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Last post Author Topic: Worth Reading: Trevor Pott's editorial on NSA PRISM and its real ramifications  (Read 175619 times)

CWuestefeld

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Or we could do what Aerosmith was/is still singing about....'Eat the rich'.

Lightweights. Do it the right way, with Motörhead:

40hz

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Even more from the NYT <article here>...

Web’s Reach Binds N.S.A. and Silicon Valley Leaders
By JAMES RISEN and NICK WINGFIELD
Published: June 19, 2013


WASHINGTON — When Max Kelly, the chief security officer for Facebook, left the social media company in 2010, he did not go to Google, Twitter or a similar Silicon Valley concern. Instead the man who was responsible for protecting the personal information of Facebook’s more than one billion users from outside attacks went to work for another giant institution that manages and analyzes large pools of data: the National Security Agency.

Mr. Kelly’s move to the spy agency, which has not previously been reported, underscores the increasingly deep connections between Silicon Valley and the agency and the degree to which they are now in the same business. Both hunt for ways to collect, analyze and exploit large pools of data about millions of Americans.

The only difference is that the N.S.A. does it for intelligence, and Silicon Valley does it to make money.

A Skype executive denied last year in a blog post that recent changes in the way Skype operated were made at the behest of Microsoft to make snooping easier for law enforcement. It appears, however, that Skype figured out how to cooperate with the intelligence community before Microsoft took over the company, according to documents leaked by Edward J. Snowden, a former contractor for the N.S.A. One of the documents about the Prism program made public by Mr. Snowden says Skype joined Prism on Feb. 6, 2011.

Microsoft executives are no longer willing to affirm statements, made by Skype several years ago, that Skype calls could not be wiretapped. Frank X. Shaw, a Microsoft spokesman, declined to comment.

Here's the Skype blog post referenced in the NYT article. I pulled a copy because I expect it to disappear or be 'edited' "real soon now."

It's long...
What Does Skype's Architecture Do?

07/26/2012 in Big Blog by Mark Gillett


In the last few days we have seen reports in the media we believe are inaccurate and could mislead the Skype community about our approach to user security and privacy. I want to clear this up.

At Skype, we continue to be humbled and grateful for the commitment to our product that we see from our truly global user community. We focus every day on building the best possible product for sharing experiences whenever people are apart. We want Skype to be reliable, fast, easy to use, and in most cases – free. It works for Moms and Dads, teachers, soldiers, kids and sisters, brothers, grandparents, lovers and old friends all over the world. Our growth during the last nine years shows we are on the right path, and to our entire community, we say “thank you.” We are privileged to serve 250 million active users each month and support 115 billion minutes of person to person live communications in the last quarter alone. We believe that communication is a fundamental human need and that while we’ve been privileged with tremendous success we are just scratching the surface of the communications experiences that we plan to create.

Of course, this doesn’t happen by magic. It is no small technical challenge to make sure that people can connect whenever and wherever they wish. It requires investment, innovation and commitment to using new technology and capabilities. In addition to solving the challenges of scaling and providing reliable, dependable communications that people love, we operate globally and have an obligation to operate responsibly. We are committed to doing a great job at both – providing a phenomenal experience for all users, and acting as a responsible global citizen.

Despite these efforts, some media stories recently have suggested Skype may be acting improperly or based on ulterior motives against our users’ interests. Nothing could be more contrary to the Skype philosophy.

Let me restate some of the allegations and provide the facts.

It has been suggested that Skype made changes in its architecture at the behest of Microsoft in order to provide law enforcement with greater access to our users’ communications.

False.

Skype’s architecture decisions are based on our desire to provide the best possible product to our users. Skype was in the process of developing and moving supernodes to cloud servers significantly ahead of the Microsoft acquisition of Skype. Skype first deployed ‘mega-supernodes’ to the cloud to improve reliability of the Skype software and service in December 2010. These nodes have been deployed in Skype’s own data centres, within third-party infrastructure such as Amazon’s EC2, and most recently within Microsoft’s data-centers and cloud. The move was made in order to improve the Skype experience, primarily to improve the reliability of the platform and to increase the speed with which we can react to problems. The move also provides us with the ability to quickly introduce cool new features that allow for a fuller, richer communications experience in the future.

