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2226

Living Room / Re: The Story of Merlin: The 1978 Electronic Game

« Last post by 40hz on March 06, 2014, 12:13 PM »

^I don't think I'm ... giving undue emphasis to what passes for human intelligence.

-40hz (March 06, 2014, 05:42 AM)

...

@Tao = You completely lost me. ... "No True Scotsman??? Love it! But I have absolutely no clue as to what that is alluding to!    )

-TaoPhoenix (March 06, 2014, 08:59 AM)

Put another way:
As I understand it, the Turing Test was supposed to be about a person talking through one terminal and a computer program talking via another one, and the human operator is supposed to try to figure out which is which.

But I think there are some assumptions going on about the level of intelligence of the participants. So if the human on the other side of the terminal is less coherent than a chatterbot and can't type either, and the test taker is also feebleminded, and if the chatterbot is tuned well, it very well could win!

So the "No True Scotsman" part kicks in if we start trying to say things like "oh, well, that's not a true test...".

Ah...ok. I got confused because I was talking about Turing's Halting Problem, not the so-called 'Turing Test.'

FWIW, the Turing Test was intended to be wholly subjective - which makes the validity of the result entirely dependent on the person evaluating the responses received. Hardly "scientific" in the modern sense. But as to whether or not the Turing Test is a "true test," I have no idea since I'm not 100% sure what I think 'true' is in this domain - or how it could be established beyond all doubt. (Thank you Kurt Gödel!) So I tend not to want to use the Turing Test as an bullet point in discussions of human/machine intelligence (either pro or con) because it's such a hokey test anyway.

Sorry for the misunderstanding - and thank you for that "No true Scotsman" phrase. I love it!

2227

General Software Discussion / Re: Video Editors

« Last post by 40hz on March 06, 2014, 06:04 AM »

Any digital image is a collection of samples representing an analog image. Think of each pixel as an individual detail. I refer to that original resolution as the image's definition. In other words definition, as I use the term, refers to the level of captured detail. If you reduce the resolution you also reduce the definition. However if you increase the resolution, the definition remains the same. You haven't added any actual details. All you've done is told your computer to interpolate new details which may or (more likely) may not be accurate.

-Vurbal (March 06, 2014, 05:48 AM)

@V - thank you for that! That was the shortest and clearest illumination of the difference (and one-way interaction) between 'definition' and 'resolution' I've ever read. Next time I need to explain those terms to someone I'm going with your definition and example.

2228

Living Room / Re: The Story of Merlin: The 1978 Electronic Game

« Last post by 40hz on March 06, 2014, 05:42 AM »

^I don't think I'm being paranoid or giving undue emphasis to what passes for human intelligence.

-40hz (March 05, 2014, 10:09 AM)

Yes. Yes you are. I wasn't kidding. "No True Scotsman" is deadly.

I give you the following item heard about once per week in my tax office:

"I'm on welfare. I want to file like I did last year so I get my $5,000 back, for free."

So yes. Your idea of "human" ... has serious statistical flaws!

*That's* why "Entry AI" ... isn't that tough!

Put another way, via different questions, *people* fail the Turing Test about once per week!

   

-TaoPhoenix (March 06, 2014, 12:17 AM)

@Tao = You completely lost me. That, or I'm afraid I came in on the middle of another discussion. (Welfare extrapolations? and "No True Scotsman??? Love it! But I have absolutely no clue as to what that is alluding to!    )

------------------------------------

Tech note: the Turing Test is not the same thing as Turing's Halting Problem in case anybody's interested. Check it out. It's a rather fascinating topic. More on it here and  here.

Or if you're more the visual type:

------------------------------------


Back OT for a moment...



We also have that less capable "me too" Simon game by Milton Bradley. I just checked and was surprised to discover it still works too - although the yellow light looks like it's starting to go.

2229

Developer's Corner / Re: Niklaus Wirth Birthday Symposium

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 05:19 PM »

Good Saint Nick!

