Recent Posts

11226

Living Room / Re: which operating system you like most....

« Last post by 40hz on October 14, 2008, 08:58 PM »

An "object-oriented OS" doesn't necessarily meant it's implemented an OOP language, but probably more along the lines of being modularized, and modules being interconnectable/scriptable (kinda like I understand Apple have been trying to do on OSX with "that scripting language" that is "pretty widely supported"?).

Also, you don't need a language with syntactic sugar to do OOP programming - people are doing it in C and Assembly probably without even knowing (as soon as you're dealing with the win32 API, you're doing OO programming, whether you realize it or not ).

-f0dder (October 14, 2008, 07:03 PM)

I don't think of object-oriented design and modularization as being one and the same thing - although I could be wrong in my opinion. What you are describing sounds very much like something that has already been done. I'm referring to the concurrent development of the Modula-2 programming language and the Lilith Workstation back in 1978. These were actual working systems, not just some paper or wire-wrap prototypes. Here's a 1981 vintage unit in use. Looks a lot like another computer that came out in January of 1984 doesn't it?

From: A Brief History of Modula and Lilith
http://www.modulaware.com/mdlt52.htm

The need for a structured language with a module facility was less pronounced in the software community at large than in our immediate environment. An explanation of this requires some digression. The computing facilities available in 1977 were essentially large scale mainframes hosting sophisticated time-sharing systems, accessible only via terminals and remote satellites. The revolutionary concept of the powerful, personal workstation - the Alto computer developed at PARC - appeared to me like a revelation [4]. I was immediately convinced that there was no point in continuing development of software, except if based on and oriented towards this novel computing environment. However, such devices not being available on the market, there remained only one path to proceed, namely to design and build one on our own. Again, there was a recogized need and an idea of a solution. The project produced the workstation Lilith [5, 6].

There is no point in creating new hardware without new software. A basic operating system, utility programs, and first applications were to be developed concurrently, and therefore a programming language and its compiler were required as well. In fact, the primary incentive for designing Modula-2 was the need for a simple, allround language capable of expressing the whole range of programs needed to render Lilith into a powerful software development tool. The explicit goal was to use one and the same language for all Lilith software. Evidently, Modula and Lilith grew as a couple, and it would be futile to record the history of one without that of the other.

***

In December 1980, the first pilot series of 20 Liliths, manufactured in Utah under the supervision of R. Ohran, were delivered to ETH Zurich. Further software development proceeded with a more than a 20-fold hardware power at our disposal. A genuine personal workstation environment had successfully been established.

You can download the Lilith design spec (in PDF format) from here:
http://www.cfbsoftwa...les080813/Lilith.pdf

And the Modula-2 Handbook here:
http://www.cfbsoftwa...dula2%20Handbook.pdf

Modula-2 did not directly support object-oriented programming it was still possible to do it:

Although Modula does not support object-oriented programming, it at least makes it possible through the use of the type ADDRESS and the rule that an address value may be assigned to any pointer variable.

The Lilith Workstation and Modula-2 Programming language were succeeded by the Ceres workstation and the Oberon Programming Language. The Oberon OS is itself written in the Oberon programming language.

11227

Living Room / Re: which operating system you like most....

« Last post by 40hz on October 14, 2008, 06:27 PM »

The problem is now that nobody can or will make a decent modern OS.

-Renegade (October 08, 2008, 01:35 PM)

Yes. Especially now that everybody knows exactly how to do that - and agrees on what constitutes such a "decent modern OS."

I don't think there's anything even close to universal consensus on that topic.

The open source guys couldn't manage it if they tried because they're all sucking the Linux Penguin tit and ranting about how good it is.

Now there's an image I won't be getting out of my mind anytime soon. Thanks, I guess... (yuck!)

A fully object oriented OS is what we need, and want, but the market just won't allow it now.

An OO OS would advance computing by leagues. But who's going to pay to develop it?

Didn't they try to do that already with Smalltalk- which was (arguably) a rather nice little operating system that most people mistook for a programming language? (Many loved it. Very few used it.)

