Does anyone here use Bitcoins?

[40hz]

@40hz - How could it be shut down? Shut down all encrypted traffic? I don't get how it's possible to shut down like that.

-Renegade (March 26, 2013, 10:22 PM)

Require a license and registration for access and use. Designate allowed forms of encryption. Go super "net nanny" and just firewall out everything other than registered commerce sites and government addresses. Put DNS under direct government control along with a change in methodology for how it works.

The possibilities are endless.

And if push comes to shove you could always just wall off the country ala China/N.Korea/etc. Or shut down the backbone routers and/or DNS servers.

It's doable. Not something you'd want to do right this minute. But long-term, requiring some sort of certificate or credential in order to access the Internet (or its successor) is probably coming. Add locked down computing appliances or NIC cards to the mix and you could make it happen in about 10 years without undue hardship for the average user.

Sad but true. The "good old days" will eventually come to an end for the Internet, just like they have for every new technology once it became mainstream and serious money started riding on it. To get something off the ground, allowing rapid innovation is the main thing. Once it's working "good enough" and widely deployed, the importance of chaotic innovation lessens as "standards" becomes the paramount concern. Finally, once the technology is established and entrenched, standards give way to concerns about regulation after the no longer 'new' technology gets fully assimilated into daily life.

[Renegade]

So, in summary... Full on "make Nineteen Eighty-Four looks like paradise".

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think we both know what will happen before that. We've discussed that in PMs, so I'll leave it out here for the sake of not pushing the elevator button.

[40hz]

So, in summary... Full on "make Nineteen Eighty-Four looks like paradise".

-Renegade (March 26, 2013, 10:59 PM)

Not so much a paradise as it's how benign it can all be be made to look now that the technology and labor-saving innovations for doing up a '1984' have improved so dramatically in the last ten years!



Even the uniforms have gotten really cool looking...

[Renegade]

Well, digressing from the obvious implications of a free market currency that has no central bank controlling it...

Here's a great chart to follow BTC.

WARNING: Be prepared to crap your pants and kick yourself...

http://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/



On the chart, make sure to click these:

Period: W1 D3 D1 H4 H1 M15 M5 M3 M1

Those let you zoom in. Weeks, days, hours and minutes. Here's a minutes chart (m5):



There's lots of volatility in the for the forex people.

I've been following corrections, and if you are a forex expert, you can capitalize on them and profit to insane degrees, but if not, they're simply bumps on the way up.

After I initially bought, I saw it drop, crapped myself for a moment, then calmed down and watched it rise well over my buying price.

I am extremely bullish on this. All the news and indicators point up. I fully expect it to breach the USD 100 mark very soon. That will be a major event in financial history.

The thing that I find absolutely fascinating about it is the power of the people in a P2P network to create such an incredible market.

Right now we are seeing the Wild, Wild West repeating itself online. It's a gold rush for anyone willing to jump in, get dirty, and start panning, and the barriers to entry are very low.

[40hz]

I am extremely bullish on this.

-Renegade (March 27, 2013, 08:26 AM)

Really? You think?  

The thing that I find absolutely fascinating about it is the power of the people in a P2P network to create such an incredible market.

It's all been done before. It will all be done again.

Right now we are seeing the Wild, Wild West repeating itself online. It's a gold rush for anyone willing to jump in, get dirty, and start panning, and the barriers to entry are very low.

Yup. It's whats called a totally out-of-control speculative bubble in progress. You can get the same (or better) odd at the blackjack table.

There's an old story (probably apocryphal) about how Old Man Rockefeller was on his way over to the Wall Street Exchange one morning, and overheard a stand of shoeshine boys and their customers swapping stock tips with each other. Stopping for a shine, Rockefeller listened attentively as his boy regaled him with one 'hot tip' after another.

After thanking the boy, and tipping him handsomely, Rockefeller (so the story goes) went to the exchange and calmly and slowly began (so as not to attract undue attention) selling off all the shares in his portfolio over the next three or four days. He then moved most of his money into secure government bonds. When the stock market crashed about a month later, Rockefeller's personal fortune was left largely intact.

When asked what tipped him off the market was going to tank, he said: a shoeshine boy.

