to raise a child (and I have my doubts about that theory folk mantra as well) it certainly doesn't require software and an electronic device to do it.

-40hz (October 07, 2013, 09:25 AM)

I hate that saying.

-Renegade (October 07, 2013, 09:50 AM)

I hate the fact that it is a saying and a quip.. but I can agree with the sentiment.

5434

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 07, 2013, 08:20 AM »

I've started with perfectly innocent links, and within a half dozen clicks I've inadvertently ended up at some seriously sick, disturbed, demented perversions. (No - I don't mean pron.) There are gateways out there that young kids really shouldn't be getting into. Being able to control or limit that for kids is just being responsible. However... that can't go on forever. The reigns must be slowly loosened until you finally let go. Nobody has any business putting reigns on another adult.

-Renegade (October 07, 2013, 04:28 AM)

This.  As my children have become older, there's very little that we still do at 16.  A little more at 12, but not that much.

And I guess it's no big deal to someone that has been tracked by their parents since birth to continue to be tracked by police, as adults, when they go off to college.

-app103 (October 07, 2013, 08:17 AM)

And... you're ignoring that statement above.  That a parent that does use it has the responsibility to talk to their kids about it, and why, and when it's not acceptable.

5435

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 06, 2013, 04:11 PM »

And so, what this proves is that situations are different, as are parents.

And again, the most important part- I respect and listen to my children.  That seems to be a real fact that people ignore in this conversation.

-wraith808 (October 06, 2013, 10:54 AM)

5436

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 06, 2013, 02:22 PM »

So, how many of you here have had your privacy violated by a spying parent that thought they had the right to do that? How many of you had a parent that went rummaging through your "private thoughts" looking for something to hang you for? How many of you can really speak from the violated child's point of view? How many of you know first hand how damaging that is to a child, the relationship with that parent, what it does to any trust that child has in that parent, and how difficult it is to fix the damage once it is done? How many of you know first hand what happens after the child finds out?

Let's see a show of hands.

Am I the only one with my hand up?

-app103 (October 06, 2013, 12:58 PM)

Me.  And though I was mad at the time, in retrospect, it saved my life.

5437

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 06, 2013, 11:28 AM »

It might be worth noting that not all kids are made from cookie-cutters, and they're not all the same. Some kids probably need more attention/monitoring than others.

-Renegade (October 06, 2013, 11:10 AM)

That's a very good point- and a part of that equation of paying attention.

(Cynical rant about state-sponsored schools being cookie-cutters omitted.)

-Renegade (October 06, 2013, 11:10 AM)

Good... because then I'd have to join you.

5438

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 06, 2013, 10:54 AM »

I'll give a real-life example.  A friend of my son's has his own room in the basement.  The parents rarely go down there.  They don't keep track of what he does, after all, he's 16 right?  His girlfriend became more and more possessive.  Around them, she was great.  But more and more he started to get in over his head, and his parents knew nothing.

By the time they found out about it, she was coming over during the time when she was most likely to get pregnant to try to get pregnant.  After he decided to break up with her one time, she lured him down to the lake to try to have sex with him, and when he wouldn't broke his foot (and he lied to them about it).

Don't get me wrong- they have a pretty close knit family, and a very good family relationship.  But by the time this started happening, he didn't know how to tell them.  And the funny thing is that we had a good idea that things were off the rails.  Why?  Because, as some other parents put it, we're 'too involved in our children's lives', and my son had already told me about it, and that the situation was the reason that he didn't hang out with his friend at the time.

Like I said above, I don't spend the time to go through everything my children do like some.  But I am as involved as my responsibility for my children says that I should be.  Which it seems is a lot more than some think should be.  But it minimizes the chances that one day I'm going to have someone else tell me something that I should have known about my children.

And again, the most important part- I respect and listen to my children.  That seems to be a real fact that people ignore in this conversation.

5439

Living Room / Re: silly humor - post 'em here! [warning some NSFW and adult content]

« Last post by wraith808 on October 06, 2013, 10:25 AM »

Truth in Fairy Tales



And another silly one

5440

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 06, 2013, 10:14 AM »

It's all fine and dandy to talk about "good parenting" and "proper supervision" and have lofty ideals, but the reality is that no matter how hard you try, you'll never be able to live up to that 100% of the time. An app can help possibly catch a problematic situation when (not if) your attention lapses.

-Renegade (October 05, 2013, 10:21 PM)

This.  Experience will tell you... this.

Anything else and it is invasion of privacy. It does not matter that these are your own kids, they are still human beings and they should be able to have secrets.

-vlastimil (October 06, 2013, 03:15 AM)

Wrong answer.  At least to me.  Minimal stuff, yes.  But no, no secrets as long as they are in my care- mostly because until confronted with the situation, they don't know what to keep secret.  I know this from experience in my own childhood.  I kept things to myself because I thought they were my fault and my problem.  When my parents should have known.

Some measure of privacy, perhaps.  Minor stuff like I bought you a present, sure.  But you should be able to have a relationship with your child where secrets are unnecessary.  They are not a measure of being human.  Humans don't *have* to have secrets.  It's when you want to lie about something, or think that you're doing something wrong or that something is wrong that secrets come to the fore.  And in those cases are exactly when children need parents.