Objects are only one approach to dealing with programming complexity. They're not the only one. And while the object paradigm has proven useful, it has only resulted in improvements to our methodolgies for software development. It has not produced the world-changing, indisputable, all encompassing benefits that were originally claimed for it. It just turned out to be a better way of doing things. There is nothing in the object-oriented methodology that has conclusively proven it to be the best methodology for all classes of applications.

At least as far as I've seen. 

11228

Living Room / Re: One answered question before you died

« Last post by 40hz on October 14, 2008, 06:08 PM »

Plowing through the Wikipedia article, but I think I'm going to have to do some additional reading before I can comment. I found one factual error* in the article that makes me wonder what else in there is wrong...

-40hz (October 12, 2008, 06:29 PM)

To be honest, I didn't read the Wikipedia article, because I've been introduced to Sapir-Whorf through college courses. So I was just linking it for the sake of providing some background information about it.

-Deozaan (October 13, 2008, 07:19 PM)

Appreciated, and not a problem. It was just that I found Sapir-Whorf so interesting that I wanted to make sure I was getting it correctly.

11229

Living Room / Re: Should Microsoft become an OEM (PC manufacturer)?

« Last post by 40hz on October 14, 2008, 05:56 PM »

The XBOX venture, while successful, it's costing them millions, the first console because of low sales, the second one because of the RROD. A line of PCs would be a headache.

-Lashiec (October 14, 2008, 12:38 PM)

Yeah, but a business/general productivity system would be far easier to develop and manufacture than a game console. Game programs use more horsepower and demand vastly better graphics than the usual "productivity" (i.e. wordprocessing/spreadsheet/database/presentation graphics/e-mail/web browser) type machine. We're talking PalmPilot mindset - not PSP here.

Then there's also the Atom processor - which is dirt cheap already. Microsoft could do a reduced version of Office that got rid of all the fluff most people never use, and fine tune their software so it sings on the Atom. If somebody needed the extra features, they could be downloaded as plug-ins just like everybody else seems to be doing.

I don't see how they could lose from either a technical or a marketing viewpoint. (Politically and legally might be a different story however.)

11230

Living Room / Re: My computer is older than YOUR computer!

« Last post by 40hz on October 14, 2008, 05:26 PM »

I've got a VIC-20, a C64, and a C-128. I used to be big on Commodore before they nuked themselves through sheer stupidity.

There was also a RadioShack TRS-80 up in the attic somewhere, unless My Beloved got fed up with my techno-packrat behaviors and tossed it already.

Also a Northgate 386-20 (2 of them actually!) and an old CompuAdd 486DX-something. I'll have to dig it out and check.

(Anybody out there got a Lisa or a PDP?)

11231

Living Room / Re: Eggnog season is upon us!

« Last post by 40hz on October 14, 2008, 05:16 PM »

by sticking a hot poker from the fire into your glass of wine and throw in a couple of spices - but that could be a myth of course

-tomos (October 14, 2008, 01:21 PM)

I should mull it over, you wouldn't want to myth with a red-hot poker!

-cranioscopical (October 14, 2008, 02:52 PM)

That's the spirit! But I wonder...is sitting around the fireplace getting drunk what they mean when they say "I was involved in a fender bender?"

f0dder: Do you have a good Glögg recipe you'd care to share with us. I notice you're from Denmark, so I'd guess you're better qualified to talk about Glögg then most.

Edvard: I'm with you 100% on the whole eggnog thing. I'll take it any way I get it, although someone did me up a mug of it last Christmas with a splash of Southern Comfort that I thought was quite good. It also made me happy somebody finally found something that Southern Comfort was actually good for. (I'm joking! sorta...  )

I'd also like to toss in a vote for apple cider as another good thing that comes with the autumn season. I'm in New England, so this time of year is noted for the arrival of gallons and gallons of superb (locally produced) cider. Good hot or cold - and with or without a splash of "Dutch courage."

"Life is good!"

