Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten (Read 516581 times)

Dormouse · « **Reply #1125 on:** May 08, 2022, 11:21 AM »

I now read on an ereader (Onyx air note 2),
-urlwolf (May 04, 2022, 09:07 AM)

In case you haven't seen it, this thread on the Obsidian forum is still going. Quite a lot of Boox users there.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1126 on:** May 09, 2022, 09:15 PM »

I revisited the current state of the Obsidian plugins &etc that relate to writing while I was 'watching' the Kentucky Derby on internet TV. I made a few notes; then thought it was worth posting them here.

File Management
Bartender allows manual sorting of files in the file explorer. Not yet approved as community plugin (installable via BRAT), but does work and makes it easier to work using shorter notes - makes it more like Scrivener, Ulysses and most other programs. imho, it is more useful than the longform plugin at present (Longform last revised 4 months ago). otoh, when I turned the plugin off, all the files in the vault disappeared from the Obsidian file explorer (still visible on system) and they only reappeared when I restarted it; hasn't worked a few times and I've had to resort to stopping and restarting Obsidian.

File splitting and merging - I don't believe Obsidian has a good solution for merging files, and the splitting plugin (Note Refactor) works, but hasn't been updated for some time and the developer hasn't been active on Github since the middle of last year. There are easy solution for the files outside Obsidian, but I feel that this remains an area of weakness for Obsidian as a writing app, although embeds are a way of constructing long files from shorter ones, and is the method iA Writer uses (although that has an easier way of adding them).

Editable Embeds
The Hover Editor allows linked files and embeds to be edited directly without having to open the original file. This makes it possible to put together a long document from many files using embeds or links, whilst still being able to edit the sections from within the large file.

Word Counts
My preferred option for current file remains the File Info plugin; last updated about 3 months ago, but does everything I need. Better Word Count now works in Live Preview.

Another very useful plugin is Novel Word Count(only just updated). It adds the total word (or page etc) count to every file and folder in the Obsidian File Explorer. Very useful, but the value does come only when writing is done using multiple small files rather than big files with headings.

I don't believe there is a way of working with heading level word counts.

Blocks
There are two main block dragging plugins. The first covers every type of text, but only works in legacy editor, not Live Preview. The second is more recent, works in Live Preview, but thus far only works with lists. There's also a block copy/embed plugin.

Focus Mode
One plugin (Ghost) progressively fades lines the further away from the active line they are but doesn't work in Live Preview (I found this plugin quite useful sometimes, but only when the lines are short). The other hides the side panels and menus (more friction than it's worth for me).

Folding
Natively, Obsidian has the ability to fold headings and lists. The Creases plugin adds a much finer level of control, plus the ability to add creases (folds) wherever you want. I appreciate the potential value of this in very big documents, but haven't needed it myself as yet.

Outliner functionality
Best approached using two plugins (Outliner and Zoom) which are designed to work together. They're functional enough for simple outlining but Zoom now only works in Live Preview.

Colour highlights
The Highlightr works quite well, but has two disadvantages - it's not low friction and the HTML makes the edit pane a pain to read

Appearance
I mostly use the default theme for the simplicity, but the Minimal Theme has grown very impressively with a good set of settings to personalise the appearance without needing to do anything with CSS. Some themes are actively updated but many aren't.

Long-form writing using single file
Sadly (for me), I see very little that helps with this apaart from the folding options. The core Outline plugin, allows headings, with text below, to be moved around. The block embed/link plugin works for the headings and text too.
My impression is that long-form writing purely in Obsidian, would probably work most effectively using sections rather than a whole book or separate scenes/chapters.

One advantage of Obsidian over most writing programs
Is the ability to show a number of files at the same time, particularly if some are placed, hidden or half-hidden in the side panels. That's an extremely flexible arrangement which can be very useful. Most writing apps allow a side note to be triggered, or a program such as Notezilla can be used for multiple notes, but that's not quite the same thing. Obsidian also has the Callouts core plugin which makes it fairly simple to add standardised alerts/comments of different types.

