Messages

26

Found Deals and Discounts / Re: Sagelight Image Editor - pay what you want promo (Apil 2010)

« on: September 30, 2010, 07:11 PM »

Rob, if I may veer towards what I think Sagelight needs from a practical - I mean UI - point of view. You may well have these covered already!
I think these (especially the user shortcuts) would need to be implemented before any major price hike

•User shortcuts
•This is more a 'would be nice' request:- the ability to show a folder of images (as thumbnails) within Sagelight, OR, the ability to open files via drag drop from file manager. One can then have Sagelight & File manager windows showing to keep track of files & different versions & open files easily. This is more for when Sagelight is NOT the default image editor. (BTW I notice that 'fit to screen' doesnt work when SL is not a full-screen window.)

FWIW I may just fit into the cheaper version target (not sure till I see versions) - but I dont use RAW. I'd still consider the above to be very important in terms of using the programme - as opposed to just trying it out on one image to see what it does.

Thank for the suggestions.  I agree with both ideas, but I do want to mention (especially since you don't use RAW) that there is a browser that comes up when you open a file that will show all of the thumbnails.  It's the standard Windows browswer, which I generally like, but I am not happy that Windows 7 (as far as I know) did not include independent global/thumbnail callback support (just when you click on the image).

But, having said that, I have already planned a browser that fits into the spectrum of how Sagelight wants to define itself.  As I split the software this become much more necessary, especially since I want to introduce a more rapid approach where you can make a certain level of changes (i.e. anything in the Quick Edit mode and the upcoming Kayak Mode which is quite extensive) as you scan through images.  Kind of like Lightroom (et. al), but as an side-functional 'stage' or sub-function, where you can then come out and do the more aggresive things like cloning, Dodge and Burn, Masking, Undo Brush, etc. that can't as easily be saved as profiles that you can click back-and-forth between.


In terms of price...

A lot of this is the topic of the next message, so I'll put a lot of the context in there, if that's ok.

But, I just want to say that price has been the number one issue for me.  I want to keep it low, but I just can't do it.  I've been told by everyone I've showed it to in the industry that the price is currently too low.  The real answer is to split the product, and that's what I am in the process of doing.

The issue, though, is the technology issue.  For example, this page (http://www.sagelighteditor.com/vibrance.html) discusses just one of the things that's coming with version 4.  Since it's an advance on the vibrance technology (i.e. in Lightroom), and Lightroom retails for $299, charging $39.95 for something that already has things Lightroom doesn't has been causing problems. 

I mentioned in another note that my thought was that I wanted to charge as little as possible, thinking that it would lead to more sales, and it turns out to be the opposite.  I've done a large amount amount of research on this in the last year, and it turns out that as you charge lower for a product that people look at it differently and look for different things (or not at all, depending).

I guess my thought is that Sagelight definitely needs some things -- even some basic things -- that aren't currently there, but there's also a lot of high-end things that are definitely competitive, as well as many things that are powerful and specific to Sagelight.   That's why I have the lifetime version going right now.  Some way to keep it low into the future for those who have it or buy it, at least before 4.0 is released in a few weeks.

As soon as 4.0 is released, though, I am focusing solely on those basic things (like addressing more user-based components like better saving options and more preference abilities, etc.).

Rob
 


 

27

Found Deals and Discounts / Re: Sagelight Image Editor - pay what you want promo (Apil 2010)

« on: September 25, 2010, 07:01 PM »

Rob, based on your word I'm about to plunk down the $40 for the lifetime license (despite having already paid a small amount for the pay-what-you-want).

-CWuestefeld (September 24, 2010, 01:54 PM)

Thanks a lot for the support. I appreciate it, and it definitely helps me focus on getting this next version out.

I'm excited about seeing your new version. Can't wait. I'd like to weigh in also with a suggestion, but since I really don't want to wait, it can certainly be deferred to a later version.

The tools you offer give much better control than other tools (Elements, PaintShop Pro) of color, exposure, contrast, and the like -- or at least, better control than I can get with the time I have available, and my expertise with those tools. However, I think that you're actually weaker with two operations: sharpening and noise suppression. So far I've been accomplishing these with plugins (sharpening with PhotoWiz's Focal Blade, and noise fixing with Noise Ninja). However, plugins don't go as smoothly with the Sagelight workflow, so it would be better (and cheaper!) to have these built in.

