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526

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 12, 2020, 03:58 AM »

I can only get 14 day free trial. 
And it's a pretty steep price.
And the whole premise of this thread works with Obsidian and not Roam.
So I've still not tried it yet.

Equally I can understand where they are coming from. Online databases aren't cheap to run when they are as intensive as Roam, and their coding capacity seems overstretched given the descriptions of multiple bugs and variable performance. So they need to spend and will need proved income to avoid handing the business over to venture capital. And the 5 year subscription money will help tackle the financial needs during this pinch point.

And for the cultists using it intensively as a core part of their work,  even $15 is very cheap.
And if three people share with one database each, then that's only $5.

But all the accounts I've seen suggest it takes long time to learn how to use it to the max, and its hard to see how more casual users can get value from it at this price. afaics, there's the intention for a cheaper,  freemium offer to them, when they can work it out, but we'll see.

527

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 10, 2020, 03:11 PM »

Stroll is a notetaking tool built with the TiddlyWiki platform, imitating a number of features of Roam:

-panzer (June 10, 2020, 12:58 PM)

Thanks.
I think I looked briefly at its predecessor when the developer mentioned he had moved on to Stroll. I just got put off by the Tiddlywiki base since I just don't get wikis.

528

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 10, 2020, 03:08 PM »

There's a markdown that I use, and certain variations from it that I can't deal with.

-wraith808 (June 10, 2020, 09:53 AM)

And that makes complete sense to me. And the root of my frustration with markdown.
My advantage is in having nil investment in any particular variation. I can use Obsidian as the standard, it's just finding a convenient front end on Android. But,  really, it doesn't have to be totally compatible because I won't use much formatting in practice.

I believe there will be many more extensions as more people use it and want their needs met. Also believe there's probably more future proofing in rtf, or even docx, if markdown isn't very present proof in actual usage.

529

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 10, 2020, 09:41 AM »

There are just a few idiosyncracies I couldn't get past- the most critical being that it doesn't actually use Markdown, just a syntax which is similar to Markdown

-wraith808 (June 10, 2020, 09:24 AM)

I hate markdown.
Far too much incompatibility between apps; far too many variations.
It's a babel not a language.
And still many things it doesn't do.

Far too many bits of HTML added to supplement the last. But the choices are often idiosyncratic.

I  like your certainty that there is only one true markdown but I'm not a believer at all.

Like the early days of PCs when there were thousands of models all claiming to be IBM compatible and reviewers had to rate how compatible they were. And we'd probably still be there if Microsoft hadn't 'saved' the day by making MS DOS the standard.

Obsidian does use the wiki [[ but equally accepts the md [](). This feels like a developing standard.

530

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 10, 2020, 07:51 AM »

But I definitely have a front end problem as far as getting notes into Obsidian is concerned.

-Dormouse (June 09, 2020, 08:08 PM)

I'm still playing around with it. Cola Notes is the current focus. Still have to check the compatibility of its markdown. And work out the route into Obsidian. I can sync with a sync app. Or sync within the app - but is safe to allow a Chinese app access to any of my cloud drives? At least it has a widget and development momentum.

Hard to compare Roam with Obsidian when neither have an Android app yet. My money is on Obsidian having one first - like many fashionable cross-platform programs,  Roam seems tilted towards Apple. But Obsidian is developed by the Dynalist people; Quick Dynalist and Dynawrite exist because the native Dynalist app is none too fast for inputting new notes. So I do need to find a good front end system - I can't rely on Obsidian developing one.

531

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 09, 2020, 08:08 PM »

Now that Roam has opened its gates again I'll have a chance to play with it. I do still like Obsidian, but I've been increasingly wondering whether these two are complementary rather than competitors.
Hard for me to test out since neither have Android apps.
But I definitely have a front end problem as far as getting notes into Obsidian is concerned. And much of what I've seen works best with notes that are more reflective.
I don't know about Roam. I note that it's another one with a kanban option. I'd have to be very focused to test it thoroughly in less than 14 days.

532

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 06:24 PM »

Seems as if their HTML sanitizer stripped off the colour etc. I've worked out what syntax to use now for colour and font size, and seems to be compatible with Epsilon Notes instead of Markor.
So Epsilon Notes it is

533

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 03:23 PM »

I get duplicates at times named with the file name plus ([MACHINENAME's] CONFLICTED VERSION)

It's hard to get it to sync right from there- the conflicted versions seem to always come back.

-wraith808 (June 04, 2020, 02:43 PM)

Ah!
I just tested and that's what I've found.
So I'll take it out of Dropbox. And copy manually.
I assume it's no better with other cloud drives?

534

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 02:22 PM »

What are you using to sync?

