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301

Mini-Reviews by Members / Writer's Cafe Pinboard

« Last post by Dormouse on April 17, 2021, 06:24 PM »

Simple corkboard with notes (text + images) that can be formatted, coloured, resized and moved around freely (including on top of each other). afaics the content doesn't link to any writing content, just making it a freestanding pinboard for ideas, though copy and paste is easy enough to do.

Simple and easy to use. Useful for brainstorming and early development, but the lack of any structure makes it harder to use for organising etc. I'm not sure it would be worth using if you weren't already using Writer's Cafe - unless it's the only similar option you have.

302

Mini-Reviews by Members / Draw.io; Bubbl.us and many simpler mindmapping alternatives

« Last post by Dormouse on April 17, 2021, 06:22 PM »

After the suggestion from KodeZverg, I started looking at Draw.io, which was quite easy and intuitive. Diagram software rather than mindmap, so no outlining or import/export that isn't visual. When I first looked on my tablet, it didn't seem to work very well but it was fine on Windows (I'd note that this is true for the web version of Mindomo too); can be attached to Drive, Dropbox etc as well as local drive option so multi-device sync and availability is there. Shapes and arrows, colours, templates. Passes my quick and simple test and joins my list for trying on my project.

I started by looking at Bubbl.us - I was interested to see what it was like. But didn't grab me at all. Then tried many alternatives. All had faults that made them worse than using a pen and paper:

• insufficiently intuitive
• too inflexible
• visuals poor, making it hard to see what is going on
• too much effort required to make them function as desired.

I had expected that having the ability to create more impactful mindmaps would constitute a sufficient advantage for at least one of the programs to outdo pen and paper. It's not as if many of them are cheap; Bubbl.us has a free tier but its functionality is limited and only 3 elements allowed. And like many of them it then went to $5 a month. Might be okay if used regularly, but not cheap, and that is standard pricing for the multiplatform web apps. I'd probably be mostly Android, which would be cheaper, but I still didn't see anything giving the advantage I'd need over pen and paper. Far too much work required for them to be helpful with reorganisation.

So I decided to discount the category completely, though I'd be happy to look again if there's a strong recommendation for one program.

Of course, it could be a completely different story if we use a more powerful mind mapping program extensively as part of our writing workflow. If that were the case, then it ought to be easy to look at the the main mindmap to look for clues to what could be done to make things work better.

Maybe I ought to look at at some of the better programs to see see how well they would work. The downside is the cost: they are mostly subscription and not cheap; I doubt if free works well enough, from what I remember. Hmmm.
No, of course I should. I have always known that this type of visual approach would work best for me in many areas, but nothing ever has in practice. Pure mindmapping doesn't work with its central node - that makes it just a visual outliner, and text outliners don't work for me either: I need multiple links and multiple starting points. Diagramming works, but it's only a visual overview - the link with text, notes etc is still required in practice.
So back to my eternal quest to find a mindmapping/diagramming program that suits me. If it's good enough price won't matter. Cross platform is essential, web might do. Interoperability is essential, preferably linking with .txt and/or .md files. Easy is also needed - too complex and much of the effort expended is producing little gain in output.
(I note that this is an interesting comment on the Obsidian graphing, which I don't use much; what I'd really like is a graph view where I can draw the graph and the notes and links are then created. I will check to see what already exists in that way.)
Maybe a second best will do.

But using a new creative framework still doesn't address the need identified in this review.

303

Mini-Reviews by Members / Scapple

« Last post by Dormouse on April 17, 2021, 06:20 PM »

This is Scrivener's equivalent of pen and paper as a Mac/Windows program - Windows, as usual with L&L, being a paler reflection of the Mac version. (Rant - I do wish they wouldn't simply try to slavishly copy the Mac originals; that makes it much harder work for the Windows developers, especially when dealing with functions integrated into the Mac OS, and then doesn't allow them to take advantage of similar advantages within Windows. A simpler, cruder, equivalence target would probably be more effective.)

The big downside is that it doesn't have same advantage of easy availability. Computer only. For me, that doesn't cut it in an age when phones and tablets have apps that will do very similar things (eg iOS Notability, Android Squid - I regard these as digital pen and paper).

The advantage it has is easy extraction of text and easy import into Scrivener. Which makes it a reasonable choice for Scrivener users who sit at their computer all the time.

