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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 27, 2019, 01:59 PM »

Interesting discussion... I've responded about zettelkasten in IanB's discussion on OneNote,

-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)

I'll check them out. Though it is a very long discussion.

Random thoughts, I know, but hopefully something will prove stimulating!

-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)

Certainly stimulating. Every contribution like this helps shape my ideas. And random is good!

I've "started" a zettel several times now, with tree-based information managers, with markdown textfiles, and now with Dokuwiki.

-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)

So what made you stop? And then restart?

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 27, 2019, 01:50 PM »

Instead, use meaningful relationships (links with explanations). Some like to call it "tight" vs "loose" linking (http://takingnotenow...sus-tight-links.html). With a zettel, you're trying to link things tightly, not just throw things into your garage randomly.

-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)

I read the posts, but I'm not convinced. Some things clearly have direct links. But other links ought to be looser or even tentative. I haven't read enough about zettel to know how it ought to work - but tight links won't lead to serendipitous discoveries. And in some ways I don't care. I will do the reading to see if there's anything more there that's useful and, if not, I'll work out what's useful myself. And I will use tags very flexibly if I use them: some may indicate individuals with a common background, some may be because I think I might at some point write a piece on X or Y.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 27, 2019, 01:00 PM »

Back a few posts there was some discussion about ideas vs facts. Don't know if you've read the post on the Collector's Fallacy: https://zettelkasten.../collectors-fallacy/  I find this very true and something I fight against continually.

-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)

I hadn't. I agree with the comment about collecting books and papers, but believe that the premise of the post is fundamentally misconceived. There's too much focus on facts.

Taking notes thoroughly means you can rely on your notes alone and rarely need to look up a detail in the original text.

I rarely consult secondary sources again. If I have to do so, it means that I did not do the job right the first time.
–MK, of “Taking Note Now”

The problem here is the idea that there is a virtue to extracting information from a source and storing that information as a note. There may be a gain if it becomes more accessible, but it's a lot of effort simply to copy facts that are possessed already.

If we read without taking notes, our knowledge increases for a short time only. Once we forget what we knew, having read the text becomes worthless. You can bet that you’ll forget about the text’s information one day. It’s guaranteed. Thus, reading without taking notes is just a waste of time in the long run. It’s as if reading never happened.

This is also wrong. It assumes that the only value is in transferring facts to the brain or keeping them close in an accessible form. That's part of the way that computers work, but it's not the way the human mind works. If we read something that has a meaning to us on some level, we may or may not be able to recall the facts involved in the future. But we don't simply store facts. We have models about the way the world works. Some may be precise and others very fuzzy. We may know what our models are but more likely we don't. When we read something, whether we remember the details of any facts or not, that reading will have produced a shift in the network of probabilities in the relevant model. Even if it is only to strengthen some of them.

It is so important to collect why the fact was interesting.... and try to relate it to other things. A jumble of other people's text bits is meaningless to me. A file system of my own thoughts continues to show it's power, again and again.

-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)

Exactly. And if we do that, me may or may not need to transcribe the facts. A link should usually be sufficient.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 27, 2019, 06:14 AM »

wrt the x..n system. I'm reading the Ahrens book at the moment (How to Take Smart Notes); one place ought to be easier than a myriad of webpages. Very concentrated on academic research and writing papers or books. I can understand that - it's what Luhmann did and it's the motivation for a lot of people interested in the system. But Luhmann went into an office and did his academic stuff - I do many things (and quite a lot of quick switching) and I can't see why the system would not work for anything that requires thinking. Creative writing, building a garage, organising holidays. One input system is so much easier than working out where everything should go.

I'll use the system as I read. I've already learned that I need to develop kindle skills and techniques.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 27, 2019, 05:58 AM »

What I've so far established is that the the short note system works very well (ie fast and easy). Adding the date&time (down to seconds) is also quick and easy - so that's the unique name need dealt with.

No idea about anything after that yet, but I know I will stick to the initial note bit.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 27, 2019, 05:45 AM »

Thanks.

Glancing at this "Big German Word" ...

- It seems your mind needs some level of innate talent to make it work, or it could collapse entirely! I don't think you can both be "surprised at what's in your notes" and at the same time have a comprehensive command of the material.

-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)

Absence of command seems to be a requirement of the system with the aim of achieving serendipity.
And if you made a note 15 years ago, on an apparently different topic, you might easily have forgotten it.

- More fun things to do with file reader output : if you put a special character (not above the number key but like zz), after the "regular" part of the file name and before all your tag-y things, then you can import that directory output into Excel, and chop it up into sections and then your notes can reference the fragment of the file name.

