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3001

Living Room / Re: Manning Verdict in: guilty on all counts but one

« Last post by Renegade on July 31, 2013, 06:24 AM »

He really should have been tried here in Australia. Lots of kangaroos to help set the atmosphere better.

-Renegade (July 30, 2013, 10:48 PM)

Does that mean you haven't eaten them all?

-4wd (July 31, 2013, 01:52 AM)

I was working really hard on it, but man... kangaroo is worse than 50 espressos - you get really jumpy! NOM NOM NOM~!

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Living Room / Re: Manning Verdict in: guilty on all counts but one

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 10:48 PM »

That was a point which became ludicrously untenable for the prosecutors to make stick - for obvious reasons.

-40hz (July 30, 2013, 01:26 PM)

Which has always stopped them in the past!

He really should have been tried here in Australia. Lots of kangaroos to help set the atmosphere better.

3003

Living Room / Re: Worth Reading: Trevor Pott's editorial on NSA PRISM and its real ramifications

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 10:09 PM »

More OT @wraith

Your last statements bring to the fore anything that doesn't have to do with the immediate.

I don't have the resources, so I ask someone for them.  If they aren't totally altruistic, the lack of the way to enforce the contract (as that would be aggression) comes into question.

I guess it could work like pure barter, but that's not always going to get you through the spots when what you're producing is either not in season, or not in demand.  How do you enforce such things?

-wraith808 (July 30, 2013, 12:56 PM)

This trips up a lot of people. But it's been discussed numerous times.

The first thing to remember is that you can ALWAYS use force for defense. That includes against fraud, etc. So you're not held helpless there.

For barter, that just doesn't matter. There's nothing stopping having a monetary system that isn't government issued. e.g. Bitcoin, litecoin, gold, silver, Canadian Tire money, etc. So don't bother with barter at all - it's antiquated and we have better ways to do things. For things like international trade, you simply buy bitcoin or gold from someone locally with your Canadian Tire money then use bitcoin/gold/whatever. All those problems are solved. Also, with non-central bank currency/money/instruments, you don't have the kind of manipulation that we have now. Kiss the manufactured boom/bust cycles good-bye! 

For enforcement, there is nothing to stop having private services to replace our current judicial and law enforcement. Currently this is happening in Detroit with private companies replacing the police.

I don't really want to get into that all that deep as it really really goes way way OT, but there are lots of resources out there that describe how it can work.

It all seems quite counter-intuitive at first, but if you look into it, it's easy to see that it is a better system.

I know that someone will start in on corruption or conflicts of interest, but when you look a bit deeper, it's easier to see how it is against the interest of a security company to be corrupt. Once that gets out, people would flock to another company. i.e. It's similar to how you have self-policing systems on the Internet.

I've really glossed over things very quickly there. Here's one resource that might help:

That is Larken Rose's YouTube channel. He's an ardent Anarchist and really makes a lot of sense. He speaks very plainly and simply.

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Living Room / Re: Worth Reading: Trevor Pott's editorial on NSA PRISM and its real ramifications

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 11:44 AM »

Basement? Nah. It's still all fun & games. Nobody is getting vehement about anything. Besides, it's more fun with 40hz in the discussion.

More OT fun!

^Anarchy is great in theory. Too bad it doesn't work in practice for much the same reason communism didn't. It requires a large number of a certain type of high-minded individual that we just don't have.

If you had a world full of that sort of person you wouldn't need anything.

But if you had a world full of unicorns, I'm guessing everything would be just as cool - and just as likely.

I'm not waiting up nights. We can only work with what we've got.

-40hz (July 30, 2013, 09:22 AM)

We can only work with what we've got?  Because it's working soooo well!

That's like introducing your phone to the wonders of Mr. Hammer. Repetitively. Then insisting on making a phone call with it, after all, you "work with what you've got". What we've got ain't working by any stretch of the imagination. What works right now works DESPITE what we've got.

Doesn't that presume that those ideologies include expansion as a tenet (which none of them necessarily do)

As you said, Anarchism only talks about inflicting on the non-willing. So, and I quote, "Anarchism doesn't preclude people from associating under some set of ideologies, e.g. anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism, etc. The only thing it precludes is the initiation of force/violence."