Early this year we completed our move of all of our supernodes into Microsoft’s global data-center footprint so we and our users can benefit from the network connectivity and support that powers Microsoft’s other global scale cloud software including Xbox Live, Bing, SkyDrive, Hotmail and Office 365. This provides a real benefit to our users and to our ability to continue to scale the Skype product.

It has been suggested that Skype has recently changed its posture and policies with regard to law enforcement.

False.

The move to supernodes was not intended to facilitate greater law enforcement access to our users’ communications. Skype has had a team of Skype employees to respond to legal demands and requests from law enforcement since 2005. While we are focused on building the best possible products and experiences for our users, we also fundamentally believe that making a great product experience also means we must act responsibly and make it safe for everyone to use. Our position has always been that when a law enforcement entity follows the appropriate procedures, we respond where legally required and technically feasible. We have a policy posted to our main website that provides additional background on our position on this matter.

It has been suggested that as a result of recent architecture changes Skype now monitors and records audio and video calls of our users.

False.

The move to in-house hosting of “supernodes” does not provide for monitoring or recording of calls. “Supernodes” help Skype clients to locate each other so that Skype calls can be made. Simply put, supernodes act as a distributed directory of Skype users. Skype to Skype calls do not flow through our data centres and the “supernodes” are not involved in passing media (audio or video) between Skype clients.

These calls continue to be established directly between participating Skype nodes (clients). In some cases, Skype has added servers to assist in the establishment, management or maintenance of calls; for example, a server is used to notify a client that a new call is being initiated to it and where the full Skype application is not running (e.g. the device is suspended, sleeping or requires notification of the incoming call), or in a group video call, where a server aggregates the media streams (video) from multiple clients and routes this to clients that might not otherwise have enough bandwidth to establish connections to all of the participants.

We believe that servers are the best way to solve these technical challenges, and provide the best possible experience to our user community.

As has always been the case, SkypeOut calls and incoming telephone calls to Skype on-line numbers (PSTN calls) do flow through gateways of our PSTN partners as this is required in order to connect them to the traditional telephone network.

It has been suggested that the changes we have made were made to facilitate law enforcement access to instant messages on Skype.

False.

The enhancements we have been making to our software and infrastructure have been to improve user experience and reliability. Period.

In order to provide for the delivery and synchronization of instant messages across multiple devices, and in order to manage the delivery of messages between clients situated behind some firewalls which prevent direct connections between clients, some messages are stored temporarily on our (Skype/Microsoft) servers for immediate or later delivery to a user.

As I have outlined above, if a law enforcement entity follows the appropriate procedures and we are asked to access messages stored temporarily on our servers, we will do so. I must reiterate we will do so only if legally required and technically feasible.

Some commentators have suggested that Skype has stopped protecting its users’ communications.

False.

Skype software autonomously applies encryption to Skype to Skype calls between computers, smartphones and other mobile devices with the capacity to carry a full version of Skype software as it always has done. This has not changed. The China-only version of the Skype software provided locally through our joint-venture partner tom.com contains a chat filter in accordance with local law.

As I described at the outset, our users and their Skype experience is our first priority.

We have an amazingly loyal and committed global user community and we believe that our users deserve the best products we can build.

Every day we focus on connecting Skype users to the people who matter to them, whether they are in Moscow, Miami or Mumbai and whether they are on PCs, iPhones, televisions, Windows Phones, Macs or Android devices. We constantly strive to design and deliver effective, safe and reliable communications software that is easy to use. We hope you will continue to love Skype.

Thank you for your continued support, use and passion about our products.

- Mark


I particularly appreciate the spin doctoring when they chose to use the weasel-worded phrase: "It has been suggested..."  when it would have been far more accurate, and in keeping with the the nature of the original concerns to say: "Skype has been accused..."
 :-\

TaoPhoenix

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I particularly appreciate the spin doctoring when they chose to use the weasel-worded phrase: "It has been suggested..."  when it would have been far more accurate, and in keeping with the the nature of the original concerns to say: "Skype has been accused..."