304

Mini-Reviews by Members / Pen and Paper or digital equivalent

« Last post by Dormouse on April 17, 2021, 06:18 PM »

The huge advantage the pen and paper (including digital equivalents) option is that it is the most accessible by far. This is backed up by its flexibility in being abe to be used in all ways for all stages. And has produced more great works than everything else combined. *And* is processed neurally differently to computer based systems or typewriters. **And** it is always easy to digitise with phone cameras.
There are many digital options; I liked Notability on iOS and Squid on Android.

I use it frequently. For anything.
The big weakness with me is that it doesn't integrate easily into detailed planning. Even if I were writing a piece longhand, it wouldn't - the detailed planning would be done in my head with just enough scrawled down to trigger my memory. And this means that reformulation is difficult without just starting again. Moving things around is hard on paper, and not that easy on digital equivalents.

• For me, the main value is in not losing ideas.
• And the initial brainstorming, rough thinking part of the process.
• But it can be used at any part of the process. In organising and reorganising, it's useful being able to think through connections; drawing dynamics into the picture rather than a static diagram. And being able to incorporate notes and details at the same time.
  

305

Mini-Reviews by Members / Really tiny reviews for creating, organising, analysing and reorganising writing

« Last post by Dormouse on April 17, 2021, 06:14 PM »

This mini-review was triggered by two circumstances:
1. I have a project. It isn't exactly stuck, but does feel as if it would benefit from rethinking the structure. Which led to me thinking about how best to do it, which brought me on to 2.
2. I was mulling on a spreadsheet with cards instead of cells, wondered about the Storylines feature in Writer's Cafe, checked Anthemion's website, found there was a new version of Jutoh which included a similar looking StoryBoard feature, as well as an update to Writer's Cafe. Definitely looks a bit like a spreadsheet with cards.

And on investigation:
3. Although StoryBoard and Storylines look identical, the instructions suggest quite a lot of difference under the hood, so comparison needed.
4. And there are other approaches I could take, and other programs. So possibly a wider set of comparisons, so I know where best to turn in future when I need to address something structural.
5. And AeonTimeline 3 is on the horizon. Nice to know where that fits.
6. And worth checking for anything new.
7. And if I'm going to do it, I might as well write it down for future reference, in which case I might as well put it up as a mini-review.

And doing this systematically means:
8. I can learn and try out some of the programs in order to design, structure and write the review.
9. And then test it on my project.

I needed to decide a program for writing and storing the necessary research. The obvious choice for me was Obsidian. So I set up a new folder and made it a new vault nested inside the Scriptorium. Produces a contained space for all the work and research. To record progress, I made use of the Daily Notes feature for the first time. Most of the full writing packages such as Scrivener would have worked too - but none had advantages over Obsidian.
2. Thence to working out what to do. Brainstorming phase. I tried outlining in Obsidian, but found it unconvincing - outlines are designed to be sequential and this wasn't. But the chosen approach needed to aid developing the sequence. I felt a free-form corkboard would work - eg Scrivener's Corkboard, Writer's Cafe's Pinboard, or panes in Notezilla. I decided to try the Pinboard, not having used it previously. It was easy and perfectly functional.
   1. This produced three sections:
      1. Programs or alternative approaches
      2. Important issues and features to consider
      3. The tasks themselves - or Stages of Creation, Organisation or Reorganisation.
3. When away from the computer I needed to do something different. I tried a digital pen and paper with screenshot. That also worked easily and well, but would have been more cumbersome to shift entries around.

My original idea was to categorise the essential tasks and then to prepare a detailed comparison table of the important differences between all the options that came to mind. But I hit a wall of reluctance once I realised that this would mean spending time describing and recording options that I had already dismissed in my own mind.
So, I will simply give my personal perspective of each option up to the point where I stopped looking at it.

306

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 17, 2021, 05:53 PM »

The plugin allows .txt to follow markdown styling. It allows links and transclusions, in .txt files. It doesn't allow .txt to be read natively or to be transcluded itself, and links to .txt files have to be typed out in full. Neither are tags in .txt recognised and nor do .txt files appear in graphs. Having hit these limits, I am now wondering how much use I will be able to make of it. For some things it will work fine, but not being able to be transcluded means that the technique of embedding chapters into a file to produce a complete MSS won't work. Of course, there's no difficulty in renaming them all at that point but working out which format to work in at each stage doesn't seem straightforward now; quite a collection of swings and roundabouts.

-Dormouse (March 23, 2021, 09:19 PM)

Now looking as if there will be no further development, either into other extensions (unless someone writes a plugin for them) or giving any further Obsidian functionality to .txt files. That means the plugin gives me very little that is useful, which is a bit sad after seeing the possible gains. 