-wraith808 (June 04, 2020, 02:05 PM)

Dropsync/autosync on Android  - still testing
Dropbox itself on Windows

That's a bonus.  Does it automatically sense when a file is saved outside of it?

-wraith808 (June 04, 2020, 02:05 PM)

Not sure - I just wondered what it would do. It updated pretty instantly when I saved though.

What I bear in mind is that current behaviour isn't necessarily locked in. It's surprisingly functional for such an early stage program,  but it is very early.

535

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 02:04 PM »

I've just noticed that one colour command that rendered as intended a few days ago now no longer does.
You don't get that with rtf.

I've found that you can edit a file that obsidian has open in another program and obsidian just updates when it is saved.

536

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 12:35 PM »

And I notice that my revised system ticks ALL my boxes, with links between notes being the only exception in a database. And even there they could be reconfigured quite easily.
Now database progs are just for active functions.

I am thinking about having one vault or many. One could easily become too big for Obsidian's search to be fast. And the links depend on Obsidian's search.

537

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 11:38 AM »

Was in its own folder,  now in sync folder.

But,  I'm still considering the implications of each approach.
The folders will be copied and backed up in either case.

538

General Software Discussion / Obsidian.md

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 08:42 AM »

I'm liking this more and more. Admittedly mostly from reading about it rather than using it. But Android is on its long-term plan,  as is WYSIWYG and sync. Storyboard/corkboard has been mentioned on Discord; looks as if it could be an easy plugin,  so I assume someone will do one sometime. Most of my use so far has just been experimenting. I will look at Roam,  but at this point I can see reasons for not using it (online database and speed), but nothing to make it better; that could change.

And I have Editpad and Search as alternatives if Obsidian drops the ball.

539

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 03:23 AM »

remember that things that can sync through dropbox, onenote, etc can be lifesavers.

-wraith808 (June 03, 2020, 05:49 PM)

I agree.
Most of my writing and note apps have autosync capabilities through Dropbox or alternative, but Markor hasn't which is why I need the autosync app. As you say, autosave in cloud can be a lifesaver.

540

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 04, 2020, 03:15 AM »

You can set it up to autostart or not and turn sync on and off.
It doesn't read the clipboard for copy or cut - you have to send selection to it, so you shouldn't find it accidentally capturing stuff.

I do think the clipboard is a potential security risk, but it is also a very convenient function.

I switched from gdata to Samsung keyboard which retains up to 20 clips.

541

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 03, 2020, 04:26 PM »

No.
Clipboard options on Android 10 have been reduced substantially so I've been testing options. Seems to work quite well.

542

General Software Discussion / Current programs for notes and writing

« Last post by Dormouse on June 03, 2020, 10:02 AM »

All OSs
Clipto, Evernote for clipping
Trello; boundary with Obsidian/Roam yet to be established

Android
Epsilon Notes
Markor
Pure Writer
Typing Hero
Reserves - Joplin, Jotterpad, Quicknotes, Simplenote

Haven't decided on sync program

Windows
AceText
Atlantis (when rtf is needed)
Editpad Pro
Obsidian
WriteMonkey
Reserves - Joplin, Scrivener, Simplenote, yWriter

Haven't decided about search. Have used DocFetcher, but considering a wider use. I won't rule out Copernic, but a Grep is more likely.

I'm annoyed with myself for never investigating Editpad before,  when I might have been able to get more use out of it. I'd simply dismissed it as a programmer's editor, but it's very good at text management which is much of what I do.

543

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 03, 2020, 09:39 AM »

So, less than a month ago I thought that I had my new system all sorted.
And suddenly it feels like all change without me ever using it.

The triggers were:
the new programs mentioned here
the pursuit of better editing
and consideration of some of Andy Matuschak's notes.

The revised system is less finished since many components and potential components are in active and rapid development.
The workflow, for now, takes me back to separate documents being key elements though link management is still in a database.
It fits, roughly, within a zettelkasten system. even if I'm not using it as such.

I described the workflow above as a watermill flow system, and it is very similar to the original concept. The different stages (managed by tags rather than folders) are all named after types of room or building rather than the usage. This is to take advantage of the richer associations of the words making it always clear where I am. The vestibule name is particularly important - a vestibule is a very small room and it emphasises the limited capacity. The idea of the reserve pool makes it very easy to chuck things out without working on them - they're not lost and still available. I decided to separate my own work from the library because I know exactly what permissions I have and reuse is easy.

Mostly I will be in markdown documents, but I will edit in rich text as previously.

Programs:

I can write in any text program. And probably will since I have a tendency to do each multipart piece in different software - I assume the different environment makes it easier to focus on that piece.