If a group of people got together an formed a democracy, it would be a tyranny of the masses, sure.  But on the masses that want the tyranny.  As long as it remains in the borders and by collusion, then it does work.  And they would have the defensive ability to expel anyone that didn't want to abide by that rule, correct?

-wraith808 (July 30, 2013, 11:10 AM)

Anarchism gives you the freedom to associate however you choose. I'll skip all the stuff about selling yourself into slavery and that kind of silliness, but suffice it to say that it's a contradiction and just insane. So, back to free associations with people...

So, for "the masses that want the tyranny", it only makes sense to the point that anyone can opt-out. However, that brings up how people contract with each other. In what you've described, it's impossible to have "anarcho-democracy" (I'll just call it that) and have people own land. It would be very much like the feudal system of land ownership that we have now. i.e. Fee simple and not allodial titles. If people owned land, they could opt-out of the system very easily and stay there. But, that's getting into some details.

But yes - in Anarchy people are free to contract with others. If the terms of the contract allowed for expulsion from the community, then so be it.

But (in an Anarchist non-system) people cannot simply band together to force others into a contract. e.g. If there are 100 people in an area, 80 of them don't get to decide to have a Democracy and force the others into it, then decide to expel them if they don't want a Demonocracy. That's an initiation of force/violence/fraud.

The systems we have now are not free. You have guys with guns ready to force you to comply with the arbitrary "laws" that are pulled out of the asses of asses.

I think a decent summary of Anarchism is "leave me alone and don't tell me what to do". Well, as a negative definition anyways, which is a good contrast to what we have now.

*IF* we had Anarchy, we sure as heck wouldn't have the surveillance state nonsense that we have now.

3005

Living Room / Re: TSA Accepts Money For Hands-Off Screening

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 09:36 AM »

^^   

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Living Room / Re: Worth Reading: Trevor Pott's editorial on NSA PRISM and its real ramifications

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 08:56 AM »

dont escalate! dont escalate!

- it's been an interesting few posts btw.

-tomos (July 30, 2013, 08:46 AM)

We should keep it interesting then~!

H. L. Mencken

-40hz (July 30, 2013, 08:33 AM)

Ah, the ever quotable! Let me pair a couple of his together:

1) I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.
2) Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

Little did he know that he had already solved #1 with #2!

3007

Living Room / Re: Infographic of Internet Usage Every 60 Seconds

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 08:18 AM »

W.o.w. J.u.s.t. W.o.w.

3008

Living Room / Re: silly humor - post 'em here! [warning some NSFW and adult content]

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 08:16 AM »

I don't know, the chance to kill the bastards over and over again?

I'd buy that for a dollar!

-4wd (July 30, 2013, 07:46 AM)

BWAHAHAHAH~!  

Sign me up!

3009

Living Room / Re: Worth Reading: Trevor Pott's editorial on NSA PRISM and its real ramifications

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 08:15 AM »

OK, so, if you define the problem as the necessary implicit prevalence/use of violence and coercion in a society's prevailing religio-political ideologies, and if you presuppose that Capitalism and Anarchy are the only two non-violent religio-political ideologies in that sense (just ignoring for the moment that there are probably more than two), then:
The Solution is to sweep away all the prevailing religio-political ideologies and implant Capitalism and Anarchy.
Of course, you are probably going to have to make a rule to prohibit the other bad religio-political ideologies as illegal or something, and then figure out how you will enforce that ... with violence.

No problem.

Yeah, right.

-IainB (July 30, 2013, 06:26 AM)

I'm getting way off topic, but having fun anyways!

There will ALWAYS be violence. That is a given. The difference is between aggressive and defensive violence. Defensive violence is always morally permissible, and one could argue that it is a moral imperative.

The difference is that in (most of) the other religio-political ideologies you list, the INITIATION of violence is the basis of society and the basic rule. That's a very big difference from using violence for defense (i.e. Anarchism).

Anarchism doesn't preclude people from associating under some set of ideologies, e.g. anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism, etc. The only thing it precludes is the initiation of force/violence. 