And naturally limits what I might get from Obsidian. I don't use Obsidian Search because I usually want to look across all files with text not just the extensions that Obsidian reads. Tags (ditto). The key feature in Obsidian for me is the wiki-link linking, so that means making sure I have .md versions of everything I might want in the linking system. I can live with that.

I'm still playing with different approaches (and programs) for search and tagging.
Still love nested vaults.

307

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 15, 2021, 04:04 PM »

Unless I just didn't pay attention, I never received an e-mail, and I'm a subscriber.

-wraith808 (April 15, 2021, 02:56 PM)

That's very odd. I half wondered if they said $10 to those currently paying $5.
From the email

if you are ...

A current paying customer paying 5$/month or more, your subscription also applies to the new version without any changes.
A customer paying less than 5$/month, you will eventually be asked to upgrade, or close your account. I can't continue to provide my time (in terms of customer support & software development) at that low a rate.
An existing free user, and happy with the service, you will eventually be asked to pay to continue using it.
A desktop version customer that received a number of free months of the web version, you will have those applied to the new web version as well.

My impression is that v2 web is in active development and the desktop app, being developed only slowly, is a lower priority.

308

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 15, 2021, 03:47 PM »

my use of Timeline has been limited because of having to use the timeline to set it up and that being a little painfu

-wraith808 (April 15, 2021, 02:57 PM)

I'd agree with that. v3 looks easier (given I've not tested it at all). I still suspect that you'd only use it for something very detailed unless you like to spend most of your time creating detailed plans. But I've not seen its equal for detailed and complex timelines. For the 0.1% of fiction writers who need them and historians and historical writers.

309

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 15, 2021, 09:03 AM »

I'll put up what I have done so far later, and then add to it as I go down the list.

I've just had my invitation to Timeline 3. Impressed on a very brief inspection, and the spreadsheet pane is very helpful. I expect to add it as a core tool to my own workflow. But it is highly complex and unlikely to be worth using for anything simpler.

Also starting to use Mindomo, which is quite complex too, but with good import/export (including xlsx, csv, md, txt). So it seems as if Mindomo, Obsidian and Timeline could be a good combo.
But I'm only just learning how best to use Obsidian in development, and adding another two unfamiliar tools is no way to tackle a current problem so I'll let myself learn slowly and use something simpler for now.

310

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 14, 2021, 10:20 AM »

Though I see he's developing v2, and it's a bit pricier- at $10 a month after beta!

-wraith808 (April 14, 2021, 08:55 AM)

The email I received seemed to suggest that those paying 5 would just continue unchanged.
But I can see it being worth it for users who are productive with it. There's nothing else like it really.
I might have a look at the new version, but never progressed beyond quite liking the old one.

311

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 13, 2021, 06:43 PM »

Also noticed that Gingko is moving to $5 a month with a free trial rather than a document limit.

312

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 13, 2021, 05:52 PM »

I already stopped using TagSpaces. With largish collections of documents, it really lags.

-wraith808 (April 13, 2021, 05:01 PM)

It does. And the interface just isn't showing me enough. I don't remember it being like that on the desktop - different resolution, faster processor - but this ought not to be slow. So TagSpaces will go. That's OK, not invested much in it overall.

Still dk about Xyplorer. Tags etc aren't multi-platform etc, but it does at least have them. Test documents aren't really an issue because, as you say, they are typed in, but other types of files are. So I will look at how well it might do that.

But my big winner will be OneCommander (v3 beta). For the purpose of going through a very large collection of files, I find that the Miller Column approach suits me (and the mouse) perfectly. Has 7 colour tags - so something for very temporary visual use. But it's no use for tagging.

313

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 13, 2021, 03:03 PM »

The big issue I have now in the zettelkasten is the file management.

-Dormouse (April 13, 2021, 11:34 AM)

I have many file managers & TagSpaces. Plus Search utilities.
In the past, I've found that I tend to have a preferred file manager and setup for particular activities. But none of them jumped out at me once I was doing zettelkasten type notes in .md files. I probably don't want to change Directory Opus, which has been my general go to. I like Q-Dir for shuffling files between folders.
Will need to think about XYplorer more.
dk about TagSpaces. I suspect that I will stop using it. I like the idea, but I'm not sure it can be configured as part of a simple and efficient workflow - display is a bit noisy but also not as detailed as is needed for huge numbers of files.
I have OneCommander installed (v2 + v3 beta), and look at it from time to time. The attraction is Miller columns, and that does offer a genuine alternative in the way the file system is presented.
I like mouse rather than keyboard, which is different to many users, and many explorers which seem optimised for keyboard with less attention to mouse options.