544

General Software Discussion / Notion, Obsidian, Roam - progress so far

« Last post by Dormouse on June 03, 2020, 09:36 AM »

Notion - describes itself as all-in-one, which I'm not looking for,  and the kanban doesn't seem as good as Trello. I will keep probing: I wonder whether its database can be used as a writer's grid, replacing my current spreadsheet use. Very much on back burner.

Obsidian - very early stages,  so no point in getting hung up on features. Mostly looks like something I'd use, and ticks the boxes identified at the start of the thread. Slightly bemused by search only being within a vaults. I'll use it for now.  When I can,  since it is Windows only. The concept works well for me.

Roam - I'll try it when I can. I've seen $15 a month bandied around as a minimum cost when it starts charging. There was mention of $500 up front for  5 years access ($8.33 a month) on twitter which had over 1k indicating acceptance despite a 5 year lock in. I assume that raising money for the next stage has to be the name of their game right now, given the length of their waiting list. fwiw, you can lock in $4 monthly for sync with Obsidian soon as an early bird.

I have some concerns about getting heavily into a program with a community dominated by zettelkasteners because their thinking generally seems so different to mine.

545

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 02, 2020, 05:09 PM »

Andy Matuschak seems to like fixed relationships between notes.
He treats tags as categories (though I've no idea if he uses them).
He uses fixed links between notes, and further advocates that the nature of each link be defined.
He also suggests that every note has a full descriptive title.

I like fuzzy tags, links that are often undefined, and titles that are only as detailed as you want to make them - and I'm not entirely convinced that titles are necessary at all.

I think that the more you tie down these details the more inflexible the pattern of thought is likely to be when revisited.

546

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on June 02, 2020, 04:29 PM »

How to use Roam Research: a tool for metacognition:
https://nesslabs.com/roam-research

-panzer (June 02, 2020, 11:57 AM)

The brain is basically a neural network—a mesh of neurons all interacting with each other.

I always find it very annoying when people use an inaccurate and incomplete description of the way the brain works to support an idea that is only loosely related to brain function.

I will try Roam out when I get access, but likening it to a mindmap with notes would tend to put me off. I appreciate that zettelkasteners believe in graphs of their notes, but there seems to be a failure to appreciate that the graphs mostly reflect the material coming in and the sequence of note making. They illuminate only up to a point.

547

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 31, 2020, 07:55 PM »

I've just realised that one big advantage of sticking to my current editing system is greater confidence that have the text clean at the end. I can simply save as text, and everything else is gone. Can't do that if it's a markdown file.

548

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 31, 2020, 07:16 PM »

Obsidian actually does do most of what I expected. All the markdown features seem to work.  I can get the preview pane to take most of the space; doesn't really help for editing because I can't use the mouse to change colours easily. That's not really a problem since I'll just stick to what I do now. Links work OK - though I saw mention somewhere of ability to link to a heading,  but I haven't worked out how to do that.
Be interesting when I can compare to Roam, which is further ahead in development. No obvious reason I wouldn't use it as primary note taker,  assuming it develops as you would expect.  Not an option for now without an Android version.
But easy to import my other notes.

Ultimately there's a question of search speed etc; impossible to guess where that will go.

549

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 31, 2020, 04:52 PM »

Thanks. It seems so important to get how something works.  I can see what it does and how it is also like a wiki. But that's not enough to work out if I'd use it.
I saw a set of very impressive Notion pages on Reddit - not that they did anything I wanted. I'll play more with Obsidian when I'm on a PC and try to find a way of setting Notion up.
The underlying question is whether I base everything on separate documents or use one of these to manage them. Trello is different: it can link to notes and documents, but doesn't make them. But the cards and boards are very quick and easy to set up and change. Notion seems able to do much more but doesn't seem as smooth.
I don't get Roam enough to know whether I'd use it, I can only read about other people's usage. Obsidian seems a good fit for what's in my mind,  but I need an android version to test it out properly.
I can test Notion,  and Trello I like.
I do like backwards links conceptually.

PS - I appear to have seen masses of references to transclusion since Nod raised it as an issue.

550

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on May 31, 2020, 03:15 PM »

I'll have to look more for guides and instructions.  I try the boards, but they feel clumsy and I can't get them to do what I want. Yet I found Trello intuitive.

I'll continue checking it out but hard to have a full go when I can't compare with Obsidian or Roam, and I'm unclear about whether I'm testing them out as note-makers and hubs, or hubs alone or for writing in.

For the moment,  I'll probably make notes using Markor or Epsilon Notes and work out where I go next later. #tag seems to be generally accepted now.  I prefer [[ for links.