11232

General Software Discussion / Re: 100-fold WPA/WPA2 bruteforce speed increase

« Last post by 40hz on October 14, 2008, 10:08 AM »

In response to your post..I know everyone says this, but I KNEW this was going to happen. I finally relent, after years of resisting wireless, and now that I finally give in (my dad wouldn't shutup), with my 32 character password and my WPA2, this crops up. Wireless routers are becoming obsolete faster than USB keys, guess there's no point buying that draft-n now, I'll have to replace it in 6 months to stay secure anyway

-Ehtyar (October 14, 2008, 01:47 AM)

I don't think it's really the fault of the router. Most people don't effectively use all the security features in the routers they already own. And weak passwords, which most people use, will break any security system no matter how good the technology is.

Your router is also firmware based so it should be easily upgradeable to new security standards as long as the manufacturer chooses to provide updates for the model you own.

You should still be able to get a high degree of security on many WAPs by taking advantage of the VPN feature found in most. If your router doesn't support VPN you may be able to install 3rd party firmware that can add that feature.

Take a look at DD-WRT as a starting point. It will give yousome ideas of what's out there. TAke a look at the Wikipedia article since it's easier to follow then the original website. Also take a look at what it has to say about OpenVPN and Chillispot in the features subsection. You can use that to jumpstart your understanding of network security offerings.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd-wrt

Maybe we can't stop the baddies. But at least we can keep them working nights and weekends.

11233

Living Room / Re: which operating system you like most....

« Last post by 40hz on October 13, 2008, 05:24 PM »

FreeDOS: Why last? Well, I never actually used it besides setting it up on a couple computers at school, but seems like a nice clone.

Actually, FreeDOS is nice for playing old dos games, such as they are...
I've found that most *good* dos games play in dosbox like a un-accelerated 386 and the "protected-mode" dos games I've run into don't run at all.

-Edvard (October 13, 2008, 03:07 PM)

That's why I kept my old Northgate 386-20 and NEC MultiSync 15" Monitor. Ultima III Exodus and Leisure Suit Larry just don't look right in emulation.

Besides, it a real laugh watching some techno-snob Half-Life 2 fanboy (with a tricked-out $4K gaming rig) admit that "These old games are awesome!"

Sometimes P.O.S. can also be read as: Perfectly Obvious Solution

11234

Living Room / Re: Should Microsoft become an OEM (PC manufacturer)?

« Last post by 40hz on October 13, 2008, 05:12 PM »

I don't think it necessarily follows that if Microsoft become an OEM PC manufacturer that they would automatically become another Apple and only have a closed-box solution.

I say that for three reasons:

1. They'd lose their existing PC customers that might be considering upgrades

2. They'd cede the worldwide existing PC base (millions & millions) to a competing OS and/or application suite.

3. U.S. Antitrust court actions would bury them. Microsoft gets away with a lot of what they do because they're so entrenched in the business world. In many ways, it would be more harmful to take them down than it would be to let them continue their less egregious behaviors. If reasons 1 & 2 above came to pass, they would lose their "hostages."

An remember: once the hostages are released, it's 'politically acceptable' to send the SWAT teams in.

11235

Living Room / Re: Should Microsoft become an OEM (PC manufacturer)?

« Last post by 40hz on October 13, 2008, 12:39 PM »

40hz: http://www.chippc.co...hin-clients/jack-pc/ ?

Yeah, it's not a fully-fledged PC, so you need a terminal server. But darn they're cute... and can do power-over-ethernet.

-f0dder (October 13, 2008, 12:06 PM)

I fell in love with that thing the first time I laid eyes on it. But they make it so damn difficult to buy that they're shooting themselves in the foot as far as I'm concerned. What I had in mind was something that shipped on a blister-pack and hung off a hook in an office supply store like Staples.

Also, thin-client is a good solution, but you need an IT person who knows what they're doing to set up and configure a terminal server to work efficiently. Then there's the maintenance and the tuning once you get beyond five to ten users.