Oh! I know this song!
"I called the Spin Doctor and what did he say? I called the Spin Doctor and what did he say? He said, "Ohh, eee, Ohh Ahh Ahh, Microsoft Bing, Walla Walla Ching Chang!"


app103

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Bernie Sanders has introduced the Restore Our Privacy Act:

Read the bill here (pdf): http://www.sanders.s...%20Privacy%20Act.pdf

And has a petition up on his site: http://www.sanders.s...7d-b03e-0c790a6b9aa6

The legislation filed late yesterday would put limits on records that may be searched. Authorities would be required to establish a reasonable suspicion, based on specific information, in order to secure court approval to monitor business records related to a specific terrorism suspect.

Sanders’ bill would put an end to open-ended court orders that have resulted in wholesale data mining by the NSA and FBI. Instead, the government would be required to provide reasonable suspicion to justify searches for each record or document that it wants to examine.

The measure would eliminate a presumption in current law that anyone “known to” a suspect is relevant to the investigation. It also would increase congressional oversight by requiring the attorney general to provide reports to all members of Congress, not only members of the judiciary and intelligence committees.

http://www.sanders.s...40-BEB9-25BB5DC13A18

Tinman57

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  So, it looks like the British are in on it.  No big surprise here.....

British intelligence tapping fiber-optic cables for massive amounts of data
06.21.2013 3:55 PM
More secret NSA documents leaked by Edward Snowden suggest that the U.S. agency's British counterpart intercepts petabytes worth of communication data daily from fiber-optic cables.  The operation codenamed “Tempora” by Britain’s Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) has been going on for at least 18 months and involves the use of “intercept probes” attached directly to transatlantic fiber-optic cables landing on British shores from telephone exchanges and Internet servers in North America.

http://www.pcworld.c...amounts-of-data.html

IainB

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Interesting spinoff. As a result of the revelations about the NSA, Duck search is apparently going great guns: Search Engine Privacy - DuckDuckGo does not track its users.

Stoic Joker

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Cool, but why does the DuckDuckGo image search route through either Bing or Google?? Are they abstracting the personal info out of the query somehow...or is it/one still exposed?

IainB

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Cool, but why does the DuckDuckGo image search route through either Bing or Google?? Are they abstracting the personal info out of the query somehow...or is it/one still exposed?
Hahaha. Is there no end to your skepticism?
You're probably quite right though. Enquiring minds need to know.
For this reason I wouldn't usually touch Duck with a bargepole, and I would suggest that other users operate on the same principle that I do - that there will be tracks all over the place, but if Duck is (apparently) not recording them, then that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody else isn't recording them - until proven otherwise, at least.

What I find interesting though is the operation of human assumption/belief:
(from the link)
GW: We were close to 2 million queries a day before the NSA story broke. Since then, traffic has passed 3 million. We've broken records.

Stoic Joker

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Is that the ruthless dictators first show up as saviors angle ...(Just because DDG isn't storing the info doesn't mean filters can't be implemented at some point after the target fattens up a bit)... Or am I being to skeptical again.

40hz

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You can introduce all the legislation and issue all the guidelines you want. This genie is out of its bottle and never going to go completely back in. Even if the plug were pulled tomorrow, there is a multi-billion dollar investment in facilities and infrastructure modifications that put this system in place. And it was accomplished almost entirely without any public awareness or legislative oversight.

No government ever walks away from an investment of that magnitude.

And the simple fact such technology exists makes it almost inevitable that it will be used. If not today, then a year or ten from now when some cleverly orchestrated (if you're completely cynical) or carefully choreographed (if you're not) "crisis" or "national emergency" arises to argue for its "necessity." Like strategic weapons, you can lock them away in bunkers and silos, but they're still there. And they always will be. Even if you completely dismantle them. Because the technology still exists to recreate them at will. And the desire to do so is never completely absent.

Things like PRISM can easily be switched off by executive order tomorrow morning. But they can also just as easily be secretly switched back on an hour later. And that's the rub. You will never really know now that our government has completely crossed the line it began stepping over at the start of the cold war. An attitude those of you who were around in the 60s and 70s may remember as that widely bandied about right-wing slogan (misquoting Stephen Decatur) that went: "My Country, Right or Wrong!" It was very popular among the Hardhats and The American Legion.

If you don't know what a hardhat was
hardhat.jpg

(from Wikipedia)

On May 4, 1970, thirteen students were shot, four fatally, at Kent State University in Ohio during a protest of the Vietnam War and the incursion into Cambodia. As a show of sympathy for the dead students, then-Republican Mayor of New York City John Lindsay ordered all flags at New York City Hall to be flown at half-staff the same day.

