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Author Topic: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder  (Read 2870 times)

mouser

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Who can understand the crazyness of NFT idea?
https://www.theverge...chain-crypto-art-faq

Whoever can understand let's make an official one for DonationCoder just for fun.

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2021, 10:22 AM »
Do you have a piece of art or whatever you want to use for it?

If so, what title do you want to give it? And a description. And tags. And how many copies do you want?

mouser

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2021, 10:23 AM »
How about one of the cody pictures.

mouser

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2021, 10:24 AM »
Can we give the NFT ownership to Nudone? Maybe in the year 3000 it will pay for his old age home :)

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2021, 10:25 AM »
Can we give the NFT ownership to Nudone? Maybe in the year 3000 it will pay for his old age home :)

Ownership is determined by cryptocurrency address. So he'd either need to mint it himself or whoever mints it would need to transfer it to a crypto address he owns.

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2021, 10:41 AM »
FYI, minting an NFC on Ethereum is crazy expensive right now because the blocks are full so the gas (transaction) fees are really high as everyone competes to get their transaction included in a block. Also, if you're someone who is concerned about your carbon footprint, there has been some pushback on NFTs due to the incredible electricity costs required to mint them on Proof of Work blockchains. I read that the power consumption to mint a single NFT in 10 seconds could have powered the average home for about 4 days. And that a single artist's NFTs have had an equivalent of nearly 80 years of power consumption.

Whereas minting an NFC on a Proof of Stake blockchain such as Tezos is cheap and fast and uses very little electrical resources.

If you wanted to mint an NFC on Tezos, there's a site that makes it pretty easy (assuming you already have a wallet, etc.): https://www.hicetnunc.xyz/mint

And here's a fairly thorough guide which includes setting up a wallet: https://xtz.news/tez...zos-using-hicetnunc/
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 11:18 AM by Deozaan »

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2021, 04:00 PM »
Speaking of which, this article was published a couple hours ago:

Proof of Work vs. Proof of Stake: the Ecological Footprint

tomos

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Tom

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2021, 03:18 AM »
To clarify, it's not the act of minting an NFT itself that uses so much electricity. It's just the state of the blockchain itself and the mad gold rush driving up the prices, and therefore driving up the mining competition. So virtually anything you do if you're using those power-hungry blockchains like Bitcoin and Ethereum will have a similar cost and effect.

The good news for users of Ethereum is that they are taking steps to transition to proof of stake. But I've been hearing about that for about 4 years or so by now, so I have no idea how soon it will actually materialize.

And as far as I know there's nothing in the pipeline for Bitcoin to reduce its energy consumption.

wraith808

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2021, 07:28 AM »
The good news for users of Ethereum is that they are taking steps to transition to proof of stake.

For anyone that didn't know what Proof of Stake was, I did the research for you as I didn't know either.

Proof of Stake (PoS) (via Investopedia)

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2021, 01:06 PM »
The good news for users of Ethereum is that they are taking steps to transition to proof of stake.

For anyone that didn't know what Proof of Stake was, I did the research for you as I didn't know either.

Proof of Stake (PoS) (via Investopedia)

Thanks.

I also summarized it in my other recent thread on Cryptocurrency:

Have you heard of staking (proof of stake, or PoS)? It's like mining but without all the crazy electricity demands. It has an initial financial demand instead. It feels more similar to earning interest on money you already have.

In contrast to traditional proof of work (PoW) mining blockchains, which have everybody in a fierce competition frantically hashing as quickly as possible to be the first person to mine a block and propagate it to the network, PoS blockchains assign people their turns to mine in a raffle-like manner based on how much of the coin has been staked. Everyone knows their turn well in advance of when it actually needs to be done, so you keep your "mining" hardware connected to the chain (or at least connect it early enough that it can catch up to the current state of the chain), wait your turn, and then it mines a block when it's your turn. It's all very orderly and relatively cordial. It's more of a cooperation than a competition. There's no need to constantly be maxing out your CPU/GPU/ASIC 24/7 because you know in advance exactly when it will be your turn to produce a block. This means that the hardware requirements are (or can be) much lower in PoS blockchains than what is typically required for PoW blockchains. Some chains can even have low enough requirements that blocks can be produced with a Raspberry Pi.

