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8476

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 10:17 PM »

But it doesn't *install* the dll.

-wraith808 (March 31, 2011, 08:55 PM)

What is the purpose of an installer? I thought the purpose was to install software. And software consists of many types of files, not just .exe executables.

If one of my applications comes with xml and wav files, I am not going to argue that they are not "installed" with my application...they are.

The big issue with the OC .dll being installed along with open source software is that it is compiled code in which the source is not available.

-app103 (March 31, 2011, 09:20 PM)

But the dll isn't *left* on your machine.  It is to facilitate the installation.  That's the same as saying that NSIS is installed on your machine just because certain supporting dlls have to be extracted to be loaded into memory.  That is *not* installation.  It assists in installation of the requested software.

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General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 08:55 PM »

Up until now, there has been pretty much universal agreement that anything which gets installed on your PC without giving notice and asking your permission is unacceptable.

...

And I think the reason for that is very simple: most people wouldn't install OC if they knew about it.

-40hz (March 31, 2011, 06:25 PM)

But that's the thing -- It doesn't get installed! It runs, but it isn't installed.


When most people go to install software, they aren't agreeing to a lot of things, but things are genuinely changed on their system that they have NOT asked for. This is the normal way of doing things and nobody would call it malicious. For example, an installer adds registry keys and puts a DLL in the system32 folder, creates a ProgramData entry, another local/roaming directory structure, checks if certain other software is installed, if not installs it or upgrades it, etc. etc. That's normal. But OpenCandy isn't doing all that stuff. It runs then it's done.

-Renegade (March 31, 2011, 06:36 PM)

This! If it were installing anything, I'd totally agree.  But it's not!

They are also peddling their stuff to open source developers, to include a closed source .dll on machines that install the open source software. When I install open source software, I expect to be able to have access to the source, all of it, for everything it installs on my machine. If the source for the OC dll is not included, it has no business being put on my machine during the install of a piece of open source software.

-app103 (March 31, 2011, 07:39 PM)

But it doesn't *install* the dll... when you get an installer for OSS software, is it required to give you the source to the installer?  I don't think so, though I could be wrong?  And if it's not, there's no reason to have to give the source to the OC dll.

But that's the thing -- It doesn't get installed! It runs, but it isn't installed.

-Renegade (March 31, 2011, 06:36 PM)

Sorry. I'm a bit color blind in that end of the spectrum. 

Regardless of whether it copies itself onto the hard drive, or loads itself into RAM before it runs, it's still installed on your system. The mechanism employed for the IPL* (initial program load) is a technical detail, not a functional difference.

-40hz (March 31, 2011, 08:50 PM)

Yes, indeed it is a functional difference.  Several things run on your machine without being installed - classic asp and javascript are two good examples- they run on the client in the browser.  Does that mean that every bit of JS or VBscript has to be vetted?

8478

Living Room / Re: A Parrot Riding a Car's Windshield Wipers

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 08:48 PM »

^ This!  WIN!

8479

Living Room / Re: A Parrot Riding a Car's Windshield Wipers

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 06:30 PM »

i can't disagree with anything nudone says -- which is why i started off my comment saying that i really don't know if the parrot was scared.  hey he's a bird it's possible he loved it.  but it's hard to know.

my comment was focused on the fact that the owner doesn't seem particularly interested in whether the bird is terrified or not, which is the red flag for me.

if he was sitting there saying: "i love my bird and i'm convinced he loves the ride" -- i wouldn't have a complaint.

-mouser (March 31, 2011, 03:22 AM)

He does say that since the birds wings have been clipped and won't be able to feel the wind like it should if it was able to fly.  He also mentions the parrot's happiness a few times... so I think he does sort of address it...

8480

Living Room / Re: The March 2011 6th Anniversary Fundraiser Has Begun! Cheer for Victory Thread

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 06:22 PM »

@ $14,111 now,
I was thinking a good number to finish up on - but forgot it's got another 6 hours or so to go 'over there' before the day is done

-tomos (March 31, 2011, 04:44 PM)

I still haven't donated yet... waiting 'til the end like I always do on fundraisers

(In at 11:22PM local time... and we're now well over 14k!)

8481

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 03:53 PM »

So, The torches and pitchfork wielding villagers are incensed by the frankin-monsters insistence on playing possum?

-Stoic Joker (March 31, 2011, 03:47 PM)

 That's one way to put it...

Just a note- I really despise adware, spyware, and those that distribute it.  But like a lot of other pejoratives, I think it's very likely that the effectiveness of labeling something as malware will be diluted if it's applied indiscriminately.

8482

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 03:29 PM »

I've even seen during the worst of their growing pains that severe detractors have said that the level of knowledge of what you've done seems to be absent.