What I was thinking of was something more like a Linksys router. Something you unbox, plug in, run a configuration CD for, and start using. Something like a non-portable (otherwise they'll get stolen) EeePC with the OS, office suite and browser already installed. You could rig it so it could only be updated (or have software installed) through a specified SMS or WUS. That would protect you from  rogue apps, pirated software, and other the "user-installed" headaches IT departments lose sleep and time over.

And if anything, you wouldn't want it to be too good as far as hardware was concerned. All it would need to support was "business class" graphics and possess enough power to run productivity applications. So all it would be good for is doing the boring stuff most people get paid to do. Matching the hardware to the task would render it useless for game playing, video editing, music ripping, and all the other stuff people do at work that their employer tells them not to.

And now that I'm thinking about it, it would be even smarter if Microsoft provided an option to just rent the box. That business model worked for cable and satellite TV. It worked because most people don't want to own a box - they just want to watch a movie or sporting event. Well, most companies don't want to own their PCs either. They just want their employees to be able to get their work done.

Of course, there's nothing stopping anybody from doing this with Linux...

(Sorry, I just had to say that - or my DC 'nix-pals' would never have forgiven me! )

11236

Living Room / Re: Recommend a keyboard

« Last post by 40hz on October 13, 2008, 12:03 PM »

Much like finding the perfect pen, I am always looking for the perfect keyboard. I have about two dozen keyboards sitting in storage or out on indefinite (i.e. borrowed by my Sis with no intention of returning) loan. They range in price from $0 (came with a PC)  to over $100 per.

The one I use is the Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000. A pretty much 'no-frill' offering with (IMHO) a 'touch' to die for.



You can get one from Amazon for $19.95. Spend an extra $5 on something (I bought two!) and they'll ship it free.

http://www.amazon.co...-00002/dp/B0009ZBRS0

A good review can be found here: http://torley.com/re...urve-keyboard-2000-2

Won't get you any bragging rights, but it feels great and it works flawlessly with Windows or Linux. Spill resistant too!

11237

Living Room / Re: Should Microsoft become an OEM (PC manufacturer)?

« Last post by 40hz on October 13, 2008, 11:19 AM »

What most corporations I work with are looking for is a low-maintenance, small energy footprint, general purpose office work appliance.

If Microsoft produced a small, inexpensive (sub $300) box that could run MS Office, a web browser, and connect to a Windows domain, you would need to beat off corporate IT buyers with a stick. It wouldn't even need to look pretty. If you could just plug it in and run it, that would be ideal. If you could bolt it behind a desk or securely screw it into a wall, that would be even better.

I'm amazed they're not building the Microsoft OfficeSpace™ Appliance (MOA) already.
(I can see the ads now: "Microsoft gives you MOA for your business!")

11238

Living Room / Re: Here's something you don't see everyday: Linus has a blog!

« Last post by 40hz on October 13, 2008, 10:56 AM »

Well, at least now he has one more venue to get cranky in.

11239

Living Room / Re: Tech News Weekly: Edition 41 [NEW]

« Last post by 40hz on October 13, 2008, 10:53 AM »

Does anybody use the original meaning of 'gay' these days?

-f0dder (October 12, 2008, 04:08 AM)

Umm...me?
When somebody says 'gay' the very first thing that comes into my mind is 'happy.' But I'm sure there are many 'gay people' who are also gay, along with just being gay.

Must be a "generational thing."


   

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
       
Lewis Carroll - English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)

11240

Post New Requests Here / Re: IDEA: Self Distruct

« Last post by 40hz on October 12, 2008, 07:04 PM »

40Hz:[/b] encryption would obviously have to be applied before the system is stolen

-f0dder (October 12, 2008, 06:24 PM)

Agree. After the fact security measures are no security measures at all. But I have seen "big iron" systems that would initiate encryption operations if they detected they were being hacked. It was done that way for efficiency reasons since the older machines had problems with the processing overhead required for crypto in a multi-user timeslice topology. I only mentioned it because I still see people proposing "encrypt-on-threat" systems despite the fact that the IT world has long since abandoned the idea. (I think the Bruce Willis movie Live Free or Die Hard probably had a lot to do with the current revival.) I should have been more clear that I wasn't endorsing post facto encryption approaches. With the speed of today's CPUs, on-the-fly encryption is fast enough that you don't gain any advantage by not using it, assuming you actually do need encryption.