4wd

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2021, 07:26 PM »
An opinion piece on the current NFT craze:

NFTs Are a Pyramid Scheme and People Are Already Losing Money

“NFTs are entirely for the benefit of the crypto grifters. The only purpose the artists serve is as aspiring suckers to pump the concept of crypto — and, of course, to buy cryptocurrency to pay for ‘minting’ NFTs.”

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2021, 02:58 PM »
I think that headline and the quote (which came from someone other than the author of the article) are too generalized and strong. There are too many blanket statements made as absolute fact when they actually apply only to a very specific niche.

I don't understand the current NFT craze. I think it is illogical and a "speculative mania" but NFTs are not inherently a pyramid scheme nor are they entirely for the benefit of grifters.

I see the current craze as more like a gold rush. And in a gold rush there are many people who choose to put everything (or at least too much) on the line in the hopes of striking it rich. Few people actually succeed, while the vast majority end up at a loss. Meanwhile, the shovel, pickaxe, and minecart vendors are happy to have the business.

If the quote was more specific, such as "the current craze over NFTs on Ethereum primarily benefits grifters" or if the article specified that "service X and/or Y selling NFTs is a pyramid scheme" then I'd find myself agreeing with the premise more.

But just because something is used by some people for nefarious or "dangerous" purposes, doesn't mean it is inherently nefarious or immoral.

Just because there was a tulip mania doesn't mean all sales of tulips are always without value and motivated by deceit or FOMO.

I'm not an art collector, and even if I became a multi-millionaire (or billionaire) I will likely never pay even hundreds of dollars for a single painting. But some art collectors are willing to spend millions on a piece of art. Why would someone pay millions of dollars for the original when you can buy a reproduction that looks virtually the same for a relative few dollars?

Similarly, why would anyone pay hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of cryptocurrency for what is, essentially, an internet meme, when anyone can just copy and share it?

Some people will find some kind of value in those kinds of ownership. I may not understand or agree with it, but that doesn't mean it isn't legitimate.


Are some people choosing to engage in something that appears to be or operate similar to a pyramid scheme? Yes. Are some people grifting others out of their money? Yes. Is this unique to NFTs? No. Is this the sole purpose of NFTs? No.

I'll point out that NFTs are not entirely new. It's just that there is a renewed (speculative) interest in them because cryptocurrencies are currently experiencing a boom in value. The last NFT craze I can think of was crypto-kitties, and it happened at the height of the last boom in late 2017. That's the craze that spawned many of the NFT sites/services that are being used for the current craze on Ethereum.

Between then and now, NFTs have been used more quietly and more "boringly" on more sane and rational projects, which nobody really bothered complaining about because it wasn't exciting enough to generate clicks.

To me, this article, and its line of thinking, come across as moral panic akin to "rock music is evil" by people who don't understand (or like?) new things. Especially because the people involved in that article seem to think that NFTs exist only on Ethereum where minting them is (currently) very expensive in terms of both electricity and cryptocurrency. But I just sit back in bemusement and think of the adage "a fool and his money are soon parted."

wraith808

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2021, 04:51 PM »
To me, this article, and its line of thinking, come across as moral panic akin to "rock music is evil" by people who don't understand (or like?) new things. Especially because the people involved in that article seem to think that NFTs exist only on Ethereum where minting them is (currently) very expensive in terms of both electricity and cryptocurrency. But I just sit back in bemusement and think of the adage "a fool and his money are soon parted."