Seems Rockefeller reasoned that when professional investors are the main force driving the markets, all is well. But when the speculators and amateurs show up in large numbers, the stock market is in serious trouble. Rockefeller supposedly said: When your doctor and lawyer are getting into the market, it's troubling. But when the butcher, the baker, and even the shoeshine boys begin discussing stock prices, it's time for the professionals to get out.

Or, as short version goes: To avoid injury, NEVER play hardball with amateurs.
 

[Renegade]

@40hz

Hehehehe!

Well Rockefeller sold his soul to Lucifer, so I have no illusions about his "endeavours". I can only think of a small handful of people equally sinister as him. Anyways... THAT is a VERY long rant.

I've been dodging major stock market manipulation and come out ahead of it by a good margin, though that is is a different and far more manipulated and volatile market than BTC.

If there is manipulation, it will become apparent very quickly. These things cannot be hidden.

Here's a tip for the Korean stock market... If you see 18 shares bought or sold, one of the market manipulators is VERY pissed off, and mostly likely by people manipulating the market in the opposite direction.

18 - NSFW

The Korean pronunciation for "18" is almost identical to "fuck you".

But really, if it's climbing, who cares? As long as you can climb upwards and jump off at the right time.

Markets are NOT about value - they are about PERCEIVED value. For BTC, this will continue for a long time for reasons better discussed in the Basement. (Or by PM/email/not DC main forums.)

[40hz]

But really, if it's climbing, who cares?

-Renegade (March 27, 2013, 09:56 AM)

Hmm...what was that you were saying earlier about selling one's soul to Lucifer?

[wraith808]

As long as you can climb upwards and jump off at the right time.

-Renegade (March 27, 2013, 09:56 AM)

And that- as many broke or dead from terminal forces after jumping off a high precipice day traders can attest to- is not as easy as putting those words to the keyboard is. 

[app103]

But you know who are and will continue to really make out like bandits with this? The guys with the botnets, distributing malware with bitcoin miner software, getting unsuspecting users to generate BTC for them when their computers are idle.

[Renegade]

But really, if it's climbing, who cares?

-Renegade (March 27, 2013, 09:56 AM)

Hmm...what was that you were saying earlier about selling one's soul to Lucifer?

-40hz (March 27, 2013, 10:07 AM)

At best I have a small mortgage!

As long as you can climb upwards and jump off at the right time.

-Renegade (March 27, 2013, 09:56 AM)

And that- as many broke or dead from terminal forces after jumping off a high precipice day traders can attest to- is not as easy as putting those words to the keyboard is.  

-wraith808 (March 27, 2013, 10:52 AM)

Ha. Ha. Ha. Laugh it up fly boy!

[Renegade]

But you know who are and will continue to really make out like bandits with this? The guys with the botnets, distributing malware with bitcoin miner software, getting unsuspecting users to generate BTC for them when their computers are idle.

-app103 (March 27, 2013, 12:03 PM)

I've actually thought of doing that... But.. alas.. I have this sense of right & wrong...

[app103]

But you know who are and will continue to really make out like bandits with this? The guys with the botnets, distributing malware with bitcoin miner software, getting unsuspecting users to generate BTC for them when their computers are idle.

-app103 (March 27, 2013, 12:03 PM)

I've actually thought of doing that... But.. alas.. I have this sense of right & wrong...

-Renegade (March 27, 2013, 12:10 PM)

You, me, and a lot of people I know. It didn't stop me from experimenting with a java applet on some of my websites, using the CPU of my visitors while they were on my site...till Google flagged the sites and stuck a malware warning on them in the search results. 

After 30 days, even with a bunch of people in the DC IRC channel trying to mess up my experiment by hitting the miner page and parking their PCs there and mining BTC for me, I still had not managed to generate a full BTC. And Krishean has some powerful computers!

[Tinman57]

Money-laundering rules for virtual currency

With the increasing popularity of online cash, there’s growing concern that virtual currencies bought on the Internet are funding illicit activities.

Now, standard banking rules aimed at suspicious dollar transfers will be applied to Web money. Companies that issue or exchange online cash will be regulated like traditional money-order providers, such as Western Union. Wall Street Journal reports.

http://www.smartplan...rtual-currency/15905

[Renegade]

After 30 days, even with a bunch of people in the DC IRC channel trying to mess up my experiment by hitting the miner page and parking their PCs there and mining BTC for me, I still had not managed to generate a full BTC. And Krishean has some powerful computers!