-wraith808 (March 31, 2011, 01:54 PM)

You completely lost me on that one. Could you maybe rephrase it? 

-40hz (March 31, 2011, 03:13 PM)

If it was tracking your actions, then subsequent actions would be based on that information.  But several detractors have admitted that it doesn't seem to utilize or even *have* that knowledge, just based on observation.  They might actually have it and not be using it- but that wouldn't seem to make sense either.

8483

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 01:54 PM »

So opt out of *what* is my question that still remains unanswered?

-wraith808 (March 31, 2011, 12:21 PM)

3rd party tracking.

-app103 (March 31, 2011, 01:29 PM)

*You* aren't being tracked though.  From what I've seen (and what Renegade has shown from his experiences) it's no more intrusive than a counter on a page.  I've even seen during the worst of their growing pains that severe detractors have said that the level of knowledge of what you've done seems to be absent.

8484

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 12:21 PM »

I said more then I planned to in that post...so maybe I didn't communicate well.

Opt out of *what*?

Exactly, you can't, OC is included.

-cmpm (March 31, 2011, 11:47 AM)

But what do you mean?  Opt out of using the installer extensions?  So perhaps you opt out of using Installshield because you don't like them.  Or wise.  Or INNO or NSIS?  It's an extension that's not installed on your machine.  You can code your own extension that sends the *exact* same information.

So opt out of *what* is my question that still remains unanswered?

8485

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 11:39 AM »

The difference is that there is no opt out of OC when installing.

-cmpm (March 31, 2011, 11:26 AM)

Opt out of *what*?  OpenCandy is more akin to a service than an application.  It doesn't install anything that's not required to have a clean uninstall, nor does it do anything other than during installation if you don't opt-in.  If you go to a site on the internet and it displays a page before you can access the site that has an ad that you choose not to install and even choose not to allow to show by the use of adblockers, it can *still* get information akin to the stated OC information, i.e. that you came to the page, whether you click through to an ad, and whether you click through to the main site.  Is anyone asking pages that do this to disclose that they're keeping track of who lands on the page?  And this is not a hypothetical situation; I know of a few popular sites that I visit that do this exact same thing.

8486

Living Room / Re: The "Cloud" Goes Up in Smoke

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 11:32 AM »

This story will become increasingly familiar as the new internet boomlets burst. First and last, it's about making money, not about providing service. The quaint idea of working capital is never given a thought.

-zridling (March 31, 2011, 10:28 AM)

And this is why I can't embrace storage in the cloud. It's not reliable.

-app103 (March 31, 2011, 10:34 AM)

It's just like everything else though in regards to reliability; you get what you pay for.  I have storage in the cloud on Amazon's servers and my own, and I pay for the storage, so I demand a higher level of service and reliability, and I get it.  What I'm more wary of is quote-unquote free services.

8487

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 31, 2011, 10:44 AM »

What is commendable, however, is that they clearly call attention to the fact they are using it right on the download page. Which is more than most publishers are doing. And which is all that 90% of the people who are objecting to OC are asking for: Being told - up front - that it is going to be installed.

Of course, providing the user with notification and an easily selectable option to not have it load at all when you run the installer would be nice...but the makers of OC seem to be quietly adamant that that is not going to happen.

-40hz (March 31, 2011, 02:31 AM)

Nothing is being installed though, unless you install the application in question, right?  And why should that be different than everything else?  It seems to me that they're being held to a different/higher standard based on what people assume that OC is/does...

8488

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 30, 2011, 02:49 PM »

Looking at the signatures and comparing it to renegade's shot, I'd surmise (though might be wrong) that it seems like the first one is to get offers, and the second one is to track # of installs of the product.  It gives some interesting heuristics on the client page, and those would require this sort of non-identifying information.

Thinking about it more, IMO the problem arises when identifying or intrusive information is culled and sent.  However, there seems to be a problem on the other (AV) side also- I truly doubt that they are investigating the content of these transmissions.  So they give a negative message based on less than full facts- security by FUD?

8489

Site/Forum Features / Re: Suggestion: Kickstarter Featurer

« Last post by wraith808 on March 30, 2011, 02:43 PM »

^ I was just about to suggest that same outlet for culling interesting projects - the newsletter.  There's also http://www.indiegogo.com/.  Maybe both could be sources of interesting projects.  Are we looking towards software projects only, or any projects?

I'd be willing to help if RGDot wants to split the responsibilities... seems like an interesting idea.

8490

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 30, 2011, 01:17 PM »

For what it's worth, Nod32 blocked 2 internet connections to OpenCandy when installing the latest Photo Resizer with OC.
Stopping the install of OCSetupHlp.dll and any other programs being offered.

Photo Resizer did install even with nod blocking the connection to OC.

