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376
I think one thing that should also be cleared up is how marketing does not need to be marketing in the sense of how modern business should do it.

For example: When a developer, who has their own site, posts their applications here to "share" - that's marketing.

I don't know how obvious the above example is but the beauty of marketing is that it does not need to be linked to sales efforts or to the intent of marketing.

Marketing is like graphical user interface design with extra-consideration for the end user. It's a way of communicating and better emphasizing how the tools can help an audience with less effort on the person's side to understand the manuals, the functionality...even the intent to buy.

In this sense, it's very possible to be a marketer without realizing that you're being a marketer.

All these is mute though if the developers have to guess for themselves how to communicate. Example, if no one tells me that I need to add a screenshot or fix some other thing in my post I might not have realized the problem.

This is really where the inherent system/group is supposed to alleviate many of the problems with intent.

Not to beat kickstarter into a dead horse but look at the interface:

You can separate the comments/complaints from the backers from the updates. Video is not only at the fore front but it's designed in such a way that the paused video can double serve as a screenshot. Not only that, the sidebar social proofs itself with little help from the submitters.

This doesn't mean Kickstarter should be the standards for donationware. If anything the site overall is mediocre. There have been multiple problems with not only getting people to fund a project but getting the distribution right and it's still a site that gives biases to those who are somewhat below the radar as opposed to totally unknown submitters. You can't even just totally jump into the site and submit something. (without reducing your chances of being funded)

...however it's a step towards eliminating some of the exposure problems without requiring random exposure from popular blogs...and I think this type of delivery system is the fundamental requirement.

Clarity...interesting product... how many examples have we seen in our lifetime of totally boring examples that make no sense to us, gain massive interest? Why recently a scarf brought down Target's site.
377
Quick comment, more from the philosophical side... one of the reasons why todo-esque software struggles so much is because the software is trying to model a hugely complex "organism."  Lists, charts, pictures, spreadsheets, timelines, etc are all awesome ways to present different types of data.  Many programs strive to model these disparete methods of presenting data and some do well in areas.  BUT, despite the huge number of note-taking, todo, etc software already out there people are always looking for something better.

Two thoughts on why this is the case:
1. Incredibly complex system to model
2. (Perhaps even more important) Everyone has their own way of doing things

Add to those two major principles: file format (proprietary vs not), OS choice, etc and you have a dizzying problem.  Just like "productivity systems" Complete Information Management solutions need to match the person that uses them (very hard, especially with more than one user), contain large amounts of data, AND relate that data.  I think this is why you have people preaching everything from simple text files to large all encompassing programs (which may as well be their own OS).

I'm not saying "dont try," and I'm not saying "my way is best."  Just bringing something up that I've noticed over the years I've been searching for the same kind of tool... and failing... time and time again.  I cant even model my own preferred way of doing things, let alone find a program that will do it for me!  Some of them help in some small ways, but I have not found one program.

As someone who's trying to write up a "productivity system" (i.e. it's not a software program or a method designed for one software), I think you're going at it from the wrong philosophical perspective.

Not saying that I found the absolute correct reply but look at this topic for example.

The OP is not asking for some super program but is simply asking for a RTM/Onenote/Evernote hybrid that can also work with his gadget. He might even be satisfied with RTM + rich text editing w/ outline support.

From a programming perspective that's not a conundrum of wanting something better. It's a conundrum based on the problematic dilemma that many "apps" may just be "apps" rather than full blown software w/ an extended problem that many apps are buggy or have only one design. For example, RemembertheMilk/Toodledo are almost near copies from a casual user perspective. As an analogy, Chrome/Firefox maybe even more different in features and feel than those two.

Yet this huge number of todos that you mention barely even scratch the entire feature list of both of these services. Only RTM currently mimics RTM fully. Only Toodledo currently mimics Toodledo fully.

On a separate note, most people looking for a super program are not looking for a super program. If they were, they would be willing to defy all manner of convenience and make an entire scientific career out of experimenting and drilling down the best apps. They don't. Some would have a mega-test file but that's the rare power user. The primary reason is because 99% of the people out there may be saying they want a super "1" program but in reality they are looking to settle themselves on something closer to an ordinary reliable hybrid storage program or an ordinary hybrid Word processor + spreadsheet + presentation + outliner program or an ordinary application with a personalized search engine.

From this perspective, there's really not a huge list of software out there offering even ordinary capabilities. I can count how many decent clippers there are for example and most people would just use Evernote. Some would cite Surfulator. The rest? You get some names that get far eventually like Springpad and other popular services like Clipmarks slowly die out from buzz comments but there's not a "hundred and one" clones you can cite for basic clippers.