The Hard Hat Riot occurred on May 8 1970 in Lower Manhattan. The riot started about noon when about 200 construction workers mobilized by the New York State AFL-CIO attacked about 1,000 high school and college students and others protesting the Kent State shootings, the American invasion of Cambodia and the Vietnam War near the intersection of Wall Street and Broad Street. The riot, which spread to New York City Hall, lasted little more than two hours. More than 70 people were injured, including four policemen. Six people were arrested.

At 7:30 am on May 8, several hundred anti-war protesters (most of them high school and college students) began holding a memorial at Broad and Wall Streets for the four dead students at Kent State. By late morning, the protesters—now numbering more than a thousand—had moved to the steps of Federal Hall, gathering in front of the statue of George Washington which tops the steps. The protesters demanded an end to the war in Vietnam and Cambodia, the release of "political prisoners" in the United States, and an end to military-related research on all university campuses.

At five minutes to noon, about 200 construction workers converged on the student rally at Federal Hall from four directions. Nearly all the construction workers carried American flags and signs that read "All the way, USA," and "America, Love it or Leave it." Their numbers may have been doubled by others who had joined them as they marched toward Federal Hall. A thin line of police formed to separate the construction workers from the anti-war protesters. At first, the construction workers only pushed but did not break through the police line. After two minutes, however, the workers broke through the police line and began chasing students through the streets. The workers chose those with the longest hair and beat them with their hard hats and otherwise. Attorneys, bankers and investment analysts from nearby Wall Street investment firms tried to protect many of the students but were themselves attacked. Onlookers reported that the police stood by and did nothing.

Some of the construction workers and counter-protesters moved across City Hall Park toward New York City Hall. They mounted the steps, planted their flags at the top of the steps, then attempted to gain entrance to City Hall. Police on duty at City Hall initially barred them, but soon the mob pushed past these guards. A few workers entered the building. A postal worker rushed onto the roof of City Hall and raised the American flag there to full mast. When city workers lowered the flag back down to half-mast, a large number of construction workers stormed past the police. Deputy Mayor Richard Aurelio, fearing the building would be overrun by the mob, ordered city workers to raise the flag back to full mast.

Rioting construction workers also attacked buildings near City Hall. They ripped the Red Cross and Episcopal Church flags down from a flag pole at nearby Trinity Church. One group invaded a nearby Pace University building, smashing lobby windows with clubs and crowbars and beating up students.

More than 70 people were injured, including four policemen. Most of the injured required hospital treatment. Only six people were arrested.[

During a press conference that evening, President Nixon tried to defuse the situation before tens of thousands of students arrived in Washington, D.C. for a scheduled protest rally the next day. Nixon said he agreed with everything the protesters were trying to accomplish, and defended the recent U.S. troop movements into Cambodia as aiding their goal of peace.[2][7][9]

Mayor Lindsay severely criticized the police for their lack of action. Police Department organization leaders later accused Lindsay of "undermining the confidence of the public in its Police Department" by his statements, and blamed the inaction on inadequate preparations and "inconsistent directives" in the past from the Mayor's office.

On May 11, Brennan and officials of other unions said that the confrontation had been a spontaneous reaction by union workers "fed up" with violence and flag desecration by antiwar demonstrators, and denied that anything except fists had been used against the demonstrators. Brennan said that telephone calls and letters to the unions were 20 to 1 in favor of the workers. It was generally believed that the action by construction workers was not premeditated, though one man claimed to have seen suited men directing the workers.

Several thousand construction workers, longshoremen and white-collar workers protested against the mayor on May 11, holding signs reading "impeach the Red Mayor" and chanting "Lindsay is a bum". They held another rally May 16, carrying signs calling the mayor a "rat", "Commy rat" and "traitor". Lindsay described the mood of the city as "taut". The rallies culminated in a large rally on May 20 in which an estimated 150,000 construction and other workers peacefully marched through the streets of downtown New York City. Workers in the surrounding buildings showed their support by showering the marchers with ticker tape.



In many respects, this battle is already lost. Because you now have a large cadre of elected individuals and entrenched career bureaucrats who have crossed the line and self-redefined their functions and role. And they aren't willingly going to relinquish any of the power they have since seized for themselves.

