topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • Sunday March 29, 2026, 8:43 am
  • Proudly celebrating 15+ years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Recent Posts

Pages: prev1 ... 1191 1192 1193 1194 1195 [1196] 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 ... 1515next
29876
Best Text Editor / Re: Please correct EmEditor review
« Last post by mouser on September 08, 2006, 12:52 AM »
I've updated the review and added a link back to this thread.
In the future we will endeavor to offer all authors the chance to comment on their product and link to their comments - i think it will make for a better review.  :up:
29877
General Software Discussion / Re: What to you think of RealPlayer?
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 11:31 PM »
have to agree, i've never had any troubles with real over the years, and i use it constantly to listen to internet radio and watch cspan video.
29878
Site/Forum Features / Re: DonationCredits CodyCoin Web Page Links!
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 10:44 PM »
Starting september 2006, donors will have full 100% control over their donation and who it goes to, so this is perfect if people make a donation in order to send it to you.
29879
Living Room / Re: digg rigging?
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 09:52 PM »
29880
Living Room / Re: digg rigging?
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 09:21 PM »
another interesting one: http://www.marketing...ent-indiggnation.cfm

and of course there is my essay from today: https://www.donation...index.php?topic=5160
29881
Borland C++ Builder Contest / Re: Gill's Soduku Game and Game Editor
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 07:27 PM »
Hi gill!
Very happy to see the game posted - it's an excellent implementation with lots of cool features.   :Thmbsup:
29882
Living Room / Re: How Digg Gets Everything Backwards.. And How to Fix It
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 05:38 PM »
PS.
If you like, you can: Digg This Article.
29884
Living Room / How Digg Gets Everything Backwards.. And How to Fix It
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 05:08 PM »
1. Digg is a wonderful idea.. but it's horribly broken.

Of course many people have been raising concerns about the manipulation and irrationality of Digg front page items (for example here, here, here, here, here, and here).

Recently the problem of "cabals" of Digg story promoters is getting more and more attention.  To their credit, the Digg administrators have made it possible to track who is submitting and promoting which stories, and the results are dramatic.  A tiny portion of Digg members are submitting stories, and tiny networks of friends are promoting each other's stories, resulting in a very tiny elite group of people determining an overwhelming amount of content that gets attention on the Digg front pages.

Kevin Rose, one of the Digg founders, has recently announced new efforts to try to outsmart these organized groups of co-promoters, in an effort to "catch" them and downgrade their influence on voting.  The idea is to identify non-diverse voting patterns and flag those as less important.  The effort is misdirected.

Digg suffers from a fundamental flaw in design. In fact its entire approach to leveraging the crowd's wisdom is completely backward.


2. First Things First - What Constitutes a "Good" Story?

Before we can talk about fixing the Digg-style model, we need to have some agreement about what constitutes a "good" story.  I define a "good" story as one which is considered good by those who actually take the time to read the stories and have some interest in the subject area, as opposed to stories which simply sound appealing based on their title.  The objective of this discussion is to identify why the Digg model is bad at finding such stories, and propose a model which would do a better job.


3. Crowds Don't Do A Good Job of Voting on Stories

The idea of leveraging the "wisdom of crowds" is an enticing one.  In his famous book of the same title, James Surowiecki suggests that large populations of (average intelligence) people can often perform better than presumed-superior elite.  The basic idea is that instead of employing experts to make decisions, we can leveredge the power of large groups of people voting at once, and averaging votes.

The problem is that crowds aren't equally good at making all decisions.  Common sense questions, and questions where the population has a reasonable chance of possessing the background knowledge available to tackle a problem, are well solved by a "crowd vote."  But some questions, like estimating the predictive power of astrology, or estimating the gravity of Pluto, are not handled well by popular crowd vote, either because the crowd members don't possess the background domain knowledge necessary to make an informed opinion, or because they are highly biased for some reason.

We have plenty of anecdotal evidence already that a large portion of stories that make their way to the front page of Digg are:
  • Either driven there by small groups collaborating in order to artificially inflate a story for personal gain (financial or otherwise)
  • Or elevated to front page (prominent) status because of a cascade of mass crowd action, based not on the actual "value" of the content of the story to these people, but on the "catchiness" and sensationalism of the title of the story.

Furthermore, cites like Digg are highly susceptible to irrational trends and epidemics of attraction to keywords and slogans.  If an important event happens on a busy news day where Britney Spears gets married, it can be lost forever.  Because votes accumulating rapidly in tight temporal proximity is so important to the ratings on sites like Digg, there is an undo emphasis on stories that have titles which appeal immediately to mass audiences.  Digg turns out to be very efficient at identifying catchy headlines, and very good at weeding out all stories that don't have catchy headlines.