Add the fact that one the biggest myth is that "Just like "productivity systems" Complete Information Management solutions need to match the person that uses them" (well it's not verbatim the biggest myth because I'm quoting your words) then you're talking about a situation much more layered than what you are portraying even if you're just simplifying why the search for a more powerful program goes on and on.

Go back right now and look at all the software that are out there. How many productivity systems have married with the concept of software features in such a widespread manner that you can say it's mainstream as far as software choices are concerned? I can only mention one productivity system that got this far: GTD. Yes, there are those rare "Do It Tomorrow" programs or some pomodoro timers but 99% of the time, only GTD has such a wide spread demand among software.

...so think about it. If neither productivity systems are often linked with software, then how can you say there's a real similarity there? You can only rely on the perceived obviousness of people needing a tool that matches their needs. A statement that can literally apply to anything. It doesn't really hint to the issue being people wanting their complex human needs to be packaged all into one software. It simply means that people have different tastes, more so now that we've come to expect programs to sync to multiple devices and mini operating system-like software.

But taste is neither the ultimate goal of productivity systems nor of CIM software. At least that's not how the advertising convinces consumers to acquire and use such concepts describe it as, be it systems or software. Productivity is supposed to be the goal. Some would say P = time management, others would equate it for a demand for a notetaker that doesn't interrupt their flow, others have found and settled in on a CIM except they discovered a new gadget that doesn't support their favored CIM.

To bring this all around to bullet point answers though, here are the key things my post is trying to say:

*Todo-esque software does not struggle because of complex models.

*People are not always out there looking for something better (this doesn't mean they aren't thinking that way but they are not approaching and doing their search that way)

*Many programs don't strive to model these disparate methods of presenting data. If anything the predecessors of these programs are the ones that etched and embed this idea that these are how data should be presented as being productive for you, the end-user.

*Most everyone don't have an individual enough way of doing things. This doesn't mean we aren't individuals but when someone is looking to apply GTD for example. They can say they are trying to apply the system in their own way all they want but really we're all demanding a sort of herd behaviour that states that what we want is an app with this squiggly rules that make us feel like we're using an app that supports GTD or an app that supports to-do lists or an app that supports reminding us via our preferred reminders.

*Most preachers are not preaching inconsistently. Most people preach because they want to feel like they are using a luxury service that is actually utilized by many people especially utilized in such a way where people use it because you or people like you "reminded" them enough times. (This doesn't apply to help threads like this but things like voting for the best apps are often that way.)

*The reason you can't model your way of doing things may not be because your life is complex. The reason is that self-help have over-simplified and lowered our own expectations of what model means. Look at the average model, 99% of the time, that model existed because someone spent their lifetime creating that model. How many authors of productivity systems or software developers can say they spend their entire lifetime creating a model without bs? Especially software developers who 99% of the time create clones not entire systems. Especially authors who sell over-simplified sets of ideas they call systems in order to better sell to the ADD crowd.

P.S. I apologize for the tl;dr post. Honestly I shouldn't have replied as I don't have any success stories/credible references to back up my own reply but lately I've been scouring the archives of productivity reddit and saw this plus I'm recently catching up on the Penn and Teller Bullshit episodes and I just recently watched the season 1 episode about self-help and kfitting's post just scratched an itch.
378
Ahh I see. Actually Opera tends to white out the flash too and it still made sense to me from here but maybe it's because I wrote it so your post really confused me.

For those who can't quite understand the post, we're talking about Workflowy

Btw, these seems to be all of the popular Android productivity apps: http://mashable.com/...d-productivity-apps/

379
Last suggestion: http://www.todolist.co/compare.html

I can't really vouch for this app and all the android apps seem to have one or two star commentors highlighting their problems but outside of rich text editing, this seems to have all the features you want. At least that's the sales pitch.
380
Full blown RTM is definitely hard to replicate. Outside of the two other similar site in Toodledo and Todoist ... I really have no idea. Sorry.
381
sigh When it rains, it pours. Motivation RPG is more of a clunky to-do list that has exp.

Great thing about this though is that at least it's not some app idea and is totally browser based and available for everyone.
382
^ You might want to put a little blurb above whatever you have in the center of your two textblocks with the name of the site; Whatever you have between doesn't show up for me, so your post seems a bit lacking in details. :)

Sorry. Come again?

I tried WorkFlowy and it is indeed nice... But not what I am looking for.
It doesn't have proper tasks, reminders, etc.
It is more of a note taking tool (and imo OneNote & Evernote are better at that)

Yeah. It is kind of hard to find a combination of all three. Android + Rich Text editing is really a killer.