The creation of something like PRISM or the NSA, which were both created with the deliberate intent of remaining absolutely secret - and intended to operate with utter disregard for law or the principles of a free society - is nothing other than the manifestation of the growing distrust and contempt, on the part of many in government, for the people they supposedly are empowered to serve.

At the very core of all of this is a large-scale and ongoing revolt on the part of our public servants. Servants who now wish to rule rather than serve.

stfu.jpg

It will only get far worse before it gets much better.  :(

Tinman57

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Cool, but why does the DuckDuckGo image search route through either Bing or Google?? Are they abstracting the personal info out of the query somehow...or is it/one still exposed?

  DDG, along with it's own results (or lack thereof) also includes Bing and Google searches and offers up a link for their results.  You will only get spied on (tracked) if you click on the GoOgle or Bing link.  Of course this don't mean anything when Prism sits between the search engine and your ISP, or between you and your ISP.....

Stoic Joker

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Of course this don't mean anything when Prism sits between the search engine and your ISP, or between you and your ISP.....

Yeah, that part's a given. I was just pondering the DDG microcosm part because it struck me as a bit of spin-doctored slight of hand. It smacks of all the sincerity you'd expect out of someone saying trust me in an ally.. 

IainB

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This NSA business had left me with the nagging feeling that I had seen it in a movie.
Tonight I was cataloguing one of my portable drives (all movies) using BooZet's Visual CD Version 4.0 and found the answer amongst a collection of short films. It's from YouTube: PLURALITY


40hz

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Two mind-numbing articles by Paul Craig Roberts:

Robert's Bio
About Dr. Paul Craig Roberts

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He was columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service, and Creators Syndicate. He has had many university appointments. His internet columns have attracted a worldwide following. His latest book, The Failure of Laissez Faire Capitalism and Economic Dissolution of the West is now available.


A New Beginning Without Washington’s Sanctimonious Mask

and

Stasi In The White House

These posts pull no punches. (And here I thought I was royally pissed off! :tellme:)

just to know.png

Here's a few highlights:

Obama’s speech was delivered to a relatively small, specially selected audience of invitees.  Even so, Obama spoke from behind bullet proof glass.

Obama’s speech will go down in history as the most hypocritical of all time. Little wonder that the audience was there by invitation only. A real audience would have hooted Obama out of Berlin.

This is the same Obama who promised to close the Guantanamo Torture Prison, but did not;  the same Obama who promised to tell us the purpose for Washington’s decade-long war in Afghanistan, but did not;  the same Obama who promised to end the wars, but started new ones;  the same Obama who said he stood for the US Constitution, but shredded it;  the same Obama who refused to hold the Bush regime accountable for its crimes against law and humanity;  the same Obama who unleashed drones against civilian populations in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen;  the same Obama who claimed and exercised power to murder US citizens without due process and who continues the Bush regime’s unconstitutional practice of violating habeas corpus and detaining US citizens indefinitely; the same Obama who promised transparency but runs the most secretive government in US history.

Obama has taken hypocrisy to new heights. He has destroyed US civil liberties guaranteed by the Constitution.  In place of a government accountable to law, he has turned law into a weapon in the hands of the government.  He has intimidated a free press and prosecutes whistleblowers who reveal his government’s crimes. He makes no objection when American police brutalize peacefully protesting citizens. His government intercepts and stores in National Security Agency computers every communication of every American and also the private communications of Europeans and Canadians, including the communications of the members of the governments, the better to blackmail those with secrets.  Obama sends in drones or assassins to murder people in countries with which the US is not at war, and his victims on most occasions turn out to be women, children, farmers, and village elders. Obama kept Bradley Manning in solitary confinement for nearly a year assaulting his human dignity in an effort to break him and obtain a false confession. In defiance of the US Constitution, Obama denied Manning a trial for three years.

Obama has turned America into a surveillance state that has far more in common with Stasi East Germany than with the America of the Kennedy and Reagan eras. Strange, isn’t it, that freedom was gained in East Germany and lost in America.

------------------

It is not clear to an ordinary person what Snowden has revealed that William Binney and other whistleblowers have not already revealed. Perhaps the difference is that Snowden has provided documents that prove it, thereby negating Washington’s ability to deny the facts with its usual lies.