4. Too Big an Incentive to Game The System

Part of the problem with services like Digg and Google is that in such a big marketplace, where attention is so financially valueable, the monetary benefits to prominent placement is so huge that it serves as a irresistible incentive to figure out ways to game the system.  An arms race is in place between the groups trying to exploit the ratings algorithms and the services which are only mildly interested in curbing the behavior, and usually only when their own financial interests are at stake.

The current approach by Digg, to try to outwit these manipulators and reduce their corruptive influence is pure folly.  First, because it's not practical to beat such manipulations - in the end such behavior is impossible to discern from actual voting.  And second because it doesn't address the other core problem: Crowds are not good at identifying good stories.


5. Crowds are not good at identifying good stories - they are only good at identifying sensational and catchy headlines.

Whether it's because the title has a dominant biasing effect or because they don't actually read the page content before they vote, the result is the same: A clear pattern of predictably shallow, duplicative content pages being promoted which have little value to the readers.  And the ease in capturing the attention of voters makes it all the more trivial for the small groups of manipulators to structure story titles to secure crowd votes.


6. Digg.com Gets Everything Backwards.

Digg is using crowds in the wrong way, for the wrong role.  They have a very small group of elite people submitting stories, a shadowy network of collaborators who work together to artificially promote stories of their own choosing, and a crowd that is led around by the nose like sheep.

If we ask instead what is the crowd good at, and when do we need domain experts, we end up with a completely different model.


7. A New Model: Crowd Suggestions  and Public Expert Filtering

There is too much information on the internet for a small group of experts to find all of the interesting stories each day.  For finding potentially good stories, we need to leverage the power of a large group of distributed people.  One wants a way of making it as easy as possible for people to submit new potential stories, putting as little obstacles in their way as possible.  For a Digg-like site this would mean removing the need to describe the story, title it, register, etc.  It would also mean welcoming people to submit their own sites and authored articles, rather than treat such things as spam.  After all, the objective here is like the objective of brainstorming - we want to welcome a wide variety of suggestions from any sources.

Where Digg ends up with a small elite group that submit stories, and a larger population of crowd voters,  instead we want to shift the emphasis on large numbers of crowd submitters, by making it as easy as possible to submit, and perhaps limiting the number of story submissions per day (which would be a complete anathema to the current dig model with elite submitters do most of the story submissions).


8. What About Crowd Voting? Eliminate it Completely.

That's right, you heard me - eliminate the ability of normal users to vote on stories.  They may enjoy it, and they may end up with a certified 100% user content created "web 2.0" site, but the bottom line is that the content sucks.  If the crowd is not good at identifying good stories then they should be removed from the loop.


9. What's the Alternative to Crowd Voting?

The alternative to having the masses vote based on the headlines on stories they don't read should be obvious:  Let voting/filtering be done by domain experts with some background and context for evaluating the value and interest of stories.

Just as you don't ask a crowd to perform dental surgery, you shouldn't be asking a crowd to evaluate the worth of a story on quantum physics.

Let's compare the Digg model with the proposed model along two dimensions:

Discoverers/SubmittersEditors/Selectors
Old Mediaelite domain expertselite domain(?) experts
Digg Modelsmall group of hyperactive elitecrowd + underground manipulation groups
Recommended Modelcrowdelite domain experts


10. How Do We Choose Experts?

An inevitable question that arises with this model is how to choose experts.  The answer of course is that you choose experts for a content site the same way that you choose experts for any task: in a wide variety of ways designed to ensure diversity, quality, judgment, and integrity.

For example you might have a central body that interviewed qualified candidates in different fields and assigned them to specific domains of submitted stories.  Experts who are voting and filtering stories should be publicly identified so that watchdog organizations and the public could investigate the possibility of bias or corruption.


11. A Representative Elected Body of Expert Voters

One particularly interesting possibility is the idea of publicly electing representatives who would run for office as domain-specific experts.  Here normal people would vote for candidates in specific fields of expertise, based on their past performance (which would be a matter of public record), and their background experience.  This would be a true representative system, where users are selecting domain-knowledgeable proxies for their votes, entrusting these representatives to make informed decisions about the veracity, value, and novelty of new stories.

This small group of experts would be much more easily monitored by users in terms of tracking their recommendations about stories, which should be public.  Readers will be able to see exactly which editors selecting or rejected which stories.

Various hierarchies of experts are possible.  In one extreme you could employ a single domain expert in each domain area, with an expert making the single decision each day about the ranking of stories, with total transparency to readers.  At the other extreme one might create a hierarchy of voting experts with votes weighted based on domain knowledge and experience.  Open elections could be used to let readers identify and weight different experts differently based on past performance.  Regardless of the arrangement, decisions by experts should be transparent and available to anyone.