By proper task do you mean a check box?

Wunderlist has both the check box and reminders down but while having a space for notes, it isn't a full blown notepad nor does it have rich text formatting.
383
Since I'm not a coder, my real goal as a suggestor is simply to maximize the draw of the donation aspect via sharing an idea w/ the intent of increasing these three concepts:

-Visibility (What if I want to randomly donate to a random awesome application at this moment but would be bored later on?)

-Sentimentality (What if one day I won a huge chunk of money and want to help a developer maximize their application?)

-Packaging donationware to the image of a singular identity (What if I, a donator, am seeing several awesome app and can only donate to one of them? Which area can I best help in? Which area is the most urgent? Which area seems like it won't develop as many clones?)
385
I think software is already over-saturated which is why many people are trying to have an android or iphone/ipad version on offer. Often times the ones who ask about an older program are those who jumped into a newer, flashier and emptier but more portable operating system.
386
Which brings me back to an idea i had a couple of years ago, which would be to make simple but distinct paths for users..

  • So imagine a software page where it had a fixed price on it: $29.95 which you click to buy like normal software purchase.
  • But also a button saying: Show me alternatives to paying this.
  • If they click on that button they have choices like: I want to choose how much to donate; I cannot afford to pay anything now; I am not willing to pay anything but I would still like to use the software; etc.

That reminds me a lot of that payment form where you choose to take a deal instead of paying cash for the project (I can't remember what the name of it is now).  I wonder how different their conversion rates are because of that option... though this is a bit different, it still falls into that pattern of "I have to click something else to get the other options, so maybe I don't want to" trap.

I think that perhaps the humble indie bundle way might work better, i.e. show all of the options up front, but show the average donation, and one of the options is the average in addition to the set price.

Have to agree with wraith here although I think trekking down the road of people who do not care is a dangerous idea.

After all, even in real life business, the ones with money are often those who don't care either which is what leads to things like sales pitches and fundraising.

Really things like credibility profiles are pretty much a shortcut to that. If someone can know exactly that a place or person has not only the most people donating to it but also has one of the most credible active developers there is of a specific niche, then inherently it builds a herd behaviour to those with money to not only start donating but donating more for that cause.

I think Donationcoder is also a proof of that. At least judging by the recent fundraising. People both want to keep Donationcoder.com running and they also know that as a forum, it's the site not just the community that keeps it active. The result would be more donations heading to the site. On the other hand, people who have no guarantee how much their donations might impact a smaller NANY project or an older less used AHK program would more likely be less urged to donate to that specific developer unless the program gains a radical overhaul or it's via a bundle and a regular donator just happened to catch up on the thread that introduced all these.
387
As always great stuff 40hz, I just think the analogy fails in this case as there are no buyers.

Buyers would at least see the product. With software nowadays, buyers don't see anything until it hits them on the face because it managed to get by their popular rss feeds or even Facebook and Twitter streams and other types of notifications which skewer towards the tech using crowd like the slashdot crowd who rarely see much value in being social...err... socialists.

Donationware (if it were a government) I feel would be closer to communism. Someone wants an idea that they feel anyone can need. They have two options:

1) Seek the place that produces such items and implore them. (Thanking them later via donation)

or

2) Make the product by themselves and letting the people come.

Either situation doesn't lend much to post-product creation donation demand. (Unless the developers goes into lengths marketing and retesting their audience but again that leaves only the major players' names unless they offer something "shiny".)
388
Not a fan of lists and I've been slowing itching away from outliners over the past months but here's an online outliner that on the surface seems to be like a cross between TiddlyWiki and Noteliner:



It's gotten some hype too. The direct link shows some testimonials comparing it to the Dropbox of apps to a Techcrunch quote stating turn your entire life into a list.

389
This is written like a blog for eyeballs and the premise is simple (show your ideas to a big enough community) but I thought people reading this thread may also want to read about it:

http://www.twistimag...rt-your-own-economy/
390
Yes, it's a tricky issue. I would say because donationware is well... donations...then it's much more applicable to the concept as long as people understand that they are not bidding so much as voting via their money to not only decide which features they want but hopefully a Klout system allows a better understanding on what paying minorities' demands are as well as open up a setting where people can redistribute their donations to the right credible developer and this system is what jumpstarts a sort of breeding donation-based economics to flourish and encourage a two way route between donators and developers. Something that would be a sharp contrast from the PMS-like donation roulette of most linked or nag-based donationware.
391
Forgive my ignorance but don't package managers solve the middle man issue already?