314

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 13, 2021, 11:34 AM »

Thanks. I'm nibbling away at it, while still trying to get some stuff done.

The big issue I have now in the zettelkasten is the file management. I need to refine programs for doing that. Obsidian doesn't really: it does its bit with its own files, but not files in general. Was always going to be crucial with everything in files. I have ways of managing them,  but not a refined system.

Here's the summary of my zettelkasten, as previously described.

315

General Software Discussion / Main Programs in my Current System (for now anyway)

« Last post by Dormouse on April 12, 2021, 01:53 PM »

I thought it might be helpful to give an idea of the main PC programs that I'm using now. (I've ignored programs used for unrelated purposes.)
Some aren't in frequent use, but are an essential part of the system.
It's a very different system to the one I I had when I started this thread. Evernote and OneNote are out.
Some programs have databases, but everything is saved regularly into individual files. The main programs are cross-platform and I have them synced on all devices.
It's organised with inputs at the top, outputs on the right, and supporting programs below.



Mindomo is very new, and might not work out, but it fits a clear gap in my system previously tackled with a range of disconnected approaches - a successful bodge job but not the smoothest for workflow or efficiency.

I used it to do the diagram. All floating topics, which is why they don't line up properly. Multitudes of templates and themes, but none quite fitted. I did look at doing a simple change, but quickly learned how detailed and technical some of the configurations were. Will take me a long time to learn those and I'm determined to spend most of my time producing something rather than just learning, so it will be a long journey, even assuming I stay on the path.

Always possible I have forgotten a number of important parts of the system.

316

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 11, 2021, 02:57 PM »

Actually, pretty much sold on signing up. Unfortunately desktop + mobile requires a subscription, but it always takes me at least a year to try things out properly (Obsidian was an aberration), and the price seems pretty standard for the paid mindmap apps. Ticks all my required boxes. Some clashes in markdown syntax, but that's a straightforward conversion. Pessimism has turned to optimism.

I have asked myself what it doesn't do better than all the programs on the list for the short review I'm doing. The answers are:

• cost
• direct link to the editor used for writing
• enforced simplicity (ie risk of being pulled into unproductive ornamentation)

This feels like a remarkably short, though not insignificant, list.

In truth, Mindomo will be the best of these options for brainstorming, organising and reorganising lengthy writing if most development work is done in it from the beginning.

One issue for me that I've noticed is that the text editor for attached notes doesn't seem to have a dark mode option, which risks a glaring white panel. But that should be avoidable. Actually on the web version, it comes up in dark mode on Vivaldi anyway, so no problem at all.

317

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on April 11, 2021, 09:33 AM »

After the demise of my visits to Bubbl.us and friends, I wondered if it was time to restart my search for a mindmapping program that would work as a major part of my workflow. They have progressed a long way since I last looked.

I need:

• cross-platform
• Interoperability (preferably through .md or .txt files; Excel would be good)
• Ease of use (mindmaps quickly become bogged down in setting up details)
• Styling that works for me (I'm always so quick to dismiss mindmaps that I know how subjective this must be)

Having moved quickly through a herd of major contenders, I came to Mindomo which looks possible. Apparently integrates with the ProWritingAid Chrome  extension too.
I'm not hopeful after previous experience, but I'll give it a go.

318

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 08, 2021, 01:30 PM »

Yes. I added it because markdown might be important for some potential users. And I thought it was worth checking whether it would interfere with DocxManager.

319

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 08, 2021, 08:15 AM »

DocXManager

-wraith808 (April 05, 2021, 03:51 PM)

I've added it to the list. With Writage.
Not a cheap combo at $49 (standard) + $29 + Word, but might suit those familiar with or stuck with Word.

320

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 07, 2021, 08:20 AM »

That makes complete sense.
I've always done my best to avoid writing in Word, but sometimes it was just easier to do that than the whole export-import-format thing. And the primitive outlining etc was a thorn in the side then. Though the add-ins I looked at seemed more effort than they were worth.