He brought us Pascal!  Modula!  And Oberon! 

Thx for the link. Gonna have to check it out.

2230

General Software Discussion / Re: Directory Opus 11 Released!

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 05:14 PM »

@Wraith- Just can't win can ya? :

Try to take comfort in the fact that at least you tried. Like you always do, I might add.  

Onward!

2231

Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) 201403 ISOs just released

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 04:26 PM »

@Deo - do you mean DE as in "Debian Edition" or do you mean DE as "desktop environment" as in a distro that will let you boot into several windows managers?

-40hz (March 04, 2014, 10:11 PM)

I meant desktop environment. Sorry. I tried to avoid ambiguity by spelling it out the first time I said it before abbreviating it to DE when referring to "desktop environment" later in the post. I had also hoped that talking about the differences between MATE and Cinnamon would clarify my intent.

 

-Deozaan (March 05, 2014, 03:17 PM)

No need to apologize. I've got way too much on my mind lately. And nuance is wasted on me, even at the best of times. Sorry to need it spelled out sometimes.

FWIW you should be able to have MATE and Cinnamon on the same Mint installation without any problems. Just select which one to use at startup.

There was also a distro, which I can't remember the name of(do we detect a pattern here folks?) that was Debian-based and had something like eight or nine windows/desktop managers available right out of the box. All the biggies (i.e. Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Openbox, Fluxbox, Enlightenment, etc.) were included. It was primarily created to evaluate WMs.

Anybody know or remember what it was called?

2232

General Software Discussion / Re: Directory Opus 11 Released!

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 04:16 PM »

We aren't really upset or anything, but please look at it from our point of view - we get an email from DonationCoder saying "hey, can we have a discount please!", so we come to DonationCoder to see what people are saying, and find a thread where mostly what they're saying is what horribly nasty thieves we are.

-JonPotter (March 05, 2014, 02:14 PM)

With all due respect, when I look at the entire thread, there was one person who took issue with the upgrade window (as he understood it), one person agreeing that (if that were in fact true) it left a bad taste, and a few others commenting it seemed a somewhat expensive upgrade.

I'd hardly characterize that as anybody calling anyone a horribly nasty thief. Or that the thread was hostile or derogatory towards DO.

Apparently there are differences in individual perception. So be it. It happens.

So I'd like to suggest, going forward, thicker skins and softer words. And as Cliff Stoll so aptly suggested, many years ago, when online discussion forums were just starting to take off:

   Lets:

     1) Try not to offend.

     2) Try not to be so easily offended.

Pax!  

2233

Living Room / Re: What the Internet looks like - Undersea cables wiring the ends of the Earth

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 01:07 PM »

^I think we already know the answer to that question: EVERYBODY! Considering how our intel community has co-opted the entire infrastructure.. (Kidding, just kidding. Mostly. )

2234

General Software Discussion / Re: Directory Opus 11 Released!

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 10:25 AM »

Still sounds like a threat - and just a little bit 'convenient' to me.

Here's a sorry indication of one developer's willingness to punish an entire community because one member (in no way claiming to speak for anyone other than themselves ) said something this same developer felt was untrue or unfair - but chose not to correct or respond to.  This is a public discussion forum, not a formal review article.

I'd say they're welcome to keep any potential discount offers they might have been considering. Especially now that it appears they have decided to do just that.  

2235

Living Room / Re: The Story of Merlin: The 1978 Electronic Game

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 10:09 AM »

^I don't think I'm being paranoid or giving undue emphasis to what passes for human intelligence. I just don't think the current state of AI is that great as to be overly accommodating towards the assertions being made for it. Because from my own personal perspective (admittedly as little more than intelligent and interested bystander) it ain't nowhere near there yet.

FWIW I have a purely personal belief that 'intelligence' (or something close enough it may as well be) will ultimately be shown to inevitably emerge from from any system once it reaches sufficient power, capacity, and complexity. But that's just as much my accepting something on faith as somebody else insisting human intelligence is unique and non-reproduceable by engineering or technology. Truth is...we just don't know.

