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226

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on January 02, 2022, 05:46 PM »

Double Entry in outliners

-Dormouse (December 29, 2021, 03:48 PM)

This can be avoided with a robust, but convoluted, workflow.

• Write using the outline, rather than in the Notes. In Dynalist article view shows the typed text minus the bullets, if that matters. For some writing this is an advantage anyway because it means small sections can easily be rearranged.
• Copy the formatted text, and paste into a word processor.
• Remove the bullets and left align if necessary. This leaves each bullet text as a separate paragraph.
• Copy and paste the result into a markdown editor. Paragraphs retained in Typora, MarkText and Obsidian. Or can be pasted into an outliner note with paragraphs also retained.

This workflow has the advantage of being robust however often a file is converted from markdown to OPML and back. With the disadvantage that traditional markdown editors, including Obsidian and WriteMonkey, are less convenient for writing.

227

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on January 01, 2022, 06:03 PM »

bespoke formatting

-wraith808 (January 01, 2022, 12:37 PM)

Looks somewhat like org-mode but more longwinded

228

General Software Discussion / OPML - New Lines or New Paragraphs

« Last post by Dormouse on December 29, 2021, 03:48 PM »

I'm currently trying to refine my new core writing workflow, and looking fro glitches. I have discovered one described in this thread.. afaics the simplest solution is having paragraphs separated into, wait for it, paragraphs.
But that leaves in a markdown quandary.

I like my main workflow to be efficient. I am used to producing a new paragraph by typing Enter. I have been neutral about whether that paragraph is actually a paragraph (as in Word and other word processors, Scrivener etc) or a long single plaintext line as in most markdown editors; all I need is to be able to see my paragraphs as separate and distinct. My formatting programs have options to convert lines to paragraphs. These markdown editors includes WriteMonkey and Obsidian, and there's no option to change the behaviour (see this thread. Now I know that some apparently happily go Enter, Enter to achieve the blank line required to define a markdown paragraph, but I know I will never be one of them. My muscle memory is too strong. Even with a manual typewriter you could do CR LF with one hand then Tab with the other.

So the quandary.

• I could switch to doing the substantive writing in Typora or MarkText which will do the required formatting. (As an addon, I could type in Word etc and copy/paste in). Not ideal, but not so bad; I'm used to writing in many programs.
• I could give up putting the text into a file that swaps in and out of OPML. Certainly doable, but separates the synopsis and planning into a separate file from the text.
• I could investigate and tweak the conversion processes. Might be doable. But OPML syntax isn't massively well defined, I'd probably have to get to grips with the innards of pandoc, and there's a long history of OPML issues on the web many of which finger weird formatting on the part of Dynalist and Workflowy.
• I could find a different outliner that managed it all more successfully, but I don't know of another that has such a functional kanban as Workflowy.

My gut tells me to go with New Paragraph, because that's the dominant technology and expectation at most stages. Write in a program that does it with a single Enter. Double Entry in outliners or where otherwise necessary.

PS Had a further look at MarkText. Pretty well unusable for longer documents. No folding. No good navigation. Some aspects slow.

229

General Software Discussion / OPML single line problems with export

« Last post by Dormouse on December 29, 2021, 08:29 AM »

I have been developing a workflow that involves using OPML to move between markdown files and Dynalist/Workflowy, but I have hit a problem with exporting notes from both outliners. Paragraphs work perfectly, but single lines concatenate and sometimes produce a \ at the end. I have tried a number of converters including MarkText and Typora (which uses Pandoc), and the issues exist in each. The samples below are in Typora (Marktext has occasional issues where an extra line feed slips into the middle of a paragraph).

The simplest answer for me is to always use paragraph breaks. But I can't help wondering what is going on with line breaks and whether there is a simple, automated answer to the problem.

230

General Software Discussion / Re: Enter = New Paragraph or New Line? Preference?

« Last post by Dormouse on December 27, 2021, 11:15 AM »

I'm interested in views of a coding oriented but not necessarily Obsidian using group.

After seeing a variety of problems on the obsidian discord which could all be related to Obsidian's default of Enter=New Line, I put in a request for Enter=New Paragraph (Shift+Enter=New Line) to be new default; old behaviour as a toggle. Currently it's not even available on a toggle.

The vast majority of programs seem to use this including Roam, Athens, Logseq, Scrivener and word processors.

It's never bothered me much because:

• it only takes me a few moments to switch new lines to paragraphs and vice versa
• I do most of my writing outside Obsidian.

but I thought it was ergonomically a big issue from a muscle memory point of view, so I submitted the request as no-one lese appeared keen to.