I'm glad you mentioned those two things, because I completely agree.  With version 4, I've added the basic equivalent of the "clarity" function (which is basically a limited/curve-based local contrast function), but also have added onto the Unsharp Mask by allowing C*I*E LAB Mode (as opposed to Hunter LAB) sharpening as well as edge sharpening with a viewable and controllable edge mask, so you can control how the edges are defined and sharpened.    I've also added very flexible High-Pass Filter layer functionality that has given me some great results, as well.

With noise reduction... I agree there, too.  I have what I call the Image Smoothing function which works pretty well with large areas of noise, banding, moire patterns and such; but, it isn't very subtle, either.   I put in parenthesis "(noise reduction)" only as a mention that it can be used as such, but I never considered that algorithm as noise reduction, though that's the noise reduction basis used in a lot of editors.  But, real noise reduction, imho, is not so easy! ha.

For version 4, I have in the works adaptive NL means reduction, which I think works really well.  The hard part is making it fast enough to be worthwhile and controllable, so that you don't have to wait too long between iterations.  But, I am pretty fully immersed in SSE2 code these days, though I wonder if I shouldn't start moving it all out to SSE4. 

Thanks for the suggestions.  It really makes me want to get a beta of 4.0 out as soon as I can, so I can integrate more and more what people are looking for.

 Rob

28

Found Deals and Discounts / Re: Sagelight Image Editor - pay what you want promo (Apil 2010)

« on: September 25, 2010, 06:48 PM »

In particular your observations about how raising the price has the effect of people taking it more seriously -- while low prices tend to make them ignore a product matches some of my unfortunate observations, and it is troubling but important information for authors to consider.

Yeh, weird, huh?  I wonder if there is a way to deal with that?  As a software author, I'd really much rather have my software in the hands of more people for less money, except that issue does get in the way.  What kind of experience/observations do you have there?

Rob

29

Found Deals and Discounts / Re: Sagelight Image Editor - pay what you want promo (Apil 2010)

« on: September 24, 2010, 12:34 PM »

Hi.

(reply to Dormouse)

I think that is entirely fair.... I thought I might make extensive use of it; given the indications of v4 being quite different to v3, I didn't want to get too hooked on the v3 system when v4 was imminent.

Thanks for letting me know that. ... Version 4 will mostly add onto version 3 rather than revamping how it works.  I have added a number of options onto existing functionality, but the major part of the functionality I've concentrated into a different more advanced mode, formerly known as the Pro Quick Edit Mode, as well as added on functions like a rendition of the CLAHE algorithm.  I wanted to make sure I upgraded the ability to work with RAW files and ended up with something quite extensive.  The basic Quick Edit interface is the same, except that you can enter values, use the mouse scroll, and save/load profiles, things like that in addition to some algorithm improvements.

Lifetime for now may be good. Offers are probably also good. You need high numbers of evangelistic users generating publicity for you all over the net. Your blog is very good. Wasn't so good that your recent public downtime immediately followed what appears to have been a very successful (in terms of publicity & numbers) offer

I think between your comments and a couple others, I really have an idea of what to do now with the lifetime licenses, so thanks for the input.  I have an idea I that I will put below.

In terms of my downtime.  I'm afraid that was more due to internal issues than it was anything else.  I continued to work on 4.0 at a slower pace, but that's all the time I really had.  Iy would have been done with the next version by now.  But, I've taken care of the issue, which unfortunately put a lot more work onto my plate.   So, that's why I am now back because I am looking at starting anew in many ways, but I didn't want the software to suffer, so that's where I put the emphasis, as I didn't want to finally come to a solution and have nothing that's been developed.  I'm speaking a little bit between the lines, since I'm not the only person involved.

For most end-user software, it really is a numbers game. Ten users at $10 are worth more than one user at $100, especially if they think that the proper price of the software is $50

My initial thought (which was wrong) was that... Ok, if I put out something that I could charge more for at, say, $5, this will be seen as a cool (and not greedy) marketing idea and I'd make more than I would anyway.  More people would get the software, it would be cheap, and I'd make as much or more... It's a win-win!  But, I found out very quickly that unless you have the know-how (or money... really it's about money) to market it that way, putting a $5 price tag ends up devaluing the software.   People tend to take it as a statement of worth by the producer/author.  For example, I had a free version (which I'd like to return to one day) and another version at $19.95.  One of my main laments about the software (and still is, to some degree) is that the technology that I think (and sometimes verfiably) works better than, say, Elements or even Lightroom did not get noticed by too many people.