-app103 (March 27, 2013, 12:44 PM)

Mining is intensive. CPU mining is pretty much dead for BTC, though it is still used for LTC.

I've managed to mine about 0.065 BTC using 2 video cards. That was a couple weeks or so. Not a lot, but still a bit more than $5.00 USD, almost $6.00.

I blew some of it playing Satoshi Dice though. (It's a kind of fun little casino for BTC.)

[Renegade]

Money-laundering rules for virtual currency

With the increasing popularity of online cash, there’s growing concern that virtual currencies bought on the Internet are funding illicit activities.

Now, standard banking rules aimed at suspicious dollar transfers will be applied to Web money. Companies that issue or exchange online cash will be regulated like traditional money-order providers, such as Western Union. Wall Street Journal reports.

http://www.smartplan...rtual-currency/15905

-Tinman57 (March 27, 2013, 05:01 PM)

Yet another in a long, long string of hit pieces.

Baseball bats can be used to hurt people. Better outlaw them.

Cars can be used to crash into stores. Better outlaw them.

Salt has a lethal-50 dosage. Better regulate it more.

 

Cash is used to illegal activities. Better get rid of it and have only digital currency that can be tracked and traced. 

Regulation is just a bad, bad idea. No regulation is needed. There are already laws on the books to deal with "illegal activities". If they'd just use the laws that exist, but noooooo... that's too obvious. 

[app103]

After 30 days, even with a bunch of people in the DC IRC channel trying to mess up my experiment by hitting the miner page and parking their PCs there and mining BTC for me, I still had not managed to generate a full BTC. And Krishean has some powerful computers!

-app103 (March 27, 2013, 12:44 PM)

Mining is intensive. CPU mining is pretty much dead for BTC, though it is still used for LTC.

I've managed to mine about 0.065 BTC using 2 video cards. That was a couple weeks or so. Not a lot, but still a bit more than $5.00 USD, almost $6.00.

-Renegade (March 27, 2013, 07:47 PM)

Well, I managed to end up with 0.09773456 BTC after 30 days of using other people's CPUs and 0 video cards. Didn't have to use my own hardware or electricity. So, I guess its a bit less dead than you thought. I did consider getting around the Google issue by adding a link to the miner page as an alternative donation method for people without any cash to donate...let them mine BTC for me, voluntarily, rather than automatically (which google doesn't like).

May have come up with another way to get BTC without spending money or using my own hardware/electricity...work for it. Got an online friend in need of a VA but has no money to pay one. I told him to look into Bitcoins and if it sounds good to him, get set up and start mining. As soon as he has 1 BTC, we'll discuss how much of my time he can get for it. (I figure that may be awhile)

[Tuxman]

I accept Bitcoin donations for my projects but no one donates them. Well then.

[app103]

I accept Bitcoin donations for my projects but no one donates them. Well then.

-Tuxman (March 28, 2013, 05:06 AM)

Perhaps nobody that is interested in your projects has any Bitcoins to donate?

That was why I considered including an additional link for one to donate their CPU cycles to generate some for me, rather than only accepting actual Bitcoin donations. That way if you were interested in making a "I have no real money" donation, you could still donate something that you do have, even if you don't have any Bitcoins. 

[40hz]

I accept Bitcoin donations for my projects but no one donates them. Well then.

-Tuxman (March 28, 2013, 05:06 AM)

Perhaps nobody that is interested in your projects has any Bitcoins to donate?

That was why I considered including an additional link for one to donate their CPU cycles to generate some for me, rather than only accepting actual Bitcoin donations. That way if you were interested in making a "I have no real money" donation, you could still donate something that you do have, even if you don't have any Bitcoins. 

-app103 (March 28, 2013, 08:37 AM)

A quietly brilliant idea.  

[Tuxman]

According to my website statistics, my projects are quite famous indeed. I included a link to a Bitcoin generator, but that made no difference.

On a side note, I read a story about a guy today who paid 2 pizzas with Bitcoins in 2010. The Bitcoins would be worth about 750,000 $ in 2013. Well.

[f0dder]

But you know who are and will continue to really make out like bandits with this? The guys with the botnets, distributing malware with bitcoin miner software, getting unsuspecting users to generate BTC for them when their computers are idle.