- In reverse, if you want to share stuff on the web, and you added new tags to your file names, because now it references Cher Banb Bang for "I was Five" and Harlan Ellison's story Jefty is Five, re-run the directory reader, then (I did one in Excel) it concatenates back the cels, slaps some shell code on either side to make it a legible web page, and off you go, and your text files drove the outbound web copy.

-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)

Interesting idea

maybe You just write periodic summaries of what you were up to, and then you might get clever recalling what phase of your life it was in. There's a risk, it seems to me, of system decay.

-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)

I'm expecting that writing new notes that contain reflections on the current ideas will be part of the system

- DonationCoder! That's us! If you find you need some really strange processing of text files, it might NOT exist! So commission it!

-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)

And that is a good idea!

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 26, 2019, 04:47 PM »

Isn't there a problem with filename tags in that links are broken every time you add or remove a tag?

-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 05:54 PM)

We can then in other plaintext files reliably "quasi link" to the image with the short string 20191022_181212.png .

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 06:46 PM)

Having thought on it, I think that the ability to fast search for the unique string within the name obviates both the need for direct linking and having the tags outside the name. I hadn't thought of that.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 07:22 PM »

I suspect it is more appealing to someone who already uses code editors and writes scripts a lot anyway. But no harm in giving it a look, you might find some part of it that is a fit for you.

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 06:56 PM)

I'll certainly look them all out. These are solutions, and I will need solutions. I think tagging is a tough one. I'm sure I can manage the greps, and I'm not sure there's an alternative approach. And it's about time I had a closer look at AHK. The quasi hyperlink is a solution to a problem I was aware would need to be tackled.

For me it's all about workflow. My understanding of the zettelkasten process produces high easy output that will allow me to keep my eye on the ball all the time (and should be effective whether it is really zettelkasten or not). That will mean quickly producing and saving new documents. I think everything else can be done later as a batch process, but, if not, it has to be something I can do without thought because otherwise the workflow gain has gone.

Once I have lots of them (and there will be lots because each will be relatively small), search will be important. I have no idea how that will go. I'll probably want the search program to show me what's in the file, so I can decide if I want it without having to open it. And I'll still need speed.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:56 PM »

Thanks.
Lots of food for thought there.
I've no idea at this point about how much I will use tagging, and in what circumstances. The important thing, if I do, is a quick and easy workflow.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:44 PM »

Here are some tools I find very useful for storing and retrieving information in plaintext files. I suppose most are very well known to many DC members reading this thread already, but anyway...

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

Thanks for these and the methodologies.

-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 05:51 PM)

I am really very grateful for the list and explanations of best usage. It's the details of the best programs and usage tips that I have no idea about at all.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:39 PM »

Initial system plan (file based & text, not necessarily zettelkasten).

Two top level folders – General and Local. Identically named subfolders.
General to be available to other devices through Dropbox or equivalent. Local not.

Next level:
Thoughts (as in zettel, because I can see that it’s a good idea)
Sources  (including facts I record or material I devise myself)
Writing (any output using material in the first two). To include an In Progress folder (I’d intend to use this to temporarily copy files I’m using, and anything used to help organizse my thoughts.
Temp (for new documents that may still need tagging/renaming/allocating).

Until I read more, I won’t know what type of linking I believe to be important in zettelkasten, should I go in that direction.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:20 PM »

- VS Code or some other general purpose code editor.
For powerful plaintext viewing, editing and formatting. Also for writing Markdown with preview.
The interface is more complex than for some standalone Markdown editors. But on the plus side code editors are power tools for transforming and navigating plaintext in a lot of ways that tend to come in handy sooner or later.
https://code.visualstudio.com/

Like so: An AutoHotkey hotkey takes the current selection in the active VS Code window

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

I'm afraid that I'm likely to resist using VS Code or any other code editor as much as I possibly can. The look and feel (and features) of the programs I write in is critical to creativity and productivity  (and I have to be able to set them up to avoid eye strain). I like Atlantis. I quite like Jarte. I like WriteMonkey 3 (although it has occasionally hogged resources).

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:11 PM »

You can speed up 1-4 with AutoHotkey, of course

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

okay, I accept the case for AHK is overwhelming 

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:08 PM »

The neat thing with unique filenames is that you can use them as "quasi hyperlinks" in plaintext. Like so: An AutoHotkey hotkey takes the current selection in the active VS Code window (or Notepad or any other plaintext editor/viewer you want), uses Everything under the hood to find the one unique matching full filepath, and then acts on it (open/run the file, open its folder in Explorer, ...). For example a file you name "food korean 191025.txt" will likely remain unique and so can be used as a short and quick quasi hyperlink.