When I raised the price to $39.95, basically doubling it, suddenly a lot of the new technology I put in there started getting noticed accordingly.  People who did reviews saw it, and I started receiving many more letters about it -- things like the Smart Light, and the raw speed, etc.   I think the higher price was my statement that it was worth looking at in a deeper way.  That's just what I got out of it, but the experience with raising the price seems to bear that out.

That's why I tried the Pay What You Want -- I wanted to try to find a way to get it out there cheaper without devaluing it.  I think it was a mixed success, but I am not sure I want to do it again.

So, that's been the hard part -- if I could give it away for the $10 without devaluing it, that would be great!

(reply to Curt):

for a small company like Sagelight, I will warn against lifetime licenses

Thanks for the advice!

(reply to Cyberdiva)

Yes, that seems fair.  So since I paid $20 for the Pay What You Want gizmo version, I could get a lifetime license for $19.95?  How would I go about doing that?  Wait for version 4?  Do something now?  I doubt that your ordering form has provision for this arrangement.

Yes, that's the idea.  I am expecting to raise the price with the new version, or realistically split the software, but I will keep the price differential at the current pricing.  And, I'd really like to support the people who already bought it, because I feel like they've supported Sagelight (and me) by doing so in its younger stages.   I will put the details below, because I want to consolidate the proposal I have below.  But, in terms of the Pay What You Want, just send me an e-mail and I will send back a link that will set up a way to do it.   You can wait for version 4.  I will be ending the lifetime version promotion when I release it, but I won't just cut people off, either.



(reply to cranioscopical)

I'm in the same position.
The idea of paying the balance between the two amounts seems fair to me.
Personally, however, I have no idea what I did pay. Rob, would you have any record of that?
I've not used the program more than two or three times, but I'm all for supporting someone with a fair-minded attitude.

I would just need either the e-mail address you gave paypal or the name you used, then I can look it up and send a link.  I appreciate the support, very much.  If you wouldn't mind, I'd be very interested in what I can do to make Sagelight more interesting for you (perhaps I'm covering some of it with this next version).  I'm at [email protected]


(reply to Darwin)

One *possible* (pie in the sky?) solution to a dwindling income when dealing with lifetime licenses would be to provide a "donate to author" link on the website. Keep it low key and see what happens

I thought about that.  I always felt odd about it since I charge for it, too.   I have been thinking about the idea of asking for donations so that I can re-introduce the free version.  This new version just has so much, I would feel comfortable taking the last version (with a couple minor subtractions) and making it free if I could get a certain threshold of donations.  That is, if I could get a donation fund to a certain level.  I'm probably going to split the software in a few months anyway, and it would my pleasure to make a new free version that has most of the features of the current version (plus whatever the engine and general UI inherits from the new version).

My proposal

I really appreciate all of the comments.  Since I'm a developer and not a salesman, I really got a great feeling about how people feel about lifetime licenses, and I do want to make sure that I let everyone know that I stand corrected about not being around for the last few months.  Even though I was going to some god-awful internal things, I really am touched by the support and should have realized it was there all along.

Here is what I'm thinking.  I am heading towards splitting the software and then raising the price of the new version.  The old version would remain at the same relative price, and the new version, I expect to be compared more directly to Lightroom.  The new version is called Kayak, and it has a number of features, including the standard Clarity, Vibrance, and host more, but also the ability to work in C*I*E lab mode as well as HSL mode, in addition to some particular advancements on the color theory regarding HSL that can really help images.  It features a multi-layer system, with a controllable mask on every layer, as well as a large amount of new developments that would take a while to list.

So, after getting your advice, I've decided to end the lifetime offer when I get 4.0 out the door.  Until then, anyone who buys it I will continue to give a lifetime license (for both versions), and anyone who upgrades from the Pay What You Want version by paying the difference, I will also upgrade to the lifetime license.  This is with current pricing, so whatever I raise it to, you will never have to pay more than it is right now (if you've already bought it at the retail price, then it's already been upgraded).

I hope this is a way to say thanks, and possibly get some development funds in at the same time.