Just for your info...

-cmpm (March 29, 2011, 07:21 PM)

Thanks for that.

This is really a problem. AV vendors should be focusing on developing technologies that prevent the real bad guys and not this kind of silliness.

You'd think that it would be easy to make a dime... Literally.

-Renegade (March 30, 2011, 11:09 AM)

(Playing both sides of the fence )

The problem arises in determining who the bad guys are.  It doesn't seem as if OC is bad, but a lot of the bad guys didn't seem so in the beginning either.  Communication is communication, and some people are paranoid about *anything* communicating that they don't know about.

But then again, if this is to meter impressions and click through, then does that act of metering have to be explicitly OK'd?  And if so, does that break the system?  Maybe on the OC disclaimer, they should state that it connects to the internet to track views- but then again, are we to the point where that is necessary?

8491

Official Announcements / Re: March 2011 DonationCoder.com Fundraiser Celebration -- Pledges?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 30, 2011, 08:59 AM »

^ That's actually a very good idea, IMO.  I know people have a lot against Adwords, but what about another advertising engine?  I saw one that was highly recommended for transparency and the general awareness of the company- though of course I can't find it now.  I think it was discussed here before...

UPDATE: Project Wonderful is what I was referring to - http://www.projectwonderful.com.  I can't currently get to it, though... not sure if my ABP is being too zealous or not.

It's discussed here, and on App's blog post here.

8492

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 30, 2011, 08:53 AM »

Well, no offers of other software came up and Photo Resizer installed and works.
Searching for opencandy or OCSetupHlp.dll came up with no results.

-cmpm (March 29, 2011, 07:40 PM)

Not for offers of other software.  From looking at the agreement, they have the same concept as other advertisers, i.e. impressions and click through.  I wasn't saying that it was to get more offers, but to track impressions.  Did it say what the request was?  That (other than asking) would seem to be the way to figure out what it was trying to do...

8493

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 29, 2011, 07:26 PM »

For what it's worth, Nod32 blocked 2 internet connections to OpenCandy when installing the latest Photo Resizer with OC.
Stopping the install of OCSetupHlp.dll and any other programs being offered.

Photo Resizer did install even with nod blocking the connection to OC.

Just for your info...

-cmpm (March 29, 2011, 07:21 PM)

Not sure, but I'd think that's probably for metrics and payment...

8494

General Software Discussion / Re: What the hell is OpenCandy?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 29, 2011, 06:40 AM »

On the contrary, I'd think with the changing landscape, it would have to evolve.  There will always be attempts to game the system, let alone defects and situations that aren't caught in development, so you'd have to be able to be agile for these situations.  All companies do it; some are less honest than others about the practice...

8495

DC Website Help and Extras / Re: Delete as well as Modify Button for own post?

« Last post by wraith808 on March 29, 2011, 06:38 AM »

I understand why the removal of the delete was implemented, but would it be possible to do like some other forums and let you delete for either (1) a set amount of time after posting or (2) until someone replies?

Just a thought...

8496

Announce Your Software/Service/Product / Re: Pre-launch of Super Simple

« Last post by wraith808 on March 25, 2011, 10:36 PM »

Nice site!  Very well done! 

The transparency is nice also!

8497

Found Deals and Discounts / Re: O'Reilly Japan Relief eBook Sale - 2011-03-22

« Last post by wraith808 on March 23, 2011, 12:57 PM »

^ Wow, thanks!  I thought from the phrasing it was only for the one day...

8498

Living Room / Re: Android tablets to rival iPad

« Last post by wraith808 on March 23, 2011, 12:54 PM »

My biggest quibble is with battery runtimes. I'd consider getting a tablet if they could just provide a battery that would last for a 'standard' workday (i.e. 8hrs under normal use) without needing to be plugged back in.
 

-40hz (March 23, 2011, 09:16 AM)

Today is the third full workday that I've been using* mine, and I haven't plugged it in yet.  And my battery is at 42%.

*Using includes books (writing a presentation), remote desktop, taking notes, calendar, e-mail, and browsing...

8499

Living Room / Re: Android tablets to rival iPad

« Last post by wraith808 on March 23, 2011, 10:41 AM »

^ Well, the thing is, while this isn't my gaming machine, I do want decent graphic performance (which the 550 ti gives me) in case my gaming rig goes down.  And you can't get a laptop with discrete graphics that don't suck without spending more than $800. (I wanted to set $500 for my limit, but I decided to add the extra $300 and skip lunch a few days... )

8500

Living Room / Re: App Store, Appstore, Tomato, Tomato, Potato, Potato

« Last post by wraith808 on March 22, 2011, 10:57 AM »

^ To make you burn even more, consider this... Amazon will probably settle with Apple, thereby creating precedent...