Here we have a US Secretary of State lost in delusion along with the rest of Washington. A country that is bankrupt, a country that has allowed its corporations to destroy its economy by moving the best jobs offshore, a country whose future is in the hands of the printing press, a country that after eleven years of combat has been unable to defeat a few thousand lightly armed Taliban is now threatening Russia and China. God save us from the utter fools who comprise our government.

The world is enjoying Washington’s humiliation at the hands of Hong Kong. A mere city state gave Washington the bird.

The stuck pig squeals from the NSA director–”Edward Snowden has caused irreversible damage to US”–are matched by the obliging squeals from members of the House and Senate, themselves victims of the NSA spying, as was the Director of the CIA who was forced to resign because of a love affair. The NSA is in position to blackmail everyone in the House and Senate, in the White House itself, in all the corporations, the universities, the media, every organization at home and abroad, who has anything to hide. You can tell who is being blackmailed by the intensity of the squeals, such as those of Dianne Feinstein (D, CA) and Mike Rogers (R, MI). With any luck, a patriot will leak what the NSA has on Feinstein and Rogers, neither of whom could possibly scrape any lower before the NSA.

The gangster government in Washington that has everything to hide is now in NSA’s hands and will follow orders. The pretense that amerika is a democracy responsible to the people has been exposed. The US is run by and for the NSA. Congress and the White House are NSA puppets.

Let’s quit calling the NSA the National Security Agency. Clearly, NSA is a threat to the security of every person in the entire world. Let’s call the NSA what it really is–the National Stasi Agency, the largest collection of Gestapo in human history. You can take for granted that every media whore, every government prostitute, every ignorant flag-waver who declares Snowden to be a traitor is either brainwashed or blackmailed. They are the protectors of NSA tyranny. They are our enemies.

The world has been growing increasingly sick of Washington for a long time. The bullying, the constant stream of lies, the gratuitous wars and destruction have destroyed the image hyped by Washington of the US as a “light unto the world.” The world sees the US as a plague upon the world.

Mr. Roberts, you're awesome! :Thmbsup:

CWuestefeld

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Two mind-numbing articles by Paul Craig Roberts:

I'm afraid you're crossing the line into partisan politics.

I agree with the overall conclusion you're presenting here. But, bad as the situation that they describe is, these articles do contain untruths and exaggerations (I won't enumerate them, because I don't want to dig deeper into the political quagmire). Presenting things in this manner undermines the effort in the long run: it gives the bad guys the opportunity to rebut trivial details while ignoring the big picture, and it robs us of (some of) the moral high ground.

IainB

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@40hz: I'm confuzzled. Do Americans really need things like the 2 articles by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts before they can see the stark reality of what has been happening and what is still happening to their country and the US Constitution?

wraith808

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Two mind-numbing articles by Paul Craig Roberts:

I'm afraid you're crossing the line into partisan politics.

I agree with the overall conclusion you're presenting here. But, bad as the situation that they describe is, these articles do contain untruths and exaggerations (I won't enumerate them, because I don't want to dig deeper into the political quagmire). Presenting things in this manner undermines the effort in the long run: it gives the bad guys the opportunity to rebut trivial details while ignoring the big picture, and it robs us of (some of) the moral high ground.

Agreed +1

40hz

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I find it interesting how so many are willing to concede our government's right to spin stories, send off flames, bully pulpit and dead-cat its opponents, and lie at will to the public - yet very quickly label any nose tweaking or blunt editorial characterizations in return as being "partisan politics."

Our enthroned leadership has made an art form out of using so-called "partisan" political strategies and debating techniques. That's one of the reasons they have been - and continue to be - so successful.

FWIW, I think we can have "intelligent" and "measured" and "respectful" dialog about this whole problem until the cows come home. The only way any real change will come about (or even become possible) is if the general public feels sufficient anger and disgust about what is going on to force changes. Because it isn't ever the "bright promise for the future" that stirs our public out of its chronic political llethargy. It's the hard realization that "enough is enough" and that "I am no longer willing to tolerate this behavior - starting now" that brings about social change. Something that our politicians understand and have learned to take advantage of all too well. Because they're often the first to remind you "you're better than that"; and that "you shouldn't talk that way"; and suggest you try to "exercise proper restraint and some consideration with your comments" - because they certainly aren't going to do the same with theirs.