So, if you want to live under Communism, you can. Just as long as you don't force others to do the same. Ooops! Guess not, because that's what Communism is - violence.

So perhaps Democracy? Ooops! Nope. That's the tyranny of the masses. A mob gets together and forces other people to do what it wants.

Then maybe Republicanism? Ooops... United States of America, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, etc. etc. They don't seem to turn out very well either.

Etc. etc. etc.

But Anarchism doesn't prevent anyone from banging their heads against the wall. All the others FORCE you to bang your head against the wall.

Anarchism is almost always maligned and misrepresented. Grouping it with the likes of Democracy and Marxism is misleading. It has no resemblance to any of them.

"Capitalism", on the other hand, describes normal economic activity between people. It has many bastard, deformed children, with each one uglier than the last. Perhaps it's most popular bastard is "Corporatism". It bears a striking resemblance to its older sibling, "Fascism". Another ugly bastard is "Crony-capitalism", which really makes a mockery of it's descriptive parent. But really, they're all so ugly that they're almost impossible to tell apart.

HOWEVER -- All Capitalism's bastard children REQUIRE a religio-ideological framework to function. They cannot survive under Anarchy.

3010

Living Room / Re: silly humor - post 'em here! [warning some NSFW and adult content]

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 06:05 AM »

Support mandatory euthanasia for seniors to help keep health care costs down.

-Renegade (July 30, 2013, 03:58 AM)

I think something along the lines of The Purge might work better, as long as they take politicians off the protected list.

-4wd (July 30, 2013, 04:59 AM)

As long as we're rid of them, I'm not all that picky. Well, with the qualification that they don't come back from the dead... undead politicians? Good grief. They're destructive enough as it is!

3011

Living Room / Re: silly humor - post 'em here! [warning some NSFW and adult content]

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 03:58 AM »

Support mandatory euthanasia for seniors to help keep health care costs down.

That guy cracks me up. The nutty petitions are just off the hook.

3012

Living Room / Re: Worth Reading: Trevor Pott's editorial on NSA PRISM and its real ramifications

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 01:31 AM »

Technology is not the problem. Laws are not the problem. PEOPLE in our GOVERNMENT are the problem.

-40hz (July 20, 2013, 09:21 AM)

...
...Should we be surprised that when we base our entire society on force and violence, that things always end up as force and violence?

-Renegade (July 20, 2013, 10:40 AM)

   I'm not sure whether the above type of process of elimination even can, or does necessarily achieve anything particularly useful. The conclusion is arguably a truism - that the act or habit of violence for the purposes of control over others leads to Totalitarianism (which manifests as deliberate, necessary and systemic violence for the purposes of control over others to oblige them to conform to a given set of rules).

-IainB (July 30, 2013, 01:01 AM)

I'm with you there.

   It is arguably the same for many/most of a society's religio-political ideologies - e.g., including such as Serfdom, Roman Catholicism, Islamism, Hinduism, Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism, Anarchism, Democracy, Capitalism, Fascism.

-IainB (July 30, 2013, 01:01 AM)

I don't think that you can insert Anarchism there. The point of anarchy is to eliminate force and coercion.

Similarly for Capitalism. How is it some kind of ideology that I should be able to enjoy the fruits of my labour? I make something. It's mine. This isn't an ideology - it's a simple fact. I then do what I want with it. If you and I have something that each other wants, we can trade. That's our business, and not an ideology. (see below)

It's the Communists (and similar) that have an ideology where when I make something, they somehow earn a right to steal what is mine.

The others stand out from those Anarchism and Capitalism in that they all try to dictate what people "should" do. Neither Anarchism nor Capitalism engage in that. 
Now, for the bastard, deformed children of Capitalism... sigh...

I really, really would love to go on about an Occult ideology and its relationships to the others and its embodiment in society today. It's never talked about in the open but there are many examples of it out there.

However we might try to disguise it or use euphemisms for it, violence is an implicit and necessary factor running through the thing's structure, giving it strength and rigidity, like the grain in a piece of wood. The most successful religio-political ideologies, in terms of power or longevity, would seem to be those whose artificial framework of reference employs the most implicit violence and has as a basis one or more of some kind of real/imaginary ruling object or master-principle - e.g., a king, an idol, a God, a dictator or a concept such as "the people", "the workers" or "the State". The more the merrier.
 