-app103 (March 27, 2013, 12:03 PM)

Indeed - hence why I think the currency should be renamed "botcoin". The whole thing has always seemed extremely shady to me - like, the original author using a pseudonym, the guy who came to #doco and wanted *us* to write articles about it, et cetera. But I guess I wouldn't want to reveal my real name if I had conjured up a Get Rich From Botnets plan

On top of that, I'm pretty much with 40hz. Enjoy the bubble before it bursts.

[Renegade]

On top of that, I'm pretty much with 40hz. Enjoy the bubble before it bursts.

-f0dder (March 29, 2013, 02:19 PM)

I intend to!

What are some other bubbles? Tech in 2000. Housing in 2008. The Asian currency crisis in 1997.

Here's (a bit of a dated) article on 10 bubbles:

http://www.dailyfina...at-could-soon-burst/

It includes the USD.

The question is which bubble will burst first. The fiat monetary system? Or a crypto-currency that provides the possibility of anonymous transactions and the ability to skirt around heavy and burdensome taxes, and which also offers security against "haircuts" (a wonderfully Orwellian Newspeak term for "theft"), and that is outperforming every other currency on the market?

The problem here is that long term fundamentals always catch up to short term analysis in markets. Short term analysis relies on market behaviour, however, there are limits to what markets can do as reality steps in and "corrects" grossly distorted perceptions (i.e. bubbles) with a fury to rival a woman's scorn.

The questions to ask are how long the bubbles can grow before they burst, and do those time-frames fit your purposes?

Other questions to ask are about how fundamentals fit into your plans, and whether you are better off going with short term technical analysis of the markets.

Here, for bitcoin, the skepticism over it (calling it a bubble) is addressing how fundamentally it has no value. However, in some ways this is a bit of a double standard to apply these criteria to BTC but not fiat currencies, e.g. USD, AUD, CAN, GBP, EUR, KRW, etc.

So, if we apply the same standards to currencies that are issued with the stroke of a pen (or typing on a keyboard) to conjure funds out of thin air, well, what can we say about them? They have no backing. And no, a "future promise" isn't a backing. That's called debt, and it's not a backing.

We have a very bizarre system in place. Is it better to have all instruments of trade tightly controlled, taxed, and continually devalued, or to have free and open instruments of trade with no central authority?

BTC is no more of a sham than the USD, but there are many cases to show that it is less of a sham.

We'll see what happens. I've got my bets in place. I'd place more if I could.

[Renegade]

Ok, this is for the GAMERS out there.  

If you like playing games, this could be very fun for you!

And no, I don't mean Satoshi Dice! (I play that a tiny bit, but only like 1 spin every few days or so.)

Trading BTC for other currencies is very much like FOREX. But, it just seems a heck of a lot more fun! The volatility in BTC right now is radical, but still doable for anyone that applies themselves.

My last set of trades I opened a position (cash that is) as I watched the charts. I could see it topping out and that there would be an immediate correction, though I didn't see the correction being by very much.

I opened the position at $93.99 and it maxed at $94.00. There was a bit of volatility around there, and the market eventually came down to about $90.10, but I'd already put in an order to close out at $90.50.

I didn't get nauseous or dizzy, though it really does get your blood pumping! You can feel the excitement because it's not just any old video game that you're playing... You're playing with real money for real stakes, there is no reset button, and you only have 1 life.

So, yeah... A pretty darn exciting game to play!

And man... does it every feel good to nail a couple trades like that! Especially when you shave the high & low so darn close like that.  

So, for anyone looking for an absolutely THRILLING new game to play, a bitcoin exchange is really a fantastic ride!

             

[Renegade]

Just had a BSOD from a hot CPU! Guess I need to quit mining until it cools down a bit. (Mining LTC with CPU.)

For anyone interested, I've been watching support and resistance and they're still creeping up, slowly but surely. There is a new support at $94. Spreads are very thin as well at $94.57 and $94.64 - less than a dime there. The interesting part will come shortly when the North American east coast wakes up.

[40hz]

For anybody still following this thread, there's an article over at Business Insider that has a copy of an interesting presentation on what Bitcoin is (Surprise!!! - it's a protocol.) and how it works.

It probably won't answer every question you may have. And it glosses just a little too quickly over some important economic concepts IMO. (Note: the presentation was put together by a programmer so I guess that's to be expected) But it's still very informative. And also quite funny in several places  

Well worth the look. Check it out here.