Now I'm not saying it can't be done. Just that it hasn't - and it doesn't look like there's even been a significant breakthrough in the last 20 years or so to speed the advent. Most of the approaches being taken seem pretty brute force from the readings I've done.

But that's me. I have a bias for elegant solutions.
 

2236

Living Room / Re: What the Internet looks like - Undersea cables wiring the ends of the Earth

« Last post by 40hz on March 05, 2014, 07:43 AM »

^More likely easement issues and physical security I'm guessing.

2237

Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) 201403 ISOs just released

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 10:11 PM »

@Deo - do you mean DE as in "Debian Edition" or do you mean DE as "desktop environment" as in a distro that will let you boot into several windows managers?

2238

Living Room / Re: The Story of Merlin: The 1978 Electronic Game

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 09:53 PM »

Based on what I know about human minds and computers, I think they're completely different mechanisms that operate (to date) on entirely different principles. Beyond a certain surface similarity of outputs and responses (which you can find looking most things - if you look hard enough and aren't too fussy) I can't think of anything further apart. And there's still Turing's 'halting problem' for a machine to get around.

But while I'm not too hopeful for genuine AI in the foreseeable future, I certainly am for a-life research. Self-organizing autonomous virtual machines (i.e. bots, agents, virus-like cyber-mechanisms, adaptive sensing devices, etc.) are an entirely different proposition. That's where I think we'll see the real breakthroughs in the next twenty or so years.

In fact...OMG! Look at the time! Yeah, let's leave this for some other day ...

2239

Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) 201403 ISOs just released

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 05:22 PM »

Interesting article from IT World that asks a difficult and worrisome question: Are there enough users for Linux Mint Debian Edition to survive?

This was predicated by a comment made by Mint's leader Clement Lefebvre in the thread following the product announcement:

   I really enjoy working with Debian and I’m really happy with the quality of LMDE. I can see a few things which are better on the Ubuntu side, but also things that are better here with Debian. Overall I’d say they’re pretty much on par at this stage, with a little advantage going to Ubuntu because it’s frozen, thus doesn’t require people to read/understand the problematics related to APT upgrades.

    The big difference though is popularity and adoption. LMDE started as an R&D project, it was successful and so we continued it. Nowadays it’s as popular as one of our DE editions, but it requires maintaining on a different base, testing UPs and it is declined into two DEs. That’s a lot of extra work compared to a MATE, Xfce or KDE edition.

    It would have to become more popular and gather wider adoption from the community for us to put more resources into it. We’re giving it our best shot each time and we hope people will enjoy it, but at the end of the day our focus needs to reflect what the majority of our users want. LMDE is special, it’s extremely exciting to work on, it holds strategic interests (in the eventuality of a complete departure from Ubuntu for instance) and it keeps getting better. But it does need more adoption and we do spend too much resources on it already with the current level of adoption.

Jim Lynch of IT World had this to say to the above comment:

I admire the Linux Mint developers for doing LMDE, but Clem's comment does make me wonder if a day will come when it has to be cut in favor of the Ubuntu versions. It's a bit disheartening to read that the Linux Mint developers can't put any more resources into it until its popularity increases.
.
.
.
The Ubuntu developers have alienated some Linux users with their decisions so it seemed reasonable to me to think that a significant number of Linux Mint users might have dumped the Ubuntu versions and moved to LMDE. But I guess that just hasn't happened yet.

It will be very interesting to see if this changes in the future or if Linux Mint Debian Edition either stagnates or ultimately declines in terms of usage. I think it will be a very sad day for users if the Linux Mint developers ever decide to shut down development of LMDE...

Hopefully LMDE will be forked or independently developed if that ever happens. But only time will tell.


Fingers crossed.

2240

Living Room / Re: The Story of Merlin: The 1978 Electronic Game

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 03:48 PM »

Own one and still play with it. It's a fun gadget.