There is one real practical impediment to using experts to do the final level of filtering and selecting - the cost in time and money involved in supporting this small group.  Given the money generated through ad revenue by sites like Digg, this really shouldn't be a serious problem, and sites like netscape have begun moving in this direction.  Netscape may or may not suck, but the idea to use expert editors to help filter stories and add background context is an improvement on the Digg model.  Alternatively one might imagine that volunteers would be willing to fill these jobs and would appreciate the added public recognition than would be due a small number of domain experts in the new model.

12. Summary

We are currently in a period where "user-generated" content is king.  In the rush to produce sites built from user-generated content, we've seen a mass removal of the role of domain experts and proxy representatives.  Whether it's Digg or Wikipedia, there has been a move to treat everyone as if they had exactly the same background level of expertise on every subject.  This is surely a temporary aberration. Not everyone is qualified to take part in every decision.  Eventually we are going to have to return to a more balanced solution where users influence content in a way that makes sense according to their interests, background knowledge, available time, and abilities, and where domain experts provide a necessary element of context, continuity, consistency, and informed judgement.

29885
Living Room / Re: digg rigging?
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 05:07 PM »
29886
Screenshot Captor / Re: Redbox only captures only works on second monitor
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 01:32 PM »
yep it sure would - so would simply exiting screenshot captor completely and restarting it.

I've got a few more things i have to add to screenshot captor this month; after i'm done i'll come back to this and that will also give us a little time to find out if others may be suffering from the same problem.

question: if you capture a complete multimonitor workspace screenshot (ctrl+prtscr), from screenshot captor, does it work and grab both monitors?
29887
im not philosophically opposed to sites that charge for some premium thing, but no way would i pay $50 a month for this thin offering.
29888
Developer's Corner / Re: Computer Programming Algorithms Directory
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 01:11 PM »
nice idea, though it doesnt seem like there is much there.. anyone know any similar but better sites?
29889
Screenshot Captor / Re: Redbox only captures only works on second monitor
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 01:07 PM »
i was thinking that what you were saying about normally leaving one of the monitors turned off could be the clue, like if you start screenshots captor in the tray when one of the monitors is turned off, it might not realize the situation has changed when you turn the monitor on later.
29890
Borland C++ Builder Contest / Re: Vortex Chat - Client Version
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 12:05 PM »
pictures seem to be broken at the moment.
29891
Borland C++ Builder Contest / Gill's Soduku Game and Game Editor
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 11:56 AM »
Posting this since Gil hasn't posted it yet.

Soduku Game, Editor, and Solver

Screenshot 020.png

Download will hopefully be available soon.
29892
Borland C++ Builder Contest / Marky's Virtual Keyboard Tool
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 11:53 AM »
Posting this because Marky hasn't posted it yet.

Virtual Keyboard Tool let's you type into programs using only the mouse:

Screenshot 029.png

Download available soon.
29893
fSekrit / Re: Read only password support?
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 09:53 AM »
i still think it would be nice to be able to set a flag that says this is readonly and make the memo readonly, just as a visual clue to the person viewing it and prevent accidental modification.  perhaps it only need check if the file itself is readonly, and if so set the readonly flag of the memo to match that of the file.
29894
fSekrit / Re: Brute Force hacking possible?
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 09:52 AM »
just to add to this:
modern cryptography algorithms, like the ones f0dder uses, are designed on the assumption that your attacker could, for example, test millions of different passwords per second, and still require longer than the time it will take for our sun to burn out before you stumble on the right password.  So the answer is surely to use a password someone is not going to guess, and don't worry about the rest.
29895
Living Room / Slashfood: Cool Website for Food Lovers
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 09:15 AM »
www.Slashfood.com is a daily updated blog on food which focuses on sexy new discoveries and products.  Definitely worth a regular visit.

29896
Interesting look at a questionable review..

Questions arise on PC World tests, By Brian Livingston
A sweeping review of 10 security suites published in a major computer magazine last month featured some very unlikely rankings for this crucial category of products. After examining the evidence, I've found that some material facts were omitted from the article, rendering its ratings useless.
The cover of the July 2006 PC World Magazine promised a review of security suites that would give readers "total protection against spyware, hackers & spam." Inside the magazine, a lengthy article summarized extensive test results by AV-Test.org, a respected antivirus research group based in Magdeburg, Germany. The magazine's product rankings, however, seemed inexplicable.

29897
Living Room / Re: A List Of Fallacious Arguments
« Last post by mouser on September 07, 2006, 08:29 AM »
Love it  :Thmbsup:
29898
ive used a ton and will try to post some thoughts later - am also interested in other people's views.
29899
so is that a yes?  :P
29900
We want to take our review system to the next level, and so I'm looking for someone who might be interested in a medium sizes project (preferably php) to build a mini cms type system designed for writing and browsing and comparing reviews.  like this:

http://www.forummatrix.org/

pay sucks but you'll get tons of adoration and love from everyone here.
Pages: prev1 ... 1191 1192 1193 1194 1195 [1196] 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 ... 1515next