Payments are troublesome but I think incentives are also often a problem. Most of the ideas thrown out are still nagware hoping to lump itself w/ a rare new -ware word, get blogged and get sudden <insert social media/insert blog> effect.

I haven't seen any site where a micro-donation form was linked to the changelogs where people can pay for features they want or hope that their money could sway a developer to tweak a feature they hate and the responsiveness of the developer be displayed in a Klout like display to increase the developer's credibility. Similarly haven't spotted a place where a commenting system differentiates between paying customers and non-paying customers making it clearer to the new visitor what the paying customer's culture is versus people just commenting.

Not that these are solutions, just that in terms of actual attempts, there haven't been many that are donationware-centric. Often times donationware takes some inspiration from freeware and sometimes shareware people go on their own way to tweak how to gain a profit.
392
General Software Discussion / Re: Does "OS Transition" software exist?
« Last post by Paul Keith on September 11, 2011, 10:24 AM »
There are image backup software like ShadowProtect. You need a much larger external storage though.

There are also some Linux operating systems like Mint that has a pre-installed Backup software like Mint Backup which basically just monitors and copies files you want. These can't tweak with installed software though.
393
Developer's Corner / Re: Forum Concept..
« Last post by Paul Keith on September 11, 2011, 10:16 AM »
My suggestion is always to start with fewer sections, and expand when there is too much overlap in topics.  the biggest problem i find with new forums is too many empty or near-empty sections, making it feel deserted and hard to keep track of posts.  a smaller number of sections makes for a feeling of a closer community.

This can't be overstated. Though I haven't managed a forum (a visited hosted forum at least), I experienced how expanding too soon kills off a budding community because near empty/slow sub-forums gives the impression to future visitors that they shouldn't bother registering. Hell, I've seen some forums with just the initial sub-forums and the forums are mostly dead even though you would think from the blogs, they were active. Independent games forum are notorious for this.

The necessity for categories may even go so far in the direction of the quality of sticky threads you are putting there rather than the organization of the categories. Maybe even getting a consistent back and forth conversation with one regular member just to keep the contents rolling although this is assuming you are starting literally from a 0 member forum.

P.S. I haven't read the book so maybe this is things you know about already. Forums are just such tricky things nowadays. I think it's easier to build a Facebook discussion page than forum nowadays even though I have a hard time regularly checking Facebook, much less scouring all the places where a discussion is going. Nowadays it's just a triple team battle from getting members of other forums to register, to them wanting to engage with blogs in the first place, to them feeling like they want to regularly check your forum over not only a more established one but ones where there's a huge crowd of Twitter/Facebook/Google Plus/LinkedIn users.
394
Ahh, as far as that one goes, I specifically kept it open ended because I simply don't know of any that currently exists.

The problem with charts, list sorting and smart filtering/smart folders is that it's mostly manual and it's often tailored for power users.

In contrast, look at a bookmark duplicate checker. It just "scans". HD space analyzer? "scans". Antivirus? "scans".

This is really a case where looking for the utility may be more complicated than simply looking for the prime execution of a software especially since I'm not so much searching for a program to get something out of it as much as I'm hoping someone who utilizes such a program could give me some idea on how efficient a method like this could improve an individual's personal productivity. Kind of like a modified perspective on things like weekly reviews and to-do lists scans to see if the effectiveness is more on scanning or on the actual tasks since things like skimming a list can have an unintended influence on simply being a reminder system or a self-restarting motivation tactic.

In terms of common occurences, an e-mail notification system would be much closer to the analogy than a planning tool. Planning tool requires groups to do such things as intelligent messages. E-mail notification systems are both dumb and they can be worked by a single person. The problem with e-mail notification systems is that they are more push than pull.

A scanner can give you instant feedback post-scan and it can also be initiated by scanning. An e-mail system is a slave to it's scheduled reminders and the closest thing you get to a list is deleting all those robotic e-mails.

As far as actual needs, I think it's just something that could easily head into a monstrous theoretical direction that it's much easier to just ask and receive an existing concept.

For example, it's easy to go wild with the multiple executions of graphs alone but anyone who uses habit trackers like 42goals and Rootein could easily point out that link and point out to a practical graph or counter tracker system that shows how many days have passed just from the direct user interface. There wouldn't be a need to define a need.

Of course the habit trackers aren't exactly productivity lists in that they don't contain details but at least the details are direct, the thing it's scanning and the output is clearer and the benefits a person receives there is much more straight forward than trying to narrow all the different things that can be scanned which is just too many to conceive. The "what thing is to be done or produced." requirement alone could literally encompass the entire list of productivity software that has been released for all eternity.