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

I assume this would actually work with rtf or even docx files too?

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:04 PM »

4. when needed tag filenames/foldernames with timestamps (YYMMDD at minimum or YYYYMMDDhhmmss) to make them more unique.

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

Yes, I intend to do this.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 06:02 PM »

3. organize files at least roughly into (sub)folders based on topic, context or life domain. Put tags in foldernames.

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

I'm not likely to do this. I want to keep folder structures as simple as possible.
Doing this would slow down the active work. I'm hoping that Searching will remove the need.
I would expect to use temporary project folders and will copy useful files into those. Then delete them once it's complete.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 05:57 PM »

2. make .txt plaintext "companion files" with tags in filename and notes inside next to non-plaintext files.

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

So, same name as companion except .txt ?

Would this be a way of tagging the companion?

Any specific purpose for the notes?

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 05:54 PM »

1. put tags in the filenames of plaintext files

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

Isn't there a problem with filename tags in that links are broken every time you add or remove a tag?

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 05:51 PM »

Here are some tools I find very useful for storing and retrieving information in plaintext files. I suppose most are very well known to many DC members reading this thread already, but anyway...

-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)

Thanks for these and the methodologies. I'm aware of most of the programs; use Everything and have always been a bit scared of the learning required for AHK. Used FARR once, but mostly prefer using the mouse; maybe I should look at it again.

I don't want to be convinced to use plaintext.  It feels a further bump down the slope from Markdown.  I'm just a humble writer & researcher (among other things admittedly) not a coder.  I do appreciate that I may need to become familiar with some of these programs (or equivalents), but will grumble every step of the way. And will avoid anything I can.

I'll certainly try those grep programs. And I've always known that AHK would be good for me.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 25, 2019, 03:47 PM »

It's certainly very different than the way i currently approach notetaking now, which is to collect the actual information and store it, like an archivist.
Basically, when I use onenote, im not really using a system or method of any kind.  I am just collecting notes into the interface presented to me by onenote.  It may not even be very "efficient" or terribly productive.  But its there when i need it.

-superboyac (October 25, 2019, 01:23 PM)

Collecting information can be important. Is important.
But that's not what the zettel themselves are. Unless I have read it all wrong.

I know it is common now to advise students to listen to lectures and think about what is being said rather than writing down facts. That's always what I did, so it makes sense to me.
I can see why collecting thoughts might work as a productive system. It encourages reflection. Anything that will be written, developed or otherwise used is most like to use thoughts backed by information rather than the reverse. The information is still collected, but its no longer doing the driving.

I can see that his system meant that he collected his thoughts when he was reading in a format that made future thinking and use easier. When he was working things out, he played with his cards, making new ones when he had new thoughts. And when he came to write something up, he just went through the selected cards and wrote them out. Simples.

But that's just my conceptualisation for now. It might be wrong. (Though I think it is a good working system for nearly anything irrespective.)

PS When I collected prints of academic papers in pre-computer (and post tbh) days, I gave them all a number and put them in a box file with a number; still have shelves and shelves of them. I had an index that told me where things were. Not entirely dissimilar and a reaction to available technologies. But no record of my thoughts and no card index: I can see that would have been better had I ever the time to have done it.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 24, 2019, 06:37 PM »

As IainB says in his onenote threads, the problem with the zettl is that it doesnt include images, videos, etc.  It's centered around text.  And his method of using onenote to me is much nicer/easier/better for software than zettel would be.

-superboyac (October 24, 2019, 06:09 PM)

The system does include images, videos and anything else that's used. But they are resources that the cards link to. So you could have film that you were analysing. you would do a card for each thought about the film and put in a link to the film presumably noting the point in the film you were referring to (assuming it one a single point). You have your card index and you have your resources. Not the same thing.

And if your thought was visual, then you could draw it on a card.
The system was designed by an academic for his academic work so most of the content is naturally text. But wouldn't have to be that way for someone else.

I'm sure you could do the system on OneNote. But I very much doubt it would be as effective as the original, even if it were Luhmann himself doing it.

Software naturally shapes and restricts the thoughts that come when using it. The more feature full the software is, the more the thinking is moulded into the shape of the program.