   Whittling away at a stick, looking for "a problem", will usually result in a stub of the stick held between your finger and thumb, and some wood shavings on the ground, and no major discovery of anything particularly new/useful. It was, after all, always nothing more than just a stick of wood. The "problem" (if you can call it that) with the stick is that it was made of wood. But what was the problem really?

   All this talk of "the problem", but, do we have a discernible, clear definition of what the problem actually is?

-IainB (July 30, 2013, 01:01 AM)

Violence and coercion. Done.

• Is it "Technology"? It might be, I suppose, but why? - and how exactly (unless you are a Luddite) could a collective noun for a set of hardware, software and methodologies be a "problem"? It would presumably depend on your definition of the problem.
• Is it our "Laws"? It might be, I suppose, but why? - and how exactly could a collective noun for a set of rules that society has established for itself to observe be a "problem"? It would presumably depend on your definition of the problem.
• Is it the "People in our government"? It might be, I suppose, but why? - and how exactly could a collective noun for any given set of people that society has appointed into government to manage that society be a "problem"? A stigmatisation, maybe, but a "problem"? It would presumably depend on your definition of the problem.

-IainB (July 30, 2013, 01:01 AM)

There's an argument against technology in "Industrial Society and Its Future". It's very well written and has a lot of insight, but I don't buy the whole thing about technology being necessarily evil.

"Laws" are merely a mental cage backed up by coercion, violence, and fraud.

People? Well... I'll skip that.

  I could go on, but you probably get the idea, and in any event I don't wish to labour the point too much. The missing factor in this would seem to be the necessary articulation of a clear, useful, accurate and rational definition of the problem - whatever the problem may be. Once you have defined the problem thus, you are likely to be around halfway to identifying and articulating a rational solution.

-IainB (July 30, 2013, 01:01 AM)

I do see one "problem"... People going out of their way to find problems to solve then forcing everyone else to go along with their solutions. It never ends well. What is the road to Hell paved with?

   Of course, if you don't need a clear, useful, accurate and rational definition of the problem, because you already know the solution is your preferred hammer belief or religio-political ideology - e.g., including such as Serfdom, Roman Catholicism, Islamism, Hinduism, Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism, Anarchism, Democracy, Capitalism, Fascism - then good luck. Go ahead and knock yourself out. If you don't study history, then you could save yourself some time by taking a leaf out of the the Egyptians' handbook on this - they seem to be really into this kind of thing at the moment.

-IainB (July 30, 2013, 01:01 AM)

Again, leave the 2 I mentioned above out. The others all have in common a violent, coercive system where they dictate what people must do and what they must not do. And THAT is the problem.

I can sum that up as an "ideology" in 1 short sentence:

Leave me alone and don't tell me what to do.

3013

Living Room / Re: good Videos [short films] here :)

« Last post by Renegade on July 30, 2013, 12:14 AM »

Best twist on the zombie movie genre... EVAR!!

-Edvard (July 29, 2013, 11:22 PM)

DAMN! That was really good! 

3014

Living Room / Re: silly humor - post 'em here! [warning some NSFW and adult content]

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 10:57 PM »

3015

Living Room / Re: good Videos [short films] here :)

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 10:41 PM »

Here's a short mockumentary film called "Political Earth". It's guaranteed to offend everyone on the left, everyone on the right, everyone in the center, and pretty much anyone that likes any kind of politics. In other words, IT'S AWESOME FUNNY AS HELL~! (Kind of reminds me of South Park.) It's pretty much non-stop mockery and very fast paced.

3016

Living Room / Re: TSA Accepts Money For Hands-Off Screening

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 10:17 PM »

You don't do fetish(es)?   

-Shades (July 29, 2013, 08:57 PM)

Umm, err...

You don't do fetish(es)?   

-Shades (July 29, 2013, 08:57 PM)

Not outside of my own species. 

-Stoic Joker (July 29, 2013, 09:09 PM)

I'm with SJ on that one!

Reading the article

-IainB (July 29, 2013, 09:17 PM)

I actually didn't read it. I've seen similar ones before, and figured it was all just part of the same scam.