But then I wondered what coders and other tech oriented users thought who hadn't maybe got used to the Obsidian way of doing things. I think I'm safe in assuming that most writers, academics and general public would prefer the more common Enter+New Para default.

231

General Software Discussion / Re: Enter = New Paragraph or New Line? Preference?

« Last post by Dormouse on December 27, 2021, 10:56 AM »

Enter = new paragraph. Ctrl+Enter = new line.

-wraith808 (December 27, 2021, 10:42 AM)

WriteMonkey 2.7 iirc 
No, tested again and it doesn't work.

232

General Software Discussion / Enter = New Paragraph or New Line? Preference?

« Last post by Dormouse on December 27, 2021, 06:15 AM »

Typora and MarkText have Enter=New Paragraph as default. (Shift+Enter=New Line in same Paragraph).
Ditto word processors.

Many markdown editors, including Obsidian use Enter=New Line.

Which do you prefer?

233

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 21, 2021, 07:01 PM »

Live Preview

-Dormouse (December 13, 2021, 05:19 PM)

Now public, with a variety of other improvements that have been introduced recently.

wrt to writing, I like the new File Info plugin (not yet approved, but installable via BRAT). Works for txt as well as md files.  - words, pages, word frequency etc. Stays as a right panel option rather than being a menu selection like the simpler Get Info plugin.
Adding it to moving sections via the outline, that's two good writer features Obsidian has added lately.

234

General Software Discussion / Re: Windows 10 Announced

« Last post by Dormouse on December 17, 2021, 04:53 PM »

What happened to Notepad?

-Deozaan (December 17, 2021, 04:30 PM)

I still have mine. Did yesterday anyway.
10 not 11 though.

235

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 13, 2021, 05:19 PM »

They're hoping to release it imminently it seems. idk.

-Dormouse (December 10, 2021, 06:17 AM)

Seem to have pulled back a little. Public release (presumably) still imminent,  but Live Preview and the new editor will no longer be the default.
That makes sense to me. Allows it to be tried without conveying the impression that people will be stuck with it. WYSIWYG fans will likely choose it, but there are still niggles and some performance issues and pure productivity may be best on legacy editor (restored default).

At least some of the issues arise from the CM5 to CM6 switch. And plugins and themes not being updated yet to new editor/API. Interesting to see that Obsidian has the Microsoft problem of legacy support after existing less than two years.

236

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 10, 2021, 06:17 AM »

Live Preview once it's public. That might be a little while since there's still a fair number of bugs being reported and a few major features still to be added.

-Dormouse (December 08, 2021, 04:11 PM)

They're hoping to release it imminently it seems. idk. Presumably for Christmas. Still too many issues for inexperienced users, I would have thought, but it works and many prefer it now they have adjusted.

237

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 08, 2021, 04:13 PM »

For the most part, Zettlr did everything I wanted, no complaints.

-superboyac (December 08, 2021, 02:13 PM)

Even the recent upgrade is still on CM5. Judging from Obsidian updating to CM6 will be a major effort once it's decided to do it. But will have to be done sometime.

238

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 08, 2021, 04:11 PM »

Obsidian is also becoming more common overall with users like us,

-superboyac (December 08, 2021, 02:13 PM)

Popularity soaring it seems. Nearly 50k on the Discord last time I looked and I'm not sure most users use it.
Be interesting to see whether you decide to use Live Preview once it's public. That might be a little while since there's still a fair number of bugs being reported and a few major features still to be added.

239

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 08, 2021, 03:05 AM »

map web pane

-superboyac (December 07, 2021, 11:51 PM)

Ah.
That thing I never use

240

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on December 07, 2021, 08:13 PM »

I can make changes in a text file in obsidian

-superboyac (December 07, 2021, 05:51 PM)

Did you ever say what made you switch from Zettlr to Obsidian?

241

General Software Discussion / How to zettel?

« Last post by Dormouse on December 05, 2021, 06:36 PM »

My understanding of the best way to do this has been evolving rapidly. Probably still at the unsettled stage with multiple competing evolved forms before one wins out. There are a few drivers, but the change has come principally because of the success of a few discoveries. Discoveries to me even if not to others.

The original idea, derived I believe from zettelkasten.de is of using single atomic notes as a similacrum of Luhmann's cards. Further propagated by Ahrens and his acolytes. With fancy unique numbers for notes. The unique numbers made linking easier. All the digital solutions, Zettlr etc (I think, I haven't checked) use markdown; I'm not entirely sure why they would do this since the logic of Luhmann's cards would be pure .txt files, and multiple tiny files is not a markdown concept. As BigChungus pointed out on the Obsidian Discord, Luhmann's actual numbering system fits perfectly with the way outliners work. And bullets are a pressure to keep the note short which aids atomicity.