Paragraphs, Lines and Enter
This remains an issue. If someone writes paragraphs only (ie no single new lines within the paragraph), then there may be no effective difference between a line and a paragraph - everything will depend on the settings of the export/conversion process. Depending partly on the use of copy/paste and the settings used within that.

urlwolf · « **Reply #1127 on:** May 10, 2022, 01:30 PM »

I'm very happy with logseq so far. Plus neovide, a nvim frontend, that does something really interesting with the cursor (check this: https://youtu.be/Vd5AACp6GG0?t=112) because it has better typing latency. I don't like modal interfaces though. And the many trips to 'esc' are ditracting.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1128 on:** May 10, 2022, 05:01 PM »

I'm very happy with logseq so far.
-urlwolf (May 10, 2022, 01:30 PM)

That's great. Given the people who like it, I'm sure it's good and is, as you said, developing rapidly. Had more developers than Obsidian even before raising the $4m. The basic structure is very Roam-like. I've simply never go on with it well enough so far, but it's the one Obsidian alternative I check out regularly. Actually, I do keep an eye on Zettlr; I'm not in its core user group (which I see as post-grads and academics) but seems to me to be the most writer biased of the PKM apps.

Plus neovide, a nvim frontend, that does something really interesting with the cursor (check this: https://youtu.be/Vd5AACp6GG0?t=112) because it has better typing latency.
-urlwolf (May 10, 2022, 01:30 PM)

I do see what you mean. Looks very neat. Of course, I don't actually use emacs, vim, neovim or alternatives and use the mouse by preference when I can. And have never typed fast enough to have an issue with latency; even if I did hit an issue, I'd probably be sitting back thinking while it untangled itself. I'm a fast typist so I assume that I simply spend too much time thinking and not typing.

superboyac · « **Reply #1129 on:** May 10, 2022, 05:47 PM »

Very interesting observations and links everyone!!

update on my end. All this zettel and markdown efforts has led me ultimately to a place where I use it specifically to make static generated sites out of it with just my curated set of notes and ideas. It's the best way to make a good looking website, so easy. And you just open up obsidian, make changes, and website is instantly updated.

urlwolf · « **Reply #1130 on:** May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM »

Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?

superboyac · « **Reply #1131 on:** May 11, 2022, 01:04 PM »

Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)

40 was questioning this a few pages back, loll. RE the productivity.
Being beneficial? You can look at it in different ways. I have been notetaking rather heavily since the late 90s. I can tell you a lot of it is just dealing with my own anxiety/stresses and it is therapeutic in that sense. I argue with myself in my writings until I come to a conclusion. Reading it later is not the greatest thing, it is mostly rambling.

But then I have curated notes, more along the lines of Luhman and zettel. And those definitely are productive, as they lead to tangible results. Like writing a finished book. Or using the ideas to put together some other deliverable....a project, a script, etc. I write all the steps out.

I don't think overall all the notetaking is very productive. There is an element of OCD going on here. A lot of paralysis by analysis. So I am aware of that, and am always trying to be more reasonable with my approach so I'm not just doing OCD things.

Overall, I find great value to the practice of notetaking. But only if it leads to a finished result, or towards a stated goal that can be accomplished in the short term. Other than that, I feel like I'm in OCD territory.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1132 on:** May 12, 2022, 07:25 AM »

what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)

In the main, I don't believe that the people doing this are productive, apart from the mass production of notes.
Most appear to be students; probably the most driven and usually highly performing students anyway. Many appear to have the belief that it will help them learn (though that's not what Luhmann was about); and treat Ahrens' Smart Notes book as their bible even though it conflates his own ideas (developed largely around student note-taking) with those of Luhmann.