Btw, I don't believe you really need multi-pass disk wiping these days, unless you want to guard yourself against NSA and electron microscopes. A single 0-pass should be sufficient to wipe against what normal people's hardware could be exposed to.

Not sure I'm 100% with you on that. For the time being I'll concede your point based on what tech is generally available out there. But I've recently seen a few things at a private hackfest over in NYC that makes me wonder for how long. Amazing what can be accomplished with some ingenuity and a trip to your local electronics supply house.

Remember when software and music distribution on CD was considered 'secure' because not too many people had CD burners?

11241

Living Room / Re: One answered question before you died

« Last post by 40hz on October 12, 2008, 06:29 PM »

Well, for one thing, check out the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, which basically says that our language and vocabulary shape the way we perceive reality. So since everybody has a different vocabulary, or even different understandings of the same words, we all perceive reality a bit differently than others around us.

-Deozaan (October 12, 2008, 03:08 PM)

Plowing through the Wikipedia article, but I think I'm going to have to do some additional reading before I can comment. I found one factual error* in the article that makes me wonder what else in there is wrong...

*The Babel-17 entry is incorrect sez 40hz:
 

Samuel R. Delany's novel Babel-17 is centered on a fictional language that denies its speakers independent thought, forcing them to think purely logical thoughts. This language is used as a weapon of war, because it is supposed to convert everyone who learns it to a traitor. In the novel, the language Babel-17 is likened to computer programming languages that do not allow errors or imprecise statements.

It was a weapon of war because it conveyed a vast amount of information concisely, without any chance of error or ambiguity entering into the transmission. Hence it was the perfect language for transmitting battle plans and orders without worrying about the "fog of war" factor that often plagues military communications. It had nothing to do with destroying independent thought.

The "traitor" issue was a subplot. The Alliance Military Command suspected a traitor because of the effectiveness of the enemy's action against it. The effectiveness was due to superior communications afforded by Babel-17, coupled with a genetically engineered Special Ops unit that used it.

Babel-17 itself was just a language that conveyed information better than any other language. Period.

Not being a nit-piker. That point was Delany's whole point about (and the genius of) Babel-17.

11242

Post New Requests Here / Re: IDEA: Self Distruct

« Last post by 40hz on October 12, 2008, 06:03 PM »

I'd go for correctly implemented encryption. No need to pull the kill switch

-scancode (October 12, 2008, 03:38 PM)

Agree with scancode & f0dder.

Encryption's far better than deletion for security. Encryption can be done in one pass. t would take multiple read/writes to securely delete something such that it would be difficult to recover. And the huge amount of disk activity would be enough to tip somebody off that something unusual was going on. Anybody with a modicum of technical knowledge would put two and two together in about a minute and just kill power to the box. Encryption could be set to silently run in the background and do its work without unusual disk activity.

There was a program called Dead Man's Switch that did something similar except it activated automatically if you didn't contact it. Basically, it would initiate a number of actions (i.e. send out e-mails, encrypt files, etc.) if it didn't hear from you after a predefined interval. It was originally written around the time of Win2K. I don't believe it's being maintained any more (the author was probably worried about liability if it ever malfunctioned) but it is still available for download if you google it. Use with caution since it's dependent on the system time reported in Windows. If you (or some piece of malware) monkeys with your date or time settings, it can accidentally be triggered.

The real weakness with this type of software, however, is that it only stops casual thieves and morons. That's because it relies on the stolen device to be running in order for it to work, A real data thief will just pull the drive out of the machine and mount it on another PC so that none of the executables will be active. Then he can browse what's on it at leisure. Once he grabs what he wants, he'll just wipe it with something like DBan, install a Linux distro, and head on over to a flea market (preferably out of state) to dump it.