5441

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 05, 2013, 10:11 PM »

Is it a bad idea to monitor small children that are prone to getting lost?

-Renegade (October 05, 2013, 08:55 PM)

No, it's not a bad idea to monitor small children, in fact it's a really good one. But what's wrong with monitoring small children the old fashioned way? You know...actually watching them? Small children rarely get lost when they are properly supervised.

-app103 (October 05, 2013, 09:48 PM)

Perhaps because you're not always with them?

5442

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 05, 2013, 04:29 PM »

And just because there is one way to do such things (the trace the phone bit) does that mean that's the only way you'd want to do it?  Is no one else allowed to provide solutions that might be useful?

-wraith808 (October 05, 2013, 03:21 PM)

Not in my perfect world they ain't!

But since I'm not in charge here - and my perfect world is a very small and wholly imaginary place - that shouldn't bother anybody.
 

-40hz (October 05, 2013, 04:20 PM)

So... doesn't that mean that you're going down the slippery slope on the facing edge?  I mean... that you'd want to prevent people from making things based on what they could be used for...

...just saying...  (there's no devil emote for devil's advocate... hmm...)

5443

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 05, 2013, 03:21 PM »

And I do monitor all of that, knowing very well that these people closest to you are the most likely to do so.  It's sad but true.  And it's not too disturbing to contemplate, unfortunately, for me.

I don't know about the specifics of this particular software, and perhaps the intent is dodgy.  But you're grouping all monitoring in with this.  And there are very real threats out there, and very real uses for this type of software that is not nefarious.  Do we not use fire because of arsonists?  Do we not use knives because of the fact that they are used to kill?

And just because there is one way to do such things (the trace the phone bit) does that mean that's the only way you'd want to do it?  Is no one else allowed to provide solutions that might be useful?

5444

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 05, 2013, 01:03 PM »

This is a dangerous product in that it teaches people, at a very young age, that it is somehow perfectly acceptable for you (or others) to electronically monitor another human being purely for your own peace of mind.

-40hz (October 05, 2013, 11:25 AM)

How is it purely for your peace of mind?  It's been very much proven that the hours immediately after any abduction are the most important.  Being able to know where your child is at the moment that something is wrong and little timmy is somehow just gone can save a life and has been shown to, not just in anecdotal situations.  And if you do so, I think the parent also takes on the responsibility to explain it to the child, and the differences, and (more importantly) listen to the child and answer questions truthfully.

5445

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 05, 2013, 10:34 AM »

Ah yes, other peoples kids...Eek! As it's obvious that you really do care, I'm quite sure yours are just fine. I just think the usage of this technology sends a bad message to the masses. As I mentioned before, if a child doesn't step over the line because they don't want to that's a good thing. But if the don't step over the line because they are afraid to...the end result is destined to fail. I've seen it happen many times when kids get out of a repressive culture and then just go bat shit crazy when they finally realize nobody is watching ... Too many of my childhood friends died that way.

-Stoic Joker (October 05, 2013, 08:27 AM)

Just like anything else.  It's all related to the use and the foundation of respect.  I trust my kids.  But I verify... not because of a lack of trust, but because I don't necessarily trust everyone else in the world, nor their perceptions of the situation.

And here we get to the true crux of the matter. Because in reality...you still do not know. Because all you can truly confirm is that if there was an accident...the phone wasn't damaged.

Now, if the tracking was normally off...and a child had the option of turning it on (or it was/could be auto activated by an accelerometer) ... that would be an acceptable compromise. Because it gives them a send up a flair safety net, and a modicum of trust/control of the situation. While also giving you some level of true assurance that all is truly well (e.g. no news really is good news).

-Stoic Joker (October 05, 2013, 08:27 AM)

It gives an idea that they're in the area, so that even after he was late getting back, the panic button wasn't raised.  I talked with him about the fact that even though he didn't have reception, he could have (and should in other situation) look for another phone (which is what I had to do before the age of cell phones).  There was also the matter of being late.  But the tenor of not knowing at all was removed.

It's been well proven that the first few hours after anything happens with kids are the most important.  So in the case that something untoward happens, I want to not be waiting thinking everything is ok, but to give every advantage I can.

Even if it is "your kids" (insert strongly worded language what one might do to protect "your kids"), I still think that's beginning to slide down the wrong path. Particularly for Teenagers is where it all gets fuzzy.

I think that if there is a meta-theme where the parents have to have Always On monitoring, that resentment will simmer "nice and fine" until it blows up like a volcano. Then in the resulting emotional explosion is when it gets really dangerous because the kid will be in Rebellion Mode!

Plus these monitoring solutions are "lazy" - "I do nothing, I know every step you make". The whole country isn't one gang war zone. And as that resentment builds, the kid will actively try to break the app himself.

Rob Malda of Slashdot fame posted an anecdote once that his parents tried to reprimand something he did as a child, and took away his computer, so he logged into his friend's computer or something.

Then what happens when the kid turns 18? That's why college sees a lot of bumpy stuff, because suddenly after living in a virtual walled room, all that goes away and then the kid has had no practice taking his baby steps to live a real life.