P.S. For those who have used licorize.com's weekly review feature, wunderlist's notifications and fortunenotes auto-point based update addendum system, yes I'm already familiar with them. Experience wise and ui wise, they just don't quite have the same clarity as a list scanner even though they implement some smart style of scanning or presenting on basic things such as tasks overdue or item crossing.
395
Nowadays, with the advent of many software, I don't really know anymore to be honest.

Just go to any blog and check out their productivity section.

By productivity list, I was just loosely referring to all the outlines, wikis, notepads, to-do lists, grocery lists, mindmaps, grids, clippers, etc.

The list was mostly there to omit things like RescueTime, Pomodoro lists, Timeboxing and as you highlighted, some corporate metrics like quantity produced per annum.

Personally though, it is getting hard. I merely want to focus on the personal productivity side of it but that word "personal productivity" reads too long and most reasons why corporate productivity is separate from personal productivity is not really because of the self factor but that there are often methods tailored for groups that an individual couldn't execute on their own.
396
The Getting Organized Experiment of 2009 / For those with mobile/laptops...
« Last post by Paul Keith on September 11, 2011, 08:11 AM »
Just want to inquire whether, outside of portable software that sync to the cloud, is there a notable killer productivity app for mobile that connects the gaps between PC and Paper?

I know it sounds silly but the more I try to create an applicable productivity system that anyone can use the more these basic necessities crop out and make it too difficult to expand.

Example: I omitted scanners because not only are they expensive to take into account for, but you could write an entire book on how to properly use it to make all your files sync correctly in a cloud based app like Evernote especially in terms of digitalizing books. Also omitted timers and calendars because you have to know the best cheapest brand of timers which is hard enough to narrow down much less keep. Ditto for calendars. Either you use it or you don't. Too much overthinking of the system, cripples the calendars.

Currently, the skeleton of the system is this:

-What if you have several pieces of paper on hand? A: M. Basic to-do list

-What if you have access to a notebook? A: GTD type capture everything

-What if you have access to several notebooks? A: Preferably get one with refillable sheets and the rest, use them for whatever you want.

-What if you have sticky notes and a throwaway set of playing cards? A: Use them to compensate for index cards

-What if you have index cards? A: Use index cards

-What if you have a PC? A: List several software recommendations.

-What if you have a PC w/ internet? A: Same as above

-What if the internet goes down? A: List some software that can mimic online.

-What if you screw up your backup? A: Copy several files to the cloud like say using Dropbox to sync.

Again, it all sounds so obvious but I'm just trying to make sure I have the sequence of basic materials right. Mobile sounds like a game changer though with things like QR codes on the horizon, I just don't have mobile and I'm not sure how much of a game changer it is especially the price. I have heard of things like people saving lives due to their mobile phones or how some people use audiobooks to make up for reading and then there's tape recorders but all these things seems like they aren't applicable to everyone especially those who are poor at multitasking.
397
The Getting Organized Experiment of 2009 / DIY Laundry Basket Dresser
« Last post by Paul Keith on September 11, 2011, 05:10 AM »
941624.png

Shopping List:
 
3/4″ Plywood cut into 15 1/2″ wide x 8 feet long strips (referred to as 1x16s)
1/4″ Plywood for the backs
1 1/2″ x 1 1/2″ metal angle (ask for it at Blue or Orange)
2″ wood screws or 1 1/4″ pocket hole screws
3/4″ wood screws (to screw the metal angle to the insides of the boxes)
1 1/4″ wood screws
wood glue
wood filler
finishing supplies
Tools:
measuring tape
square
pencil
safety glasses
hearing protection
drill
circular saw
sander
level
countersink drill bit

The rest are better off read from the site. There's both a PDF and Printable list for the page:

Source: http://ana-white.com...undry-basket-dresser (via Fee_Berry's home subjot)

398
Nothing urgent, I'm just curious to see if anyone has any experience with a Productivity List scanner and whether it has improved their productivity.

Just to clarify, not looking for smart folders, calendars or reminders or search based notes. I'm searching for a scanner that functions like a bookmark duplicate checker or antivirus software but for any productivity oriented need.
399
General Software Discussion / Re: True Clock Utility
« Last post by Paul Keith on September 11, 2011, 01:06 AM »
I'm getting a 404 error from that link.
400
Living Room / Re: 10 Steps To Make A Sale
« Last post by Paul Keith on September 08, 2011, 02:18 AM »
Not to derail the topic but a bonus tip would be to hire females and dye their hair blind.  :P

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