2241

Living Room / Re: What books are you reading?

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 01:54 PM »

Mysteries of the Middle Ages: And the Beginning of the Modern World by Thomas Cahill.



It's a very literate and personal examination of the people, places and things in the middle ages that had a profound and lasting impact on the subsequent social and intellectual development of Western Europe. Chatty in places, and quite funny at times, it goes a long way towards helping people get some insight into the medieval mindset. Important because the people of that period's minds worked and interpreted their world very differently than the minds of today. In some respects, until you can get into their heads, very little of the Middle Ages makes much sense or appears very civilized. However, once you do get your head around where these people were coming from, and their reasons for doing things, you can then see the Middle Ages as an extremely sophisticated and vibrant culture. One that has a far greater continuing influence on our world than our modern weltanschauung's bias towards the Renaissance and The Enlightenment would care to admit.

Nicely illustrated with faux-illuminated chapter pages, maps, and famous artworks. And the superb typography and paper quality are an unexpected surprise in this era of expensive (albeit cheaply made) trade paperbacks.

Some examples here if anybody cares to see:

       

A fun and interesting read. Recommended!

2242

Living Room / Re: What books are you reading?

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 01:27 PM »

I'm happy to be done with "How to Create a Mind: The Secret of Human Thought Revealed" by Ray Kurzweil

You can file this one away as another famous narcissist with money getting more famous with a self-indulgent book that is mostly empty of insight and full of self promotion. Blech. Terrible.

-mouser (March 04, 2014, 12:00 PM)

Blech?

Terrible?

You're far too kind. For some reason the phrase "sucks out loud" keeps popping into my head every time I think back on reading that book.
 

2243

General Software Discussion / Re: Directory Opus 11 Released!

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 01:22 PM »

I never personally saw the need for something with as many bells and whistles as Directory Opus. But I'm fairly organized up front, so I seldom need to move things around or go searching much once I save something to my drives. Still... if you really do need something like this I guess it's worth the money.

2244

General Software Discussion / Re: XP to Windows 7 advice

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 08:41 AM »

Just to clarify my earlier post, it only applied to Live and Word 2000 where it introduced problems.  Post Word 2000 the Live add-ins should work just fine.

2245

Living Room / Re: Netflix Mocks Amazon's Drone Delivery with Video!

« Last post by 40hz on March 04, 2014, 08:38 AM »

^Yup! Got it.

And yeah...the word choice is definitely (to coin a term) 'Ren-like.'

2246

General Software Discussion / Re: XP to Windows 7 advice

« Last post by 40hz on March 03, 2014, 08:27 PM »

^Yup. And IIRC, Office 2013 Home & Business Edition only allows installation on one PC at a time. That was another change that came in with the 2013 editions. Funny how Microsoft didn't feel the need to highlight that little change in their licensing huh?

2247

Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) 201403 ISOs just released

« Last post by 40hz on March 03, 2014, 07:58 PM »

I'd like to go in that direction too - have you decided on an approach?

I'd like to not have certain programs get pulled out from under though (I have this vague impression that sometimes things leave testing temporarily) -- do you think that could be a potential problem?

-ewemoa (March 03, 2014, 07:31 PM)

It's a distinct possibility although I didn't encounter much of it previously. Also, whenever something did go seriously wonky following an upgrade, it was usually fixed within a few days.

The biggest difference I've seen with LMDE is that it isn't quite as polished as the Ubu-based versions. (And to Ubuntu's credit they do add a great deal to enhance the entire enduser experience. Something you won't always notice until you try something else.) So LMDE sometimes needs a little more tweaking to get everything "just right." That's in contrast to "standard" Mint which needs virtually none.

Previous LMDEs were also noticeably faster than the Ubu-based versions. I don't know if it's still the case, but I'm guessing it probably is. On a fast enough machine it probably won't matter. Regular Mint (on a modern PC with around 4Gb RAM) is plenty fast anyway.