Roam took the outliner idea, added links, backlinks and a graph and went overboard on the idea of a daily note. Like the main outliners, Roam is a cloud database.

Obsidian (I'm not considering programs I have no interest in) sidestepped into plain markdown files, a daily note template, links/backlinks/graphs. Local not cloud. Files, shareable with other programs, not database. But with much of the initial impetus from zettelkasteners and roam observers and escapees, the emphasis was on very atomic notes/files. A tendency exacerbated by block envy and not reversed by block emulation.

I followed this for a while, albeit with small extensions, but dissonance was always present.
A potentially immense number of files always presented management difficulties for other programs - and in Obsidian itself. Multiple folders and files made organisation hard. Advice would be given to mitigate this by using tags, links, search, MOCs. Or the graph, though I have the idea that it's used by a much smaller percentage of Obsidianites than it was in the early days. Daily Notes offered their own organisation. Plugins added further options. It worked, but never seemed intuitive. The text of an atomic thought took so little of a page, always tempting expansion.

My thinking started to move on. I was aware of markdown headers, and even used them a little, but only really thought about them by frustration with managing a MSS copmprised of many, separately written sections. When I realised the potential of long-form markdown files everything turned on its head. Instead of managing small files, it was a question of navigating a single long file. And this was essentially much simpler.
I then started to consider how to work with mindmaps and outliners (can't remember exactly why I started down that path - presumably triggered by using them to deal with a recalcitrant MSS). And then discovered OPML and the easy switching between mindmaps, outliners (inc Workflowy kanban) and a longform markdown file. It was a new world.

Then I moved back to research and notes and asked myself the same question: why tiny-form rather than long-form? As I thought about it, I realised that it would all be easier to manage in long-form. I had nothing tying me to tiny-form - I'd switched from YAML and YAML tags very early, I had everything inline. I was mostly writing, so didn't take it any further initially. But with Obsidian's recent ability to restructure by simply using the outline and folds, I have started to switch in. Anything I do is easy enough to change or reverse but it makes life easier and more intuitive for me. Within file search etc becomes more useful. I can easily switch vaults to outliners or mindmaps. And I don't actually lose anything.

242

General Software Discussion / Re: more musing on outliners

« Last post by Dormouse on December 05, 2021, 02:47 PM »

I'm still playing with Workflowy and Dynalist.

I've learned I can write in them. That's not a surprise. I can write in almost anything. Rewriting, reviewing, editing is much more demanding of big features, and the all-important tiny workflow enhancers that are rarely mentioned. I can even write in list mode despite all the attention-grabbing bullets and indents (in Dynalist I can simply switch to article mode). For some types of writing, liable to frequent restructure and resequence, they are actually helpful: columns, academic articles; not sure about journalism tabloid Daily Mail style is clearly created like this, but old-fashioned broadsheets never used to be - editors being much more demanding about flow. I've noticed word count tends to be quite high, but word quality only low-middling.

I've tried writing in the notes, which works well but has different disadvantages, and the notes do have their own value. otoh, adding text in the note works well with the kanban view, which is far to cluttered if text is added in bullets. But the bullets work much better when a ton of rearranging is needed. First draft can be done in bullets and then pasted into the notes where, in Workflowy it arrives as a single text block with no line breaks or paragraphs. Pasting Workflowy, or Dynalist, bullets into Dynalist notes produces nicely indented paragraphs.

OPML export/import works best when the text is in the notes. So, it's looking like initial working with bullets (at least for some documents), then pasting into the notes and using those thereafter. Not sure how to divide it up between Dynalist and Workflowy. Neither appear capable enough on their own. Equally unsure about when I will transfer between outliners and markdown editors.


The kanban view (Workflowy only) really suits my way of working. I will trying with full text again soon but have been slightly inhibited by the desktop freezing, and staying frozen despite closing and reopening, with it before.

One advantage of writing in the outliners is being able to work with multiple comment notes in Notezilla. Attaching them to a hoisted bullet means they only appear then. I've not found a way of doing that with a long markdown file - they all appear when the file is open, even when a header is hoisted. I don't know of a markdown editor that will hoist a header in a way that Notezilla recognises. No idea what decides that either.
I've considered a variety of approaches to comments but so far I've not been impressed by the ease or range of uses for markdown or html options. I need them to work across programs; it would be simpler if it were just one or two.