Let me know how that sounds.  I am happy to post a link later with same samples of the version that's in development.

The pest control people are here, so I have to go.

Rob

30

Found Deals and Discounts / Re: Sagelight Image Editor - pay what you want promo (Apil 2010)

« on: September 24, 2010, 02:58 AM »

Hi, Everyone.

Thanks a lot for all of the feedback.  It's really nice to hear what you think.

But let me suggest that it's extremely important that your potential customers see this as an ongoing concern. If it looks like everything is "lights out", nobody's going to want to sink their money into that dead end

I totally agree.  I think, really, it was the internal things that were getting me down about keeping up on the discussion board.  It's a long story, but I am glad to be back, and will take your advice.

For what it's worth, I'm using Sagelight for most of my image editing needs lately, and I really am looking forward to your upcoming version. Once you're ready, I hope to see you back here with the announcement.

Thanks for letting me know that.  Like I said in my earlier post, I am very excited about getting this new release out and am working on it as hard as I can right now to get it out as soon as I can. I really meant to put out more updates, but I tore the engine apart to add some new core components to it, so it wasn't so easy to compartmentalize it into specific pieces.

(re:Darwin's Post)

A quick question about lifetime licenses - are all existing licenses "liftetime" or only those sold during a specific period?

Everything except for the Pay What You Want purchases are lifetime versions has been upgraded to lifetime versions.  I think that's only fair.  I never really liked sales like that, i.e. the banks giving out things just to new customers.  My cell phone company irriates me with that one!

(re:Curt's Post)

I don't know but expect gizmo's edition really was an "exclusive edition" - there is no longer a version called by this name.

Oh, maybe the term "exclusive" was misleading.  It was exclusive in the sense it was the only Pay What You Want version.  Gizmo has been very cool about things, and I think it was my idea to label it with their site as a way to thank them for hosting it.  I could have never done it if they hadn't offered to promote it.  I was talking to them about something else and just happened to mentioned I was thinking about a pay-what-you-want sale as a way to try different methods to keep the software as low-cost as possible, and they just offered to do promote it with no questions asked, so I wanted to do something in return.

The real difference comes with version 4.0, since the Gizmo versions don't get updated.

Anyway, the lifetime site doesn't offer Sagelight, but has a link to buy it via the developer's site, at only $40 - apparently for a lifetime license, but the word "lifetime" is not used.

On www.sagelighteditor.com (on the main page and the purchase page), it should say that there is a current promotion for a lifetime version.  I want to do it permanently, but I am not sure if I'll be able to do that.  I am at least doing it until version 4.0 is out.  I'm just really looking for ways to keep the software cheaper but not devalue it at the same time.  I'm not really a good salesman because I'd rather be developing.  Everyone tells me I should charge more, but I'd give it away for free if I could.  

(re: J-Mac's Post)

I just went ahead and purchased Sagelight based on Rob's post. See - taking the time for that got you at least one new purchase/user, Rob!

I really appreciate that, especially in light of your feelings on the UI. ... or do I mean (:? No, I mean .  

the UI really doesn’t impress me at all. Very non-intuitive compared to the various other editors I have used

I'd really like to get your thoughts on that.  9 out of 10 people that comment about it tell me that the UI is very intuitive, and I've received quite a few letters telling that's why they bought it, they thought the UI was much easy to deal with.  

But, on the other hand, on the 1 out of 10 comment, I get the exact opposite comment like yours.  I'd really like to know what you're thinking there.  Privately would be better, but, either way, I'd like to know what you want to see.   In some cases, I explain the method to the madness about why it's different -- for example, I get a few letters about why the default RAW conversion initially looks washed out compared to some other editors. When I explain that this has to do with the dual issue of not killing black and white points, but also avoiding range compression in the histogram -- i.e. the whole thing is about keeping a clean and useable histogram -- then it become clear why Sagelight does that on purpose.  But getting feedback (positive or negative, even when it hurts. ha) is a good thing, and I'll look forward to your comments.

Oh, and, yes it is a liftetime version.  You're right, I should indicate that in the follow-up e-mail.  I will fix that.  Anything bought right now is a lifetime version.

(re:TucknDar's Post)

is there any sort of upgrade discount available if I'm upgrading from the gizmo edition?