Now, if one or more of these potential implications were true, then some people (not me, you understand) might say that it could indicate a planned approach to an experiment to establish just how easily manipulated or stupid people can be individually and/or en masse, but I couldn't possibly comment. They might go on to suggest that switching the rules like this seems to have all the hallmarks of the Bell Telephone Labs "Hawthorne experiments".

-IainB (July 29, 2013, 09:17 PM)

Just think about how stupid the average person is, then think about how half are even stupider than that.

Come to think of it, and having been raised and schooled in farming country

-IainB (July 29, 2013, 09:17 PM)

Hey! Maybe you can identify the beasts working for the TSA for us then! (I'd kind of like to put a name to Shades' fetish. )

3017

Living Room / Automotive industry suppressing security info

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 10:10 PM »

Nobody really thought any different, eh?

http://www.bbc.co.uk.../technology-23487928

Car key immobiliser hack revelations blocked by UK court

A High Court judge has blocked three security researchers from publishing details of how to crack a car immobilisation system.

German car maker Volkswagen and French defence group Thales obtained the interim ruling after arguing that the information could be used by criminals.

...

The researchers argued that this risk was overblown since car thieves would need to run a computer program for about two days to make use of the exploit in each case.

They said that removing the sections which VW and Thales wanted expunged would mean their paper would have to be peer reviewed a second time, and they would miss their slot at the conference as a consequence. And they argued that their right to publish was covered by freedom of speech safeguards in the European Convention on Human Rights.

However, the judge ruled that, pending a full trial, the details should be withheld.

So, speech is free if a court allows it?

RFID is just such a bad, bad, bad technology when it comes to security.

3018

Living Room / Re: TSA Accepts Money For Hands-Off Screening

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 08:48 PM »

Fondling the TSA person would be the same price? 

-Shades (July 29, 2013, 08:34 PM)

Ummm... Have you seen pictures of them?

3019

Living Room / Re: Movies or films you've seen lately

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 08:11 PM »

AAARRRGGHH~! The deafening din of mangina!

3020

Living Room / Re: TSA Accepts Money For Hands-Off Screening

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 08:07 PM »

I hear they offer 5-finger discounts as well.

3021

Living Room / Re: Movies or films you've seen lately

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 12:06 PM »

It's just that most of the crap they put out now *isn't*.

-wraith808 (July 29, 2013, 11:59 AM)

That's bang on 110%. Very few things out there worth watching.

3022

Living Room / Re: Movies or films you've seen lately

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 12:05 PM »

And actually, I don't mind any genre if its well done.  It's just that most of the crap they put out now *isn't*.

-wraith808 (July 29, 2013, 11:59 AM)

Pfft! Liar! No guy likes any chick-flick no matter how well it's done! We only tolerate them because of our ladies!

Now, add in some aliens or cyborgs or space ships or lasers or zombies or something that's actually cool/interesting, and yeah... they can be done well enough to enjoy.

Sleepless in Seattle/Titanic = zzzzzzzzzzzz...

3023

Living Room / Re: silly humor - post 'em here! [warning some NSFW and adult content]

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 10:40 AM »

This is kind of political, but it's just so out in the open and insane, that I think it's ok here:

Some really good jokes in there. More if you check out the B.S. of A. YouTube channel as well. Here's one more:

And, just one more because it's totally silly, and really good:

3024

Living Room / Re: Movies or films you've seen lately

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 10:34 AM »

+1 for just about everything on 40's list.

I can still watch Harry Potter. It's one of the few that I can watch with my wife. She watches almost nothing, and likes a very limited set of "non-scary" things.

Werewolves - Never really liked any of those stories to begin with. Except with Michael J. Fox as he just does such a fantastic job of darn near anything.

I really do like dystopian future films, but most are garbage. Kind of like horror films - most are garbage.

However, when you find those ones that are really good, they're worth it.

3025

Living Room / Re: Why have [Youtube]link string[/youtube] fields gone invisible on DCF?

« Last post by Renegade on July 29, 2013, 06:28 AM »

It's HTTPS that's the problem. Delete the S and you're golden.