In order for what you're proposing to be usably effective, it would have to be hardware-based, controlled by the BIOS, and use to a serialized hard drive keyed to only work with a specific motherboard. That puts it in OEM territory. I believe there are already some laptops that implement full disk encryption using such a system.

(Hmmm...finally starting to get a little worried about that 8GB JPG "Art Collection" you've got, eh? )

11243

Living Room / Re: One answered question before you died

« Last post by 40hz on October 12, 2008, 11:46 AM »

because we can't "get into" the head of another person or organism to experience their reality

-Darwin (October 12, 2008, 10:05 AM)

Here's a puzzle: How do we know that?

What is it that informs us that each individual's perception of reality is, in fact, an individual experience not directly sharable? I've often heard that point being asserted, but I've never never heard an explanation as to why that assertion should be so.

Has anybody heard (or read or pondered) anything on that one?

11244

General Software Discussion / Re: Programs you can use during a financial meltdown!

« Last post by 40hz on October 11, 2008, 02:34 PM »

If you've financially melted down to the point of where you no longer even own a PC, consider getting a USB key and loading it up with a bunch of free no-install portable apps. http://portableapps.com/



Plug your key into an obliging friend's PC and you have everything you need to get some work done. All you have to do is save and unplug when you're finished (or your friend needs her machine back so she can get some of her own work done) and you're ready to roll. If you still need a machine to work on, just hop on your bicycle and pedal on over to some other friend's house...

And remember: You're no longer digitally homeless - thanks to portable apps you're now a TechnoNomad!

PortableApps.com Suite and PortableApps.com Platform
your computer, without the computer™

http://portableapps.com/suite

Included Applications

PortableApps.com ScreenshotAll versions of the PortableApps.com Suite include the integrated PortableApps.com Menu (pictured at right) and the PortableApps.com Backup utility along with a set of custom icons, an autoplay configuration, folders and a quick start shortcut. In addition, the packages include:

    * Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition (web browser)
    * Mozilla Thunderbird, Portable Edition (email)
    * Mozilla Sunbird, Portable Edition (calendar/tasks)
    * ClamWin Portable (antivirus)
    * Pidgin Portable (instant messaging)
    * Sumatra PDF Portable (PDF reader
    * KeePass Password Safe Portable (password manager)
    * Sudoku Portable (game)
    * Mines-Perfect Portable (game)
    * CoolPlayer+ Portable (audio player)
    * OpenOffice.org Portable* (office suite)
           - Writer (word processor)
           - Calc (spreadsheet)
           - Impress (presentations)
           - Base (database utility)
           - Draw (drawing)

*Note: The Light Suite includes AbiWord Portable (word processor) instead of OpenOffice.org Portable.

11245

General Software Discussion / Re: Iobit smart defrag vs o&o defrag pro

« Last post by 40hz on October 11, 2008, 02:06 PM »

The one that's given me the best results has been Raxco PerfectDisc.

I hate the direction the GUI has been taking the last few revisions, it's gotten heavier and sloppier for no good reason. But it still defragments well

-f0dder (October 11, 2008, 12:19 PM)

As for the free alternative, there's nothing I'd recommend above JkDefrag. It's very fast, does a great job and offers you various defragmentation strategies depending on your needs. If you want an easier way to configure it, look no further than JkDefrag GUI.

-Dirhael (October 11, 2008, 10:41 AM)

I second that 100%. I use JKDefrag GUI and I'm very happy with it.

-city_zen (October 11, 2008, 12:27 PM)

I'll third that. I'm using JKDefrag GUI. I used to use PerfectDisc, but I dumped it because of the GUI issues f0dder mentioned in his comment. Why do so many useful utilities go down that road?

JKDefrag's 'price' ain't bad either.

11246

Living Room / Re: One answered question before you died

« Last post by 40hz on October 11, 2008, 01:51 PM »

To the best of my knowledge, humans are the only sentients on this planet that tell jokes. I think that may be one of the only things that makes us uniquely "human." (Writing is the other, in case you're wondering.)