243

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 27, 2021, 06:27 AM »

I've done further testing with Dynalist and Workflowy.

I'm not sure whether it's perplexing or simply counter-intuitive that I have come to these programs after moving into Obsidian when I had so many years of not finding s real use for them at all. My current theory is that they didn't work for me at all when they stood alone, but that in the context of Obsidian (and markdown editors generally) they suddenly make sense and fill gaps.

What I'm exploring now is the Workflowy kanban. Experimenting with writing in bullets (suits some documents) against adding to notes. Dynalist has an article view and easy (plain text) export without bullets that preserves formatting typed in markdown. The kanban is very good for a synopsis view and I'm experimenting with emojis as a quick visual summary. Filtering is effective.

There's a kanban plugin for Obsidian but it doesn't work so well and the gain from having it integrated is marginal.

They are also much better outliners.
Outlining in a markdown document works, but it's much better for simple lists. Roam/vim style keyboard shortcuts are useless to me (afaics coders are devoted to them while most pure text writers use very few), it's good visual drag and drop that I need.
I've tried logseq (and a few others), but, despite the expressed devotion of its fervent followers, I personally find it a deadweight for productivity.
The limitations and borders around Dynalist and Workflowy are clear. It's a cloud database with all the associated baggage for privacy and access. That's okay. OPML works well and I keep my own daily backups. I don't put up anything confidential. The primary protection for my non-confidential writing anyway is vigilance and copyright anyway.
The most niggling aspect is needing them both. Workflowy has the kanban and colour, and Dynalist has the article view and better export.

244

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 23, 2021, 11:23 AM »

Do you know if Obsidian or any competitor by now has an easy way to treat indentation spaces as... indentation spaces. That is, to override the default Markdown rule that treats four space indentation as a code block.

-Nod5 (November 23, 2021, 06:01 AM)

I don't think so. Markdown is markdown, and no-one so far has dared to develop a writers' markdown that takes indent priority away from coders.

I know about the workaround to use   (stack overflow) but am looking for a built in solution.

-Nod5 (November 23, 2021, 06:01 AM)

The built in solutions are using CSS. This works well enough, so long as you are okay with it.

I'm quite lucky that it doesn't bother me, since I was always taught not to do tab indents as that was a decision for the printers/publishers/secretary.

So far no-one has written a plugin good enough to make Obsidian a really good editor for writers. A number of limited plugins have been written to tackle specific small needs, but imvho they don't help much. It's decent as it is, and the Limited Preview (aka WYSIWYG) mode makes it easier for a lot of people (still insider though), but it lacks many writer niceties found in writers' tools.secretary

245

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 22, 2021, 04:38 PM »

Latest insider version of Obsidian brings

Shiny new things

• You can now use drag and drop to re-arrange heading sections from the Outline pane.
• You can also drop an outline item into the editor to generate a heading link.

This is a massive feature for writing longform in a single markdown document 
Strangely absent from most markdown editors

246

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on November 07, 2021, 04:31 PM »

Notezilla 9 has introduced a couple of very useful features:

1. Option to use markdown editor

-Dormouse (October 22, 2021, 06:15 AM)

This has now become my Obsidian front-end, especially on mobile.
The markdown editor is comprehensive for simple notes and easy to use. Does tables and links, as well as the more obvious. No folding for headers, but that's hardly core markdown. Does have the ==highlighting== that Obsidian uses. And underline using HTML tags.

Some small frictions caused by Obsidian's design.
Attachment is to a vault rather than a particular document, and markdown export is to .txt files which requires a name change to .md for full use in Obsidian.
But still easier for straightforward writing on mobile than opening Obsidian.

It's possible to use the rich text editor on desktop instead, but there are messages to say that no features are gained by switching back to it, so it seems that this may be a process of transition. It allows the mobile notes to be formatted instead of plain text.

247

General Software Discussion / Notezilla 9

« Last post by Dormouse on October 22, 2021, 06:15 AM »

I've noticed that Notezilla 9 has introduced a couple of very useful features:

1. Option to use markdown editor rather than rtf. Has typical edit and preview modes.
2. Option to create note by importing the clipboard.

Plus
Dark mode
A range of grouping options
etc

248

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on October 15, 2021, 03:26 PM »

Via OPML, the formatting doesn't work properly but the headers are there

-Dormouse (October 15, 2021, 02:46 PM)

And using manual markdown when writing maintains all the formatting when the OPML is exported  Not interpreted correctly in Workflowy, everything but italic recognised in Dynalist.
It's what I should have expected really.
So that's the answer for me, for formatting anything I might want to export via OPML.