Luhmann lived an exraordinarily focused and regular life and was extremely disciplined. His system was perfected to optimise his productivity, and building on the usual reading and writing work typical of academics. He turned it into a form of painting-by-numbers (so rapid writing at the end). It was a form of academic mass production where the usual academic clay was sorted and then formed into bricks, with an index so that he could quickly find the bricks he wanted whatever he decided he wanted to build in the future.
It's a system I can see working very productively for any academic with his level of discipline (and ability to spot the best clay and craft good bricks).
But not so much for students, and not at all for anyone who doesn't actually have an intention to produce anything at the end of it.

Personally, I've never had that regularity, nor that style of discipline. Neverhteless, I can craft the bricks and the system makes it easy to drop and pick up as desired, with no loss of previously done work. So that's great.

How much effort is it to keep notes?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)

I don't know. People do appear to be producing prodigious quantities of them.
For me, I don't make a fraction of the notes that most seem to make (though I do have a very good memory, and my own workflow has always been heavily based on that). I have only ever made notes as an essential component of doing something, and even then usually only a fraction of what most seem to believe is required. Even when I was a student, I might make 4 lines of notes, and noticed others with 4 pages or even more; I never could understand what they thought they were going to do with them.

Who is measuring this?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)

I'd like to believe that everyone doing it will be measuring it for themselves. No way of avoiding bias.
Trying to do matched samples for group work would be fraught with problems, and I don''t think it could be made to work. A longidudinal single-case approach to carefully selected groups might work, but would be expensive to conduct.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1133 on:** May 12, 2022, 06:09 PM »

Paragraphs, Lines and Enter
This remains an issue. If someone writes paragraphs only (ie no single new lines within the paragraph), then there may be no effective difference between a line and a paragraph - everything will depend on the settings of the export/conversion process. Depending partly on the use of copy/paste and the settings used within that.
-Dormouse (May 09, 2022, 09:15 PM)

Given the lack of a reasonable combine and export option in Obsidian, I decided to do a little testing. Two md files, one with an empty line between the lines (ie markdown definition of a paragraph) and one without (ie lines only), exported into docx

Inspire Writer - exported the no empty line file "correctly" (from my usage point of view) into paragraphs, and the one with markdown paragraphs into paragraphs with an empty space between the paragraphs.
iA Writer - exported the empty line into paragraphs, and the no empty line file was concatenated into a single paragraph.
Typora was the same as iA Writer. As was Writage.

In other words, Inspire Writer interprets markdown lines as if they were paragraphs - which is the way many people intend. But iA Writer and Typora stick rigidly to the markdown standard paragraphs. I was a little surprised by Typora because when I enter directly into it, the Enter = New Paragraph, but quite reasonably it regards that just as a keyboard adjustment for WYSIWYG.

Which means, for me, that I'd have to add an extra process (double spacing lines in text editor) if I wanted genuine paragraphs without adjusting keyboard behaviour to double Enter every time I pressed Enter should I type in Obsidian or iA Writer and export through iA Writer, Writage or Typora. Writing in Typora always exports as I want, as does writing in Inspire Writer. And writing directly into docx obviously works perfectly.

The combining options in Inspire Writer work well; in iA Writer the embed system export requires combining files one at a time - functional but quite high friction if done often, and no preview.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1134 on:** May 13, 2022, 04:58 PM »

Given the lack of a reasonable combine and export option in Obsidian
-Dormouse (May 12, 2022, 06:09 PM)

While I was looking at it, I thought I ought to work out what I think is currently the best workflow for longform writing in Obsidian. The lack of tools for a single file approach makes it hard to recommend that purely. So, ..

A separate vault (or folder) for the long project.

Plugins required:

Bartender (for manual sequencing of files in the file explorer)
Pandoc (possibly + Obsidian Enhancing Export)
Novel word count (for visible word or page counts for each file or folder)
Better word count or File info panel (for word counts including a count for selected text, in the current note; and other info in the FIP)
Note Refactor - (optional - to make files easier to split)
Hover Editor (to give the option to do all the editing via the large document rather than the separate notes)

The basic technique is to have a single note that contains all the scenes, chapters etc as embeds, and then to export that document into the desired format.