To add to this, the fact that there are costs associated with 'minting' NFTs and that people are doing it for the most superfluous of reasons seems to be the primary reasons for naming it a pyramid scheme, which seems disingenuous at best, in all honesty. There are no get rich quick schemes, and NFTs are no exception to that rule.

tomos

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2021, 05:16 PM »
I'm not an art collector, and even if I became a multi-millionaire (or billionaire) I will likely never pay even hundreds of dollars for a single painting. But some art collectors are willing to spend millions on a piece of art. Why would someone pay millions of dollars for the original when you can buy a reproduction that looks virtually the same for a relative few dollars?
Not so important, but fwiw, there is a huge difference between e.g. a painting, and a reproduction photo/print of that painting. (I would agree all the same that it's crazy the money that is paid for some art.)
Tom

Deozaan

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2021, 07:36 PM »
Not so important, but fwiw, there is a huge difference between e.g. a painting, and a reproduction photo/print of that painting.

Well, sure. Maybe. I mean, if I actually owned an original, historical artifact (such as the Mona Lisa), I would treat it very differently than I would a reproduction. My point was that, some people can approach the idea of "obtaining art" from a point of view where the difference between an original and a reproduction isn't so significant, while obviously the difference is very significant to others.

In other words, I'm more of a "function over form" kind of person. And to me the function of art is to hang it on the wall (or whatever) and for it to look aesthetically pleasing (or whatever). In my mind, the reproduction photo/print can do that just as well as the original. In fact, to me, having a reproduction would be vastly superior to owning the original! I wouldn't have to worry about (1) the huge upfront cost of purchasing the original, (2) insurance payments to cover potential theft, damage, or loss, (3) security costs to protect it from said potential theft, damage, or loss, (4) ongoing maintenance costs to protect/restore it from natural degradation, or (5) more generally, the huge amount of stress about the responsibility of being the caretaker of such an important piece of humanity's history. What if it was irreparably damaged or destroyed while in my care? 😬

I can buy a $15 poster, hang it on the wall, and if in 10 years the image has faded due to UV exposure or if it falls off the wall and gets damaged during an earthquake, who cares? I can just buy another $15 replacement. But again, that's how I prioritize the purpose and value of art. And that's why I would likely never spend hundreds of dollars on a piece of art. But all that said, I think it is perfectly reasonable and sensible for other people to have different priorities and to place much more value on owning original artwork over reproductions for various reasons.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 07:42 PM by Deozaan »

wraith808

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2021, 09:09 AM »
Interesting article comparing NFTs to DRM - https://copyrightand...drm-by-another-name/

This part was especially interesting to someone like me who just knows the basics:

The winner of that auction at Christie’s last week, who goes by the pseudonym Metakovan, no more owns that pile of bits by the digital artist Beeple than I own the ebooks that I got from Amazon. I can read the ebooks on my laptop and my phone (and my Kindle reader, if I could find it in my closet), but I couldn’t read them on my Nook or Kobo (if I had either). I can’t resell, give away, or rent them; even if I were to hack the DRM, I’d be violating Amazon’s terms of service.

Metakovan can view the Beeple artwork on any device that will display JPEGs. But in a sense, he can’t alienate the work either, because it’s already available to everyone in exactly the same format as it is to him. He can’t lend or rent the NFT, because the NFT platform doesn’t support those operations (though it could). He can resell the NFT, but then he doesn’t get to keep all the revenue from the resale–commissions go back to both the artist and the NFT platform and/or auction house. (Resale royalties to artists for physical art objects are mandated by law in many countries, but not in the U.S.) It’s not clear whether he can give the NFT away (i.e., resell it for $0) or leave it to his children to inherit.

In neither the NFT nor DRM cases do buyers get the same bundle of rights that are guaranteed for a physical object in copyright law. In both cases a single private entity controls and benefits from the process in perpetuity, whereas no private entity is involved–or is even allowed by law to be involved–after someone purchases a physical copyrighted work.

In a twitter thread, an interesting comparison is also posed about this particular form of ownership by Matt Levine of Bloomberg:

https://twitter.com/...784691029180425?s=20

NFTs are a new form of tradable ostentation rather than a new form of tradable ownership.