I have long since passed the point where I am willing to allow our politicians to unilaterally frame (or more often re-frame) the debate, set the rules for discourse, or define the terms being used. That is a courtesy I will extend to people of goodwill who are actively and honestly attempting to work toward finding a solution and undoing the damage they have caused. And I have yet to see any politicians matching that description show up.



If Robert's articles step on some toes - or offend some sensitivities - so be it. Some toes deserve to be stepped on. And some sensitivities need to be offended. Because as long as this situation can be ignored, or finessed, or rationalized ("It's legal!) or endlessly and genteelly debated on forums and in coffee shops by "people who think and worry too much"...then it will only continue.

Right now we live with the uncomfortable and potentially dangerous situation of a powerful administration being caught out in series of incontrovertible lies and hypocritical acts going back several years. And, like all liars who have been found out, this administration is responding predictably as liars do. We're now seeing the usual psychotic attempts for it to"explain (i.e. lie) it's way out" as its former support base begins to crumble.

Hardly a time to pull too many punches IMHO.

But maybe that's just me? My problem is -  I've seen this sort of thing before. Although nowhere near this bad. And it wasn't fixed that time by people being overly polite about it.

And it won't this time either.

YMMV :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 11:03 AM by 40hz »

40hz

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@40hz: I'm confuzzled. Do Americans really need things like the 2 articles by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts before they can see the stark reality of what has been happening and what is still happening to their country and the US Constitution?

Yes.


wraith808

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I find it interesting how so many are willing to concede our government's right to spin stories, send off flames, bully pulpit and dead-cat its opponents, and lie at will to the public - yet very quickly label any nose tweaking or blunt editorial characterizations in return as being "partisan politics."

Our enthroned leadership has made an art form out of using so-called "partisan" political strategies and debating techniques. That's one of the reasons they have been - and continue to be - so successful.

FWIW, I think we can have "intelligent" and "measured" and "respectful" dialog about this whole problem until the cows come home. The only way any real change will come about (or even become possible) is if the general public feels sufficient anger and disgust about what is going on to force changes. Because it isn't ever the "bright promise for the future" that stirs our public out of its chronic political llethargy. It's the hard realization that "enough is enough" and that "I am no longer willing to tolerate this behavior - starting now" that brings about social change. Something that our politicians understand and have learned to take advantage of all too well. Because they're often the first to remind you "you're better than that"; and that "you shouldn't talk that way"; and suggest you try to "exercise proper restraint and some consideration with your comments" - because they certainly aren't going to do the same with theirs.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

And I think that's where it is in the end.  And ideological struggle.  Not for dominance, because it is the fight that is important.  We talked about Obama before, and how utterly he changed his tune.  We've talked about entrenched politicians, and how inured to the demands of the office over the demands of the political arena they become.

They don't start out that way.  But they make concessions in order to serve the greater good.  And that slippery slope eventually claims them.

Lies are damn lies, no matter if they're told for the greater good.  And if you tell one, you're more willing to tell the next.  And then descend to their tactics.  And then, by the time you win, you look back at the broken road that you took to get here, and can't really pinpoint the time that you became what you are... which is what you formerly hated.

The Truth should stand on its own merits.  Or it's not worth the medium used to deliver it.  And anything you tarnish it with makes it somewhat less than it should be.

We need to come together as one voice, one people... sex, creed, race, beliefs, orientation be damned and say that we stand for Truth and the Rule of Law, and we will accept nothing else.  No games, no twisting of words, nor hyperbole to exaggerate the situation.  And not let any of those things divide us.  That is why I'm against any hint of partisan politics as usual in the phrasing of any of this.  It's about something greater than that, IMO.

Of course, as you say, YMMV.

CWuestefeld

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^^^ Wraith's post above is one to put into your scrapbook.

Stoic Joker

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Governments-Fear-People.png

Apparently there is a bit more reasoned version of this by one of the original crew:

Governments-Fear-People.jpg
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 01:19 PM by Stoic Joker »

40hz

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We need to come together as one voice, one people... sex, creed, race, beliefs, orientation be damned and say that we stand for Truth and the Rule of Law, and we will accept nothing else.  No games, no twisting of words, nor hyperbole to exaggerate the situation.  And not let any of those things divide us.  That is why I'm against any hint of partisan politics as usual in the phrasing of any of this.  It's about something greater than that, IMO.