Workflow(s) - there's a number of options.
One would be to write from the beginning using the large note with embeds and headings. I feel it is likely to be better to only do that at a later stage.
Easier to start in the conventional Scrivener/Ulysses way with separate scene/chapter notes in the explorer. With bartender, and using folders, it's easy to see everything in sequence and with their word count (via Novel Word Count). Once you are ready, you can select all the required notes and paste into a new note as links, and then make those links embeds. The bartender sequence will not be preserved, but, if the embeds are made into headings, the outline will allow them to be moved around.

Export is straightforward, but attention needs to be paid to the line/paragraph distinction.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1135 on:** May 13, 2022, 06:27 PM »

Also notice Tangent Notes. Very early stages.
-Dormouse (February 19, 2022, 07:08 AM)

Just updated it. Does feel interesting. Very visual, card style interface. I could imagine working in it. Especially if I wrote many short pieces or short notes.

urlwolf · « **Reply #1136 on:** May 14, 2022, 12:14 PM »

Tangent is awesome. My flirting with logseq and neovide didn't go well. I wasted a lot of time. This is such a crucial app to get right that sometimes I spend too much time searching. But I'm happy I found Tangent. This forum delivers!

Dormouse · « **Reply #1137 on:** May 16, 2022, 10:44 AM »

Tangent is awesome
-urlwolf (May 14, 2022, 12:14 PM)

Once you have spent enough time with it, I'd be interested in your ideas of its strengths and weaknesses.
It feels too early in its development for me to use it (and my current use cases don't seem ideally suited ot it), but I have liked the look and feel when I've looked it over.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1138 on:** May 19, 2022, 05:30 PM »

I've noticed a little quirk in using outlines and headings.

Functionally they are the same, apart from heading levels being limited where outlines are not - and OPML translates them as if they are the same. But they don't ever feel the same, especially in markdown.

I've realised that's because my mind - and, I believe, most minds - pick up on the numbers in the headings and allocate some type of category. Outlines are just like folgezettel - they have parents, and maybe children, but no absolute number. Markdown headings are very fixed 1-6 and are usually directly written. Interestingly, headings in Word aren't quite like that - although they are 1-9, the most recommended workflow seems to manage them by increasing or decreasing their level rather than allocating one; and the number is rarely mentioned - it's all just styling. This make WP headings much more like an outline. Some markdown based programs also go for the increase/decrease workflow but the number always takes mental precedence over the hierarchical relationship.

I know better than to fight such embedded unconscious thought patterns and henceforth will stick to using outlines & WP headings, except where having an absolute level and number makes sense.

urlwolf · « **Reply #1139 on:** May 19, 2022, 05:42 PM »

This one is also interesting: https://www.flowpilot.co/
'Start with the end in mind' sounds solid. Didn't try it for a project.
Tangent feels extremely good. They have solved a giant problem: graph view is useless on other tools. Not here. You build up the graph as you think. And see only the parts you have just used.

It's very similar to how I used big paper to think.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1140 on:** May 19, 2022, 06:41 PM »

Also saw this one: https://app.flowtelic.com. Haven't tried it at all. If I can't immediately see what I'd get out of it, I tend to make a note and pass on, maybe to revisit later. But I'm not keen on web apps and rather dubious about PWA for anything important, which has put me off wavemaker.

Glad to hear you are getting something out of Tangent. I'm content to use the tools I have for now (they're working well enough to be productive and I need to spend some time actually doing rather than constantly exploring new), but I like to keep my eyes open. Your comment about the graph is interesting - I've not found them useful previously and tbh never really tried them seriously as I wasn't clear what I'd get from using them. Makes sense that it's more useful if it's an active part of working.