-TaoPhoenix (October 05, 2013, 10:18 AM)

You're missing the whole thing about respect.  Just like anything else, it can be used in the wrong way.  And there are slopes all around us, so that's no excuse either.  We talk about things.  And I make sure that they understand the purpose behind things, and can have a safe environment to express themselves and what they feel.  And they have.  And when they do, I take that into account.  That's respect.  And that's the big difference between altruistic and non-altruistic monitoring- respect.

5446

Living Room / Re: Sci-fi novel now available from DC member kyrathaba!

« Last post by wraith808 on October 04, 2013, 05:21 PM »

nanowrimo is coming up...

5447

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 04, 2013, 05:20 PM »

Why? Because (from experience with that exact same thing) GPS will work where the phone won't.

I'll give you a real world example.  My son knows that when he's with anyone that's not us, he has to call when he gets where he's going, and when he's on his way home.  The first time he went farther away than the immediate area (we live in a rural area) he hadn't called after he should have been where he was going.  We tried to call, and it went straight to voice mail.  We checked the GPS, and saw that he was in the vicinity of where he was supposed to be.

Tell me which is more responsible.  To check the GPS and know he's safe in the area where he's supposed to be?  Or to just assume or just plain have no way to know whether he and his friend got into an accident on the way and were on the side of the road with no signal and no help in sight?

Yes, we got by without it before GPS and cell phones.  But now that we have them, why not use them for the safety of our children?

And I'm not talking about all children.  Do whatever you want to with your own.  I'm all over Carlin's skit on that regard.

But the children is a whole lot different from my children.  When you're talking about those children?  The ones that are entrusted to my care?  I'd let the world burn to keep them safe.

5448

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 04, 2013, 12:13 PM »

Well, I don't think 8-year olds know much about all that stuff, which is kind of why it's probably a good thing to shield them from some of the nastiness out there. Let them be kids. Dig for worms. Climb trees. etc.

But when it comes to the digital world, I don't see how it benefits a 9-year old to know about where in the real world we have people decapitating other people then replacing their head with goat heads in a pentagram for a black magic zombie animation ritual. That wasn't made up. That happens. And it doesn't need to be a part of growing up. That can be left for the adults or "new adults" to deal with.

Monitoring adults is one thing, but for parents to take care of their kids through some degree of monitoring is another thing entirely.

However, it's a matter of degrees. A 10-year old isn't a 16-year old, and you can't treat them the same.

-Renegade (October 04, 2013, 10:45 AM)

This.  Definitely this.  Recently I got a bit heated because my daughter was over a sleep-over, and the girls were going around the room saying who they had a crush on.  My daughter said no one.  One of the girls asked her if she was gay and the others laughed.

This is 10-12 year olds.

She dealt with it well, saying that she was more concerned with school and her friends than some boy that probably didn't know she existed, and definitely didn't care about her.  And this wasn't something that we put in her by rote.  It was her own thoughts.

And so, though I hated that she had to go through it (and that her friend that invited her didn't stand up with her), I was proud of the fact that she made her own decision and didn't go with the crowd.

5449

Living Room / Re: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this?

« Last post by wraith808 on October 04, 2013, 10:56 AM »

I have heard this one before. Isn't this basically the same justification that governments use for spying on their citizens?

-app103 (October 04, 2013, 09:42 AM)

No, not exactly.  My children are growing up and discovering themselves.  I want that to be their discovery.  I also want to trust that they will make the right decisions.  But, in truth, there's no way to know that they will.

The world is very unforgiving, and for all of our posturing about second chances, they're really few and far between.

So, I let them know that the phone, the computer, and even their rooms are not theirs.  They are given stewardship over them.  And because I have given them these things we both have responsibilities. Them, to do the right thing.  And me to make sure that they do.  It's my business to know what they are doing, where they are, who they are with... and its their responsibility to tell me and to do the right thing.  And we'll build on mutual respect from that foundation.  As they respect me, I'll respect them.

Do I read every e-mail, GPS them, listen in on their phone calls, check their bank accounts?  Not as a rule.  I have too much of my own to keep track of, and would rather get that information from them and trust them to do what we said.  And know that because we talk and because we hash out things and because I'm not arbitrarily authoritarian and we can rationally discuss any issues that they will be equipped to make any decisions that come their way.

But...

Trust, but Verify.

I rarely tell them what to do.  But when I do, they listen, because I don't use that power often or arbitrarily.  Growing is a process, and without guidance and direction and nurturing, who can be expected to do it alone?

So, the difference then.

With the government, you pay your taxes.  You pay for your stuff.  You pay for the services.  Then they spy on you arbitrarily and give you no respect.

That's the difference... mutual respect, and interest in well being rather than self-interest.

5450

Screenshot Captor / Re: SSC Automatically Opens Folder with screenshot

« Last post by wraith808 on October 04, 2013, 10:44 AM »

So, I'm using SSC 4.5.0

It seems that the setting that cmpm pointed out changed the behavior.  Even if I then check the other option that you originally pointed out, it still does not open, so that seems to do nothing.

Thanks for all of the help, everyone!