-40hz (October 10, 2008, 06:54 PM)

Interesting - haven't there been examples of chimps writing and dolphins communicating through symbols. As for humour have you ever seen two dogs playing together - OK it isn't a standup routine in a nightclub but it can be pretty close to slapstick ... and dogs seem to see it that way too.

Some human cultures haven't developed the skills or need for writing and when they do learn it is more often than not because western missionaries have taught them so they can read the bible. Writing is actually relatively recent in human history (even cave painting, which is probably one of the oldest forms of 'writing' only dates back 10s of thousands of years). Would you argue that our ancestors prior to cave painting were not human beings or sentient?

-Carol Haynes (October 10, 2008, 07:45 PM)

(Oooo Carol! Thank you for making us think. )

I would differentiate the notion of writing from using coding mechanisms or symbol sets. By writing (which I did call handwriting, hence the possible confusion) I meant the act of recording gained knowledge and experience, or thoughts and dreams, in such a manner that they could be preserved and transmitted to different ages and cultures. In doing so humanity has established a collective experience and knowledgebase that basically allows us to transcend time and geographic space.

We can open a book and read what someone had to say about the human experience a few thousand years ago. And since we can do that, is the consciousness and mind that wrote those words (or had them recorded for it) really gone? To a certain extent, writing grants us a form of immortality. And what we know of most cultures, both living and dead, we have come to understand through their literature.

Many seismic changes in human culture (especially religious movements) came about as the result of something being written down: The Code of Hammurabi; The Ten Commandments; The Bible; The Koran; Luther's 95 Theses; The Magna Carta;  Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin.; The Origin of Species; The Communist Manifesto; Mein Kampf...and so on. The written word has the power to propel a society into a new era of enlightenment, or a bloodbath of intolerance and cruelty. And written words can take many years (or a change in venue) before their impact is fully felt. Much like a virus, the written word can produce effects independent of the person, society, or era that originally spawned it. A powerful thing indeed is the written word.

Now it is true that dolphins and chimps may use symbolic systems (given them by us) to communicate with us. But it is our tool rather than theirs. Left to their own devices, they don't use writing systems, nor have they (AFAIK) developed such systems on their own. Rather interesting when you consider the number of species on this planet that have been around a lot longer than humans.

I'm also not saying that writing is a prerequisite for being considered sentient, intelligent, or even being human. What I meant was it was something humans uniquely do. If someone can loan me a copy of something a dolphin philosopher wrote 150 years ago I'll concede the point.

Momentary aside:
Truth be told, sod the philosophical treatise. I'd even settle for a bit of contemporary doggerel - or a dirty limerick! Because I'd dearly love to hear a dolphin's take on what it means to be a dolphin. But I don't think I'll be sitting up nights waiting for it to happen.
And oh how I'd love to be proven wrong on this point!

To the issue of whether or not I would call a preliterate society "not human" I would have to reply "that's a loaded question." My answer would be that a society does not need to employ written language to be considered sentient or human. But I would challenge somebody to show me a single piece of writing that is provably not the work of human hands. Perhaps I should have said "Humans uniquely make writing." rather than "Writing makes us uniquely human."

Re Humor: To my mind, humor is rooted in an awareness of incongruity. Dogs and horses do joke. (Spend some time around a New Forest Pony if you don't believe it.) But their joking seems to be based more on cause and effect: "If I push his buttons I can get this being to do something it doesn't want to do, or maybe scare it a little. Ha-ha!" I have never personally detected a sense of irony, or an appreciation of absurdity, in any animal I have ever known. From my experience with animals, absurd situations only seem to annoy or frighten them. So I would argue that what passes for 'humor' in animals is an altogether different mental process. Not less valid or amusing - just not the same thing as humor. There are funny animal videos - and then there's Oscar Wilde. Defining the difference would probably take a book, but I think most people would concede there is a significant difference between the two that is more than just a matter of degree.

Carol? Anybody? Your thoughts?