I agree.

And if you ever figure out how to make that work, let me know and I'll be the first to sign on.

Unfortunately, my experience with both attempting and actually bringing about social change doesn't bear that sentiment out. And I should know. I felt the same way you do for a good portion of my life.

In the end it always took something fairly stupid, providential, and semi-unrelated to get the ball rolling with the issues I got seriously involved in. Most people I've met don't like to think about higher principles. They're annoyed by them more often than not. But what they do understand is feelings, and "gut" reactions, plus what they "just know."

Long aside. Feel free to skip.
It used to frustrate me. And for a while it even made me see the "uninvolved" as worthy of contempt. But I soon realized that people are people - and they are what they are. It's not so much a "sheeple" thing, to use the current vernacular. It's just that they have a lot of things to worry about and do. And anything that doesn't directly and immediately interfere with what they want/need to do (i.e. make money, eat, sleep, feel safe, have sex, raise kids, see a dentist, keep their job, feed the dog, etc.) gets pushed onto their back-burner. It's a survival tool. Triage plain and simple. You start at the bottom of the needs hierarchy and move up from there.

I have a personal theory that social activism and revolutionary thinking springs from the extreme opposite poles of a single continuum. On one side is the point where people's backs are completely against the wall. At the other end is the point where too many people have too much free time on their hands. From my perspective, societal change and reform is born out of either desperation - or excess leisure.

Sometimes there's a bit of both. You have the have-nots working in conjunction a small group of morally motivated haves to bring about change. This creates a push-pull dynamic where those who stand to benefit maintain pressure - while those on the other end get more of their peers to see it their way and support the underdog.

The American civil rights movement back in the 50s/60s worked that way. College kids, wealthy people and self-styled intellectuals worked side by side with an oppressed social minority and its religious ministers to make it happen. The 60s/70s Viet Nam antiwar movement largely did not. That was mostly an upper class college movement. One which took considerably longer to succeed since people subject to the draft  (who were not in college) mostly just went. And it wasn't until those on the short end of the stick stopped defending the US policy in Viet Nam that their politicians finally deemed it safe to break ranks and get the hell out of there.


Fancy way of saying a catchy slogan and the occasional cheap trick invariably accomplished more to kindle a fire than a summit of long meaningful discussions and "feel good" high road sessions ever did. Especially if it caused a laugh. (Those in power hate to be laughed at.)

Initiating any meaningful movement or groundswell relies on tactics. The long game needs a strategy to keep it on course, and make sure it follows through to its objective.

Right now I think we're in the tactical phase. Mr. Roberts' comments are pure tactics.

We haven't made it to the strategy phase because we still don't know the true extent of this problem. And there is a concerted effort afoot to make sure "we the people" won't ever know.

To get to the bottom of this tar pit, we'll need people who are genuinely in a position to know break ranks and inform us. Snowden was the first. But we'll need people who are both involved and much closer to the seats of power (i.e. Reps/Senators) to be jolted out of their fog and take a step back and find the "high road" again.

Because they're the ones who will ultimately have to put this nation back on it. In both a representative and truly legal manner. That's their charter and sworn duty. Otherwise, this government has reached the point of catastrophic failure - and it's mob rule time.

And that's one "solution" that would be ten times worse than the problem we already have.
 8)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 01:28 PM by 40hz »

40hz

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@SJ Wraith & CU - LOL! ;D

But please remember what happens when governments really become afraid of somebody.

People living in places like Baghdad, or who are being detained indefinitely and without charges under utterly inhumane conditions, can tell you exactly what some governments can also do when they get really nervous and pissed-off about something.
 ;)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 02:06 PM by 40hz »

Stoic Joker

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But please remember what happens when governments really become afraid of somebody.

Actually I posted the graphics assuming that's what you're LOL'ing.

People living in places like Baghdad, or who are being detained indefinitely and without charges under utterly inhumane conditions, can tell you exactly what some governments can also do when they get really nervous and pissed-off about something

That's not fearing the people...that's viewing them with contempt.