I believe that this is the problem I see with much of the discussion of the system. They see the wooden box, they see the cards with unique numbers, they notice that the numbering system continually forks, they notice that cards can contain references to other cards, they notice that they can contain references to source materials - and the discussions I've seen imply they believe that this is the system.
It can't be the system. It's just a tool. The interesting bit, assuming there is one, is how the tool was used and what made it better than other possible tools. Much of that will have been in Luhmann's head. He did write a bit about the system. Presumably he talked about it. There might be other clues in that, though I doubt he was able to describe the intricacies of the relationship between his thinking and writing and the tool he had developed over thirty years. Each card is for a thought, not information - information is external in the sources.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 24, 2019, 06:15 PM »

I read a comprehensive take down of the value of the Zkn3 program recently. Didn't record where. I'll see if I can find it.

-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 05:03 PM)

Probably this one
But this apparently competing website recommends it as part of their system

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 24, 2019, 05:03 PM »

I've been reading about the zettelkasten method here last couple of days.  I like it.  I'd be interested in software that can do this.  Sounds like a wiki of some sort.

-superboyac (October 24, 2019, 11:39 AM)

I'm looking at the zettelkasten software out there:
ConnectedText, i remember trying this years ago, but was still in the traditional notetaker mindset.  I'll give it another shot.  Looks interesting
Zkn3, seems more zettelkasten specific.  would give it a try.  i suspect connectedtext is more polished and easier to use.

-superboyac (October 24, 2019, 11:56 AM)

I read a comprehensive take down of the value of the Zkn3 program recently. Didn't record where. I'll see if I can find it.
I'd already decided that most of these recommended programs and systems were too rigid and am unconvinced they reflect any advantages of a zettelkasten method. In theory, I think many programs can work, and do appreciate the apparent similarity to wikis.

I need to do more comprehensive reading and thinking, but my view of zettelkasten is that it is a workflow with a process that aids remembering and thinking. Index cards are incredibly flexible.

I am not convinced that the descriptions I have seen reflect the original method in use. I'm concerned by the use of cod psychology ('this is the way the brain works') as a justification. I recognise a number of key concepts:

• Atomicity. One thing, free standing. The positional links go up, not down as in a wiki; once they are placed, you can go down. When a card is placed, it is into a sequence of equal cards, again unlike a wiki. It should be possible to replicate a card system with a wiki, but I believe that the thinking in the doing of it from scratch would be different with each method and that the results would also therefore be different in practice.
• Linking. I appreciate the types of links: direct (card-to-card), positional. Also that cards can be removed and mixed and used with a group of other cards and then replaced exactly where they came from. I'm not sure of the value of the positional links because I'm not sure how he actually used them once he'd got it all done. Presumably he wrote a new card every time he had a thought about another card or set of cards and that card would then contain direct links.

As I say, I don't know much and need to do a lot of reading. Then I might have some useful thoughts, an implementation method, and an opinion on whether zettelkasten is more than a pound of sausages. But my lack of knowledge doesn't stop me thinking that the main commentators have got aspects of it badly wrong. And that thinking about software programs takes you down a garden path into a walled garden whereas Luhmann was wandering in the wilderness, making notes and seeing new things.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 24, 2019, 03:57 PM »

I remain not even slightly persuaded of the need to go full Markdown though.

-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 04:50 AM)

It really depends on your usecase.  I don't use strictly markdown- I use plaintext when I need to, and even todotxt.

-wraith808 (October 24, 2019, 09:53 AM)

I can see that.
I feel as if I might have stumbled on to a very slippery slope and am gathering speed, with Markdown the next bump in the road, and no clear idea of an end zone.

In practice, at this point, everything will depend on the speed and effectiveness of the search app. Too slow or clumsy and there's more lost than gained.

I've realised that I might make extra efficiencies. Not having stuff spread across a number of database programs and not easily accessing all documents in the file system because I've lost the name. I could find them with Archivarius or other programs, but the waiting time means it has never been worth it. I could consolidate on one database program, but then all eggs are in one basket and each program has specific advantages that I have tried to leverage.

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General Software Discussion / Re: I'm thinking of going primitive

« Last post by Dormouse on October 24, 2019, 04:50 AM »

I have done something for a while and I think app mentioned it here recently too. Obviously not exactly what you are looking for but comes closer than you might think. A local WordPress installation.

-rgdot (October 23, 2019, 09:21 PM)

Did that once. Has its plus points.

The main idea is being independent of any particular software and therefore having a system that is fairly immune to software change/collapse, so Wordpress doesn't do that. I need it on the web too as I want to be able to access most info from anywhere. I think I'll keep Wordpress for websites.

Had to rescue information from a borked (hacked) installation once too. Doable, but wasn't quick to put it back together again.

I remain not even slightly persuaded of the need to go full Markdown though.