I've been a little conflicted about that.  I mean, I'm not trying to just get more money wherever I can.  But, some people paid $1 and others paid $25+ for it during the sale (though, I do have to say I thought, on average, people were very nice).  So, it doesn't seem right to just upgrade everyone automatically.    What I'm thinking is that since the Pay What You Want was a promotional thing, that if anyone who has that version just wants to pay the difference between the current price and their purchase price, then I would go ahead and upgrade it ito a lifetime license.   Does that seem fair?

(re: Curt's Post in reponse to the above)

for now, there is no version available to upgrade to

In one sense, that's kind of true, since I am not out with 4.0 yet.  But, the Gizmo versions did not come with updates past version 3.  So, you'd be upgrading to the lifetime version which would be an automatic upgrade into version 4 and beyond.   If I can keep the focus on development, I expect to have something out in just about 3 weeks.  With the engine put back together, I can then get to releasing updates on a more even schedule -- I have a lot I've developed, so my only issue is getting the development time to install it into Sagelight.



Thanks again for all the comments.  Let me know what else I can do or questions I can answer.

Rob

31

Found Deals and Discounts / Re: Sagelight Image Editor - pay what you want promo (Apil 2010)

« on: September 23, 2010, 01:18 PM »

Hi, Everyone.

I'd like to address the issue of where Sagelight is at and the discussion board being turned off temporarily.

But, let me start with where the heck I've been for the last few months.

Basically, I've been so swamped with with issues inside of the company (which was once as large as two whole people) that I have not been able to address things properly.  The discussion board, for example, can easily take up 3 hours of my time a day, and I've been having to split my time between these internal issues and continuing development.  I do answer personal e-mails, so if you've sent one I guess I didn't get it.  It should be sent to [email protected] -- ([email protected] was being used by the discussion board, and that URL no longer exists).

I am 90% complete with version 4, but have spent the last 5 weeks addressing things like revamping the website, the new posts, and many other details that, as the developer, I had hoped not to do.  I was hoping that the other arm of the company would have taken over these duties, but, for various reasons, this never happened.

So, I found myself in a position where I wanted to get version 4 done, address the discussion board, and also deal with promotion of the software, website creation and development, blog posts, etc.   But, I do have to concentrate on the public side of it, because sales (i.e. income) is the thing that enables the development, and the need to work on this side of the equation takes me away from development.  

I have developed so much technology for version 4.0 and I am very excited about getting it out.   I am hoping to get back to development soon.

Basically, Sagelight is currently being manned by 1 person where a minimum of 2 people is really necessary.

I had intended to return to the discussion board a while back with the introduction of version 4.  But, version 4 is turning out to be such an advancement with a lot of technology and code that I've developed, it's taking longer to get out than I wanted it to.   This is also because I had to deal with these other issues I mentioned and have not had the time I've wanted to finally cap it off.  I am just about to return to the development to get a release out in hopefully 2-3 weeks, sans some items that will just have to wait a little but longer; but, hopefully once the ball is rolling, I can come out with some updates as soon as possible after that.


This is why I recently went to lifetime licenses, at least for the time-being (at least until 4.0 is out), as I roll out this new version, because I want to make sure that no one has to worry about getting upgraded if they buy the current version.

The discussion board is down as I decide how to handle it, but should be back up in 2-3 days.  I am finishing up what I consider to be an advance on the "Vibrance" technology (to use a Ligthroom term, though I plan to call it something else) that I want to finish first, and hopefully this will just be a couple more days, and then I will be activate the discussion board once I've had a chance to address some of the messages.

So, the discussion board is just shut down until I can get this one algorithm finished and address the board.  I have not been on it lately because I was hoping to get someone else on it, but that didn't happen, and I have just not had the personal bandwidth to deal with it properly, at least until I get 4.0 out.

So 4.0 will be out as soon as I can get it there.  But, like I said, that's why I'm offering liftetime licenses right now, just to avoid any confusion about updating it later on.  

I hope that explains things.   But, I do want to let you know that my not being around as much as I'd like has been to focus on the development of 4.0 as much as I can, under the circumstances.  I can't really publicly discuss the details of 4.0, for obvious reasons.  But, if anyone wants to write me an e-mail, I'll be happy to provide a link to an overview with some samples.

Rob
[email protected]


P.S.  For the blog try just http://sagelighteditor.wordpress.com (there is also a link to it from www.sagelighteditor.com)