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Living Room / Re: How to avoid going broke on Red Bull or Jolt Cola

« Last post by 40hz on October 11, 2008, 11:35 AM »

You do not get less of anything, the longer you brew your tea...you get more.

-app103 (October 11, 2008, 10:40 AM)

I think what I was trying to say was that you get less additional caffeine by brewing it longer. Sloppy American-English strikes again! (Or should that be: a'gin )

Thanks for the info on theophylline. The name says it all - if my limited knowledge of etymology isn't completely wrong. Doesn't that mean something like "coming from the making of tea"?

11248

Living Room / Re: One answered question before you died

« Last post by 40hz on October 10, 2008, 07:06 PM »

Isn't it obvious? It's only a mystery if you have testosterone (it clouds the judgement!)

-Carol Haynes (October 09, 2008, 08:23 PM)

No it doesn't!

Now please excuse me, I need stick my finger in this light socket to see if the fuse has blown...

11249

Living Room / Re: One answered question before you died

« Last post by 40hz on October 10, 2008, 06:54 PM »

I'm actually quite shocked at how some members turn an innocent questions into a question about god.

-Veign (October 10, 2008, 08:15 AM)

No offense, Chris, but I think you're a bit naive - the nature of the question makes the topic having taken a religious turn inevitable.

-Darwin (October 10, 2008, 08:50 AM)

Interesting...

Because from my perspective, the nature of the question makes the topic having taken a humorous turn inevitable.

After all, what's the point of having a questioned answered just prior to death if you believe death is the end? Or if you believe you'll be reincarnated with no memory of your previous lives? So I think the question is largely religious in nature. Without trying to impose my beliefs on others, here is a tiny, non-denominational, summary of my beliefs that will help you understand my answer better:

I believe that some questions will be answered in this life, but all questions will be answered in the next life. So, in my opinion, there's not really any point in asking "the greatest and most important question" to get an answer only seconds before dying, because I believe I'll have it answered relatively soon after dying.

Also, to reiterate: The question(s) I feel this thread is talking about are of such an importance that I don't think anybody would be qualified in answering them except God.

I also agree with App in regard to the following statements:

As I look over the list of everyone's questions, I am left wondering if I am the only one here whose biggest unanswered questions are of a more personal nature?

For whatever reason, the questions others want the answers to, don't seem to matter that much to me.

[. . .]

(I can not clarify what I mean by that on a public forum. It would be way too personal)

-app103 (October 09, 2008, 04:57 AM)

That is to say: The question posed in this thread is very serious and to me it seems like the intent was to get some profound insight into the most important, burning questions people are really wondering about. After all, isn't the deathbed the place we typically see past all the meaningless day-to-day fluff and consider what's truly important? I understand the humor in this thread, and it's all well and good, but it seems out of place considering the sober nature of the question.

-Deozaan (October 10, 2008, 02:59 AM)

I'm not sure that is true in all cases. Most great spiritual leaders were known for the playful way they tackled deep subjects. And most were pretty good jokers, if the contemporary accounts that have come down about them are true.

To the best of my knowledge, humans are the only sentients on this planet that tell jokes. I think that may be one of the only things that makes us uniquely "human." (Writing is the other, in case you're wondering.)

A sense of humor is also a higher thought process, in that you need to do a quantum leap in thinking to see the humor in a joke. It requires a split awareness and an appreciation of paradox that borders on what is traditionally thought of as metaphysical insight. Literal -minded and otherwise 'serious people' seem to lack that capability.


You can't really perceive the nature of the 'human condition' unless it makes you cry - but you don't really understand it unless it makes you laugh. Ignore the humor in The Cosmic at your own peril.

Take a look at all those statues of Buddha. (And look at some photos of Ghandi, Mother Theresa, and Nelson Mandela while you're at it.)



Then ask yourself : "Why are these people usually smiling?" 

Now THAT's a serious question.

11250

Living Room / Re: Mouser's new book

« Last post by 40hz on October 10, 2008, 06:04 AM »

in all fairness however, you do get to decide how much you want to pay for it.