And, I suspect, that anything originally written in a markdown program will already have it.

249

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on October 15, 2021, 02:46 PM »

I'm sure there's a lot that can go wrong

-Dormouse (October 14, 2021, 05:20 PM)

Update 1 - Snag for some

It doesn't affect me, but formatted export from both Dynalist and Workflowy is a bit of a mess. I'm unaffected because I don't use formatting; I'm only interested in the colour export from Workflowy and I know how to fix that. And the bullet hierarchy translates perfectly to a header hierarchy through OPML.

But Workflowy formatted exports in notes don't maintain paragraphs (I've reported) even in Word.
Dynalist is supposed to be markdown based, but it seems to use a double underline for italic!?!

I've not tested systematically, since formatting is not something I expect to use. But anyone considering using exports from either should test their own use case before committing.

Small test
Exporting my full text Formatted Text via copy/paste from both Dynalist and Workflowy shows bullets and not headers. But does maintain italic and bold formatting in Typora.

Via OPML, the formatting doesn't work properly but the headers are there.

250

General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

« Last post by Dormouse on October 14, 2021, 05:20 PM »

But I'm thinking of switching to WM's project design. Will take me maybe five minutes to switch into that, and maybe half a minute to switch back again, so I'm hardly switching at all. Mostly a question of which view I use to write in.

-Dormouse (September 24, 2021, 06:52 AM)

It's not amazing that I have changed my mind again. When mind changing is so easy.
But the reason isn't so obvious - it's to make more use of web-based databased programs. And very surprisingly - since I have never used them previously, and never liked the way they worked - it's down to Dynalist and Workflowy. And Mindomo, which I was already using.

It starting when I delved into Aeon Timeline 3. Looked very good, but only synced with Ulysses (which I couldn't use) and Scrivener (which I could, but didn't want to) with import/export to CSV (workable, but much configuration required to use everything). It felt as if I was faced with trying to herd data scattered to the four winds of incompatibility. Matt (Timeline Dev) was open to the possibility of markdown import/export, and, in practice manual entry may be as efficient as anything else, but my mind was on the path to available options. Mindomo has many import/export options, so that wasn't a constraint, but I was looking for a common currency. Markdown is common (though most text apps are still into rich text), but lack of ideas on structure make it an unsuitable currency for databases; presumably why apps that use markdown internally still require arcane contortions for import/export. Plottr and Aeon Timeline both sync with Scrivener, but I can't like it as a permanent middle man/person/thing. Scrivener also does OPML; I haven't tested it, and some forum posts question how well it works, but it's an option nevertheless. Mindomo naturally does OPML, as do all(?) mindmappers; and outliners. Dynalist has the same developers as Obsidian and I know it uses markdown internally, so I thought I'd poke around.

I learned that either Workflowy has improved massively since I last looked, or I wasn't paying attention when I did. Or maybe my needs have simply changed, but Notes, hoisting, folding - and colour in Workflowy. Felt very easy and very nice. And remarkably similar to a markdown document. And Dynalist better in many ways. So OPML? Looks like a structured plaintext format; not obviously less human readable than markdown. So my million dollar question - how well can I get it into and out of markdown. How easily. And it turned out that it was both easy and well. Typora would do it. Logseq apparently does it. Even Dynalist. Not forgetting Mindomo. So I had to try the copy of my old whole MSS, prior to splitting - just an OPML export in Typora - and there it was in Dynalist and Workflowy. Complete in bullets and notes.

Going back the other way was straightforward from Dynalist, but not quite so from Workflowy - their colour syntax doesn't seem to work in markdown editors, so that would need a global search and replace. But doing that gives me all the colour in Obsidian. I am used to colour for editing, and this means I can stop most of my active use of word processors. So I can have my cake and eat it. D&W are very quick and easy on all devices. I have colour editing in W. I can use them for other things. They have none of the nice writer oriented features I like when writing, but I can write on anything and they are anyway fine for ad-hoc bits and very accessible. And I can still do my writing bulk in WriteMonkey. I see WriteMonkey 3 as having a very similar underlying approach (.json + attached .md files) to the outliners (database with .opml import/export.; nothing locked in a database but plaintext files supported by some database functionality - Obsidian itself is rather like that too.

So I'm going back to my whole document approach. I still see myself as based on files rather than databases, but now the files include OPML as well as markdown, txt, pdf etc

Of course, I haven't properly worked with it yet, only tried it out, and I'm sure there's a lot that can go wrong. But on we go.