I guess the best way to think about it is to remember you're running Debian rather than Ubuntu with LMDE - with all that implies. If you let that understanding guide your decision and expectations there shouldn't be any bad surprises. If you've had previous experience with Debian you should be fine. If not, you'll possibly need to learn a little more. But learning something new is always a good thing, so no knock there.

-----

Addenda: regarding approach...

I have the luxury of having several machines at my disposal. So what I do (and would do even if I only had one machine) is throw a new drive into whatever I'm installing on and go from there. I'll keep a new distro up for a week or two, to see how well it works for me, and decide if I like it. (Just because it works doesn't mean I'll want to spend my workday using it. These days I expect more than "just works" from a distro.)

If it makes it past a few weeks with no major disasters or showstoppers - and find myself using the new distro more and more - it's a keeper. If I really love it, I'll install it on everything. If I just like it, I'll keep it on whatever it's running on and leave the other machines as is. (FWIW I'll usually have two or three distros running on my network at any point in time.) Over time. and with day to day use. there's usually one distro I find myself obviously gravitating towards. That becomes my go-to distro until something I "really like" more comes along. It's kind of an organic approach to distro selection and deployment. But it works for me. YMMV.
 

2248

General Software Discussion / Re: XP to Windows 7 advice

« Last post by 40hz on March 03, 2014, 07:37 PM »

Re LibreOffice, App103 expressed my concern, that all the VBA code I've written won't work, or won't work well.  Plus the groups I work with are all standardized on Office.

-AndyM (March 03, 2014, 11:05 AM)

Whoops...missed the VBA part.

The answer is: No, VBA code won't work with anything other than MS Office. Sorry for not seeing that earlier. Looks like you're stuck with Microsoft. Not that that's a bad thing. Office is a very capable productivity suite even if it is bloated beyond necessity IMHO.

Something you may want to consider...if you don't mind subscribing versus buying once (until you upgrade), you could look at the Office 365 offering from Microsoft. A $150/yr subscription to Office 365 Small Business Premium or Office 365 Small Business Premium will get you the whole shebang plus a lot more. And the business version will do monthly billing although it will cost $15 per month ($180/yr) instead of $12.50 ($150/yr) if you go that route. Not a bad trade-off if cash flow is tight.

There are some considerations and caveats with Office 365. So be sure to read through what it's about to see if it will work for you.
Microsoft will also give you a free trial (no credit card required) which I strongly suggest you take advantage of before subscribing if you do think it's something you'd be interested in.

Office 365 is not for everybody. But even I have to (reluctantly) admit it makes sense for many people and businesses.

 

2249

Living Room / Re: Netflix Mocks Amazon's Drone Delivery with Video!

« Last post by 40hz on March 03, 2014, 06:37 PM »

Oh...sorry...I though Stoic meant the comic was posted on Ren's blog.

Ain't English a great language. "Start doing" is such a context dependent phrase...

2250

General Software Discussion / Re: Repairing Windows 7 from the recovery console

« Last post by 40hz on March 03, 2014, 06:28 PM »

The cleanest most true to vanilla OEM disks I've ever found were Dell's. I've used them on all brands and never had a problem with anything as long as the COA was still readable.

-Stoic Joker (March 03, 2014, 05:28 PM)

+1. They (up to Win7 at least) do seem to work on most brands I've tried and (mostly) will install without issue if you have a valid product key to enter from a COA sticker.

The real hassle, however, is finding and getting all the drivers for the specific make and model of the PC or laptop. It's not always easy to find exactly what you need. It largely depends on how well the support section of the manufacturer's website is arranged. I'm also starting to run into situations where some drivers (older or model specific) either aren't available for download at all - or aren't without an e-mail request since the file isn't kept in the public download area. (This happens a lot with bug fix firmware for consumer-grade routers too!)

-------------------------------------------

People please...do us poor support techs a big favor and make a set of friggin' product and recovery disks for your machine? And if you haven't already, do it now? Pretty please? With sugar!