One irritation I'm still having is the lack of hoisting in markdown programs. Folding appears to be standard, but hoisting much less so. And yet focus requires both.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1141 on:** May 22, 2022, 01:44 PM »

Video of a plugin being developed for Obsidian
From the Obsidian discord.

superboyac · « **Reply #1142 on:** May 22, 2022, 09:06 PM »

Video of a plugin being developed for Obsidian
From the Obsidian discord.
-Dormouse (May 22, 2022, 01:44 PM)

that's pretty cool

Dormouse · « **Reply #1143 on:** May 27, 2022, 05:41 AM »

Nothing quite works as well as it did. My eyes have reacted to the higher light levels (or just decided to have a change), and most of the dark modes are too stark, and the light modes too light. I can manage with them, but it's harder.

And that's one advantage of Obsidian. There are so many themes and colour settings and the Style Settings plugin that switching from one to the other - even multiple times a day - is pretty easy. So I will use it more. Back to the Boox too.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1144 on:** May 27, 2022, 05:45 AM »

I'd have to add an extra process (double spacing lines in text editor) if I wanted genuine paragraphs without adjusting keyboard behaviour to double Enter every time I pressed Enter should I type in Obsidian or iA Writer and export through iA Writer, Writage or Typora. Writing in Typora always exports as I want, as does writing in Inspire Writer. And writing directly into docx obviously works perfectly
-Dormouse (May 12, 2022, 06:09 PM)

I've decided, for now, that I need to use the text editor more - as a final process before my daily commit. That allows me to be agnostic about the programs I write in. And I have even realised that there can be compositional advantages from writing in bullets. Sometimes.

urlwolf · « **Reply #1145 on:** May 30, 2022, 06:40 AM »

The more I use Tangent, the more I realize what Taylor Hadden is building is truly revolutionary. It really is a bike for the brain. He has a knack for investing on the right things, and for designing an UX that produces clearer thinking

Dormouse · « **Reply #1146 on:** June 14, 2022, 07:29 PM »

There has been a new Insider update 0.15 tonight. I'm sure that many of the bugs will be caught while it stays inside, but I'd warn that it's a major change that breaks quite a few workflows (and I'm sure themes and plugins) with more UI changes to come. So, if you like the workflow you have, its worth turning automatic updates off until everything is ironed out (at least once you have moved onto 0.14.15).

It incorporates a major update in Codemirror and effectively gives warning that the legacy (non-Live Preview) editor is entering its final weeks/months.

superboyac · « **Reply #1147 on:** June 14, 2022, 10:08 PM »

The more I use Tangent, the more I realize what Taylor Hadden is building is truly revolutionary. It really is a bike for the brain. He has a knack for investing on the right things, and for designing an UX that produces clearer thinking
-urlwolf (May 30, 2022, 06:40 AM)

Whoa nice rec there! Tangent is VERY nice, indeed. Damn.

Attronarch · « **Reply #1148 on:** June 15, 2022, 02:29 PM »

The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)

I can only speak for myself. At the beginning of my doctorate I decided that I want to read any paper or book only once. I take copious notes of key arguments, my thoughts, feelings, etc. All of these are compiled in a master note for that reading piece. All notes are tagged. Every few months I'll be looking at new connections, sometimes writing a new note summarising my new insight. The biggest value is in making those connections. Is it worth it? For me it is, since I use my notes when writing papers. For example, I wrote a high-quality academic paper of 10 000 words in two days. I could write fast because I knew I already have good sources for my claims and arguments.

superboyac · « **Reply #1149 on:** June 15, 2022, 03:02 PM »

The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)

I can only speak for myself. At the beginning of my doctorate I decided that I want to read any paper or book only once. I take copious notes of key arguments, my thoughts, feelings, etc. All of these are compiled in a master note for that reading piece. All notes are tagged. Every few months I'll be looking at new connections, sometimes writing a new note summarising my new insight. The biggest value is in making those connections. Is it worth it? For me it is, since I use my notes when writing papers. For example, I wrote a high-quality academic paper of 10 000 words in two days. I could write fast because I knew I already have good sources for my claims and arguments.
-Attronarch (June 15, 2022, 02:29 PM)

If you do it as you have described with your discipline, it is totally worth it! I agree. The ability to churn out a coherent and detailed document is the best value IMO.