FWIW I've been playing around with Jutoh's Storyboard. Succession of thoughts going 'Wow' and 'Wow' and 'Wow!'. Very complex and finicky to configure unless you just go with default settings,  but can be saved as a template once done. And now, having developed some understanding of what it can do, I have to think about what use can be made of it.
Supposed to be simpler than the Writer's Cafe Storylines, but also more flexible.

321

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 06, 2021, 03:13 AM »

Ha! Yes. Thanks.  It certainly wasn't something that sprang to my mind, and I don't remember ever hearing about it before. Though I might have forgotten.
And it's certainly from a different dimension.

322

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 05, 2021, 02:33 AM »

little comparison and review

-Dormouse (April 04, 2021, 03:47 AM)

Preparing list:

Jutoh Storyboard
Writer's Cafe StoryLines
Writer's Cafe Pinboard
Scrivener Corkboard
Scapple
Write It Now Story Board
Write It Now Storyline Editor
DocxManager+Writage+Word
AeonTimeline 3
Draw.io; Bubbl.us (examples of diagram/mindmap approach)
Plottr (recommended by some, seems too rigid at first glance)
Notezilla
Pen and paper or digital pen and paper
Outlining
Spreadsheet
Mindomo - part done

I'll add others as they occur to me if I think they'll add a new dimension rather than extra detail.

323

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 04, 2021, 03:47 AM »

I didn't probe the storyboard much, but diverted onto Writer's Cafe which has more of those features (eg pinboard)

-Dormouse (April 03, 2021, 04:43 AM)

The Writer's Cafe Storylines feature isn't exactly the same as the Jutoh storyboard. It looks the same but isn't set up the same. I think I will do a little comparison and review. And add in AeonTimeline 3 if that comes. With the Scrivener Corkboard and spreadsheets and anything else that comes to mind.

I keep sticking on one project. I'd like to give it up, but my brain refuses to leave it alone. 'Creative' features I think is a misnomer: they're as much about organisation and reorganisation as creation. And nothing flows when it needs to be redone. So it will be interesting to see if any of these help. I believe I already know that the Corkboard and spreadsheets approach won't work, but it's worth clarifying why. Not sure whether I should add outlining (specifically playing about with multiple outlines). The big difference between the Scrivener Corkboard and the Jutoh and Writer's Cafe features is that they have a tabular, columns and rows, construction which can be very helpful for organisation, where a freeform Corkboard is easier for creation. It might take me a while to work out how best to use it; there are chapters and scenes, and character arc examples with columns representing the book or time sequence, but I  assume others are possible.

324

General Software Discussion / Re: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 03, 2021, 04:43 AM »

I don't know what it is with the 3s. Just remembered that AeonTimeline 3 ought to be coming soon, though my promised invitation to the beta has still not arrived. I'm particularly looking forward to trying out the spreadsheet view in that.

I've now had a brief look at Jutoh. I noticed that some of the documentation advice references Amazon practices in 2013 and that the PDF of the guide splits some sentences across lines creating little groups of orphans. Doesn't inspire confidence in a program designed to make tidying and formatting easy. The program itself seems fine and functions clearly explained. 3 can be used with a 2 licence; the extra features can be turned for the session to allow users to try them out. Probably worth the upgrade for people who use it.

Not sure about the creative features added (storyboard etc) that originated in Writer's Cafe. Feels random and incomplete as it stands. Documentation implies that the whole writing process can be contained in Jutoh, but the editor feels insufficient to me. Possibly an indication of a direction of travel; possibly an acceptance that some people prefer to write with editors that have no creative or compiling/formatting features.

I didn't probe the storyboard much, but diverted onto Writer's Cafe which has more of those features (eg pinboard). I'm likely to have closer look at both, since I am one of those who prefer to write with editors that have no visual or creative features and they're something I miss often. I've tried many solutions but always drift away as I rediscover that the overall workflow is too rough.

325

General Software Discussion / Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta

« Last post by Dormouse on April 02, 2021, 08:40 AM »

I'd missed the fact that Jutohhas been upgraded from 2 to 3, with relatively frequent updates recently. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but noticed that it seems to incorporate the storyboard design from Writer's Cafe. In the back of my mind I'm harbouring the question of whether it could be used as a simple converter between a variety of formats that I use, which could save me a tad of aggravation if it does.

I had thought that Writer's Cafe had stopped development but there were updates in 2019. I'd also somehow grown the idea that Harriet Smart (the writer wife of the developer of Jutoh and Writer's Cafe) had stopped writing, but that's not true either. It does look as if Jutoh is being positioned as the primary program though, incorporating some features from WC.