Renegade

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 11:20 PM »
@mouser, if you're interested, I can help you out with some direction there.

I work in this space full time - have for a few years.

I can pretty quickly bring you up to speed on the basic theory, the first NFT, what's happening now, and the future of NFTs.

Right now the NFT-crazy crowd is freaking out over the absolute most basic form, but (in my day job) we've already got NFTs that are paradigmatically orders of magnitude ahead of all that.

I'll drop you a quick DM.

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Shades

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Re: Whoever understands NFTs let's make one for DonationCoder
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2021, 12:10 AM »
More clarification about NFT's.

Taken from Slashdot:

When you buy an NFT for potentially as much as an actual house, in most cases you're not purchasing an artwork or even an image file. Instead, you are buying a little bit of code that references a piece of media located somewhere else on the internet. This is where the problems begin. Ed Clements is a community manager for OpenSea who fields these kinds of problems daily. In an interview, he explained that digital artworks themselves are not immutably registered "on the blockchain" when a purchase is made. When you buy an artwork, rather, you're "minting" a new cryptographic signature that, when decoded, points to an image hosted elsewhere. This could be a regular website, or it might be the InterPlanetary File System, a large peer-to-peer file storage system.

Clements distinguished between the NFT artwork (the image) and the NFT, which is the little cryptographic signature that actually gets logged. "I use the analogy of OpenSea and similar platforms acting like windows into a gallery where your NFT is hanging," he said. "The platform can close the window whenever they want, but the NFT still exists and it is up to each platform to decide whether or not they want to close their window." [...] "Closing the window" on an NFT isn't difficult. NFTs are rendered visually only on the front-end of a given marketplace, where you see all the images on offer. All the front-end code does is sift through the alphanumeric soup on the blockchain to produce a URL that links to where the image is hosted, or less commonly metadata which describes the image. According to Clement: "the code that finds the information on the blockchain and displays the images and information is simply told, 'don't display this one.'"

An important point to reiterate is that while NFT artworks can be taken down, the NFTs themselves live inside Ethereum. This means that the NFT marketplaces can only interact with and interpret that data, but cannot edit or remove it. As long as the linked image hasn't been removed from its source, an NFT bought on OpenSea could still be viewed on Rarible, SuperRare, or whatever -- they are all just interfaces to the ledger. The kind of suppression detailed by Clements is likely the explanation for many cases of "missing" NFTs, such as one case documented on Reddit when user "elm099" complained that an NFT called "Big Boy Pants" had disappeared from his wallet. In this case, the user could see the NFT transaction logged on the blockchain, but couldn't find the image itself. In the case that an NFT artwork was actually removed at the source, rather than suppressed by a marketplace, then it would not display no matter which website you used. If you saved the image to your phone before it was removed, you could gaze at it while absorbing the aura of a cryptographic signature displayed on a second screen, but that could lessen the already-tenuous connection between NFT and artwork.
If you're unable to find a record of the token itself on the Ethereum blockchain, it "has to do with even more arcane Ethereum minutiae," writes Ben Munster via Motherboard. He explains: "NFTs are generally represented by a form of token called the ERC-721. It's just as simple to locate this token's whereabouts as ether (Ethereum's in-house currency) and other tokens such as ERC-20s. The NFT marketplace SuperRare, for instance, sends tokens directly to buyers' wallets, where their movements can be tracked rather easily. The token can then generally be found under the ERC-721 tab. OpenSea, however, has been experimenting with a new new token variant: the ERC-1155, a 'multitoken' that designates collections of NFTs.

This token standard, novel as it is, isn't yet compatible with Etherscan. That means ERC-1155s saved on Ethereum don't show up, even if we know they are on the blockchain because the payments record is there, and the 'smart contracts' which process the sale are designed to fail instantly if the exchange can't be made. [...]"

In closing, Munster writes: "This is all illustrative of a common problem with Ethereum and cryptocurrencies generally, which despite being immutable and unhackable and abstractly perfect can only be taken advantage of via unreliable third-party applications."