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Author Topic: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search  (Read 6743 times)

mouser

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How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« on: July 02, 2013, 05:31:19 PM »
Each year Google becomes more and more of a greedy obnoxious a**hole of a company..  One day we are going to look back and ask ourselves how we allowed an advertising company to so completely control the internet.

Quote
Google is building a new version of the search engine that made it great. This time, however, it is a search engine exclusive to the garden of Google products. If you compete with Google in any way, you’re in its crosshairs. Your chances of ranking high enough to garner traffic are virtually nil and getting smaller.

The scariest part of this is that, if you sell something using the internet, regardless of whether or not you see yourself as a “local" business - or think you’re competing with Google - Google sees you as competition. Searching for “Camera" or “Buy a Dress Shirt" gets you a nearly identical split of screen real estate as that of “local" searches. Nearly everything leads back to a Google product except for an ever-decreasing amount of “Organic" real estate.

It’s Google’s world, and from now on, you’ll have to pay to play in it.



from http://boingboing.net

wraith808

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 06:28:37 PM »
I noticed that on the link IainB posted about Wave that the Open Source version had a problem that showed Google's new colors...

Quote
Subsequently, Google asked the Etherpad code maintainers to remove JSMin from its code tree due to a clause in its license stating, "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil," which is not compatible with the open source licenses allowed on Google Code.(1)

x16wda

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 06:40:55 PM »
I remember back in The Olde Days, when I was so excited about this new search engine I had found - Google.  It always seemed to pull up the exact pages I needed!  Nobody had seen it before ("what did you say - Google??").  But it was the bomb!  Spot on almost every time!

That engine doesn't exist any longer.  The company that produced it doesn't either.  I'm sure there are some great theses about greed and how it has affected Google and everything else in our economy.  But in the end I go to Google for SEARCH.

These days Google's skewed results are back to so-so in my opinion... it's easy to get a page of dreck, with maybe a nugget or two of good stuff.  It's not as useful, not as efficient.  Not as good!  So why should I keep on Googling??

I'm really curious about how the competition stacks up.  Nobody has time to give them all a serious try.  But I know there are a lot of sharp people here who have been beating on the alternatives.  Has anyone else seen a search engine that gives you those same goosebumps, that same excited feeling, that the Google did back in the day?  Is there anything else that can give you the same great matches for what you really wanted to find?  Has the Bing vs Google blind comparison made you a believer?  Or has search engine technology pretty much evened things out?
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ewemoa

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 08:56:08 PM »
What I've been feeling recently is that trying different queries across multiple days can yield much better results.  Also been reminded of how good searching relevant mailing lists can be.

cyberdiva

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 10:24:16 PM »
I remember feeling the same excitement as x16wda when I first came upon Google.  It was, indeed, so much better than any other search engine.  But, as x16wda said, it's not the same search engine now, and one has to wade through increasing amounts of garbage to find the good hits.  However, the saddest thing is that it's still better than the competition, at least in my fairly limited experience.  For quite a while I tried using DuckDuckGo on one computer and Bing on another, but more often than not I'd have to turn to Google.  Though I had to wade through garbage, at least there were some gems.  Those gems were all too often missing from DuckDuckGo and Bing.  I'm now back to having it as my primary search engine.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2013, 01:09:44 AM »

Well, I never use "regular seach" anymore, ever. But let's narrow down that vague phrase "good results". What exactly is a good result?

1. Wikipedia and IMDB
If I am having a TV/Movie night, then these two sites are all I want to mix and match "name that actor" and "tell me some of the production backstory and the budget vs. revenue ratio". So why bother using Google at all? I have them both as engines in Firefox.

The rest of the points revolve around Advanced Search. If I want to look up a "red box", I don't want "(other) boxes and (other) red things". In my worst grouchy days I consider "regular search" as the inside joke for computer novices.

2. "Include all these words and/or Exact Phrase". So what is a "good result"? You have to spend a minute with yourself and ask "what category of result am I looking for?" If you just put "Japanese" into a search, you get everything from the language to people to electronics. So if what you really mean is a Japanese food restaurant, then put that in and your location.

If you're looking for high grade computer advice, then put in a phrase for Exact Phrase as well as some other words. That's because sales pages can't (normally!) have sane ad copy that includes something like "your settings" in a restaurant review.

3. "Do Not Include". So the SEO guys are made sure that H I J K and L show up first when you really want A B and C. But you don't want to spend all day writing search queries. So look at the junk results and find a word common to the worst offender. So if I want to put a search for "Phoenix" into the web, I'd stick "Do Not Include Arizona" into there.


SergXov

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2013, 03:40:08 AM »
Each year Google becomes more and more of a greedy obnoxious a**hole of a company..  One day we are going to look back and ask ourselves how we allowed an advertising company to so completely control the internet.

Quote
Google is building a new version of the search engine that made it great. This time, however, it is a search engine exclusive to the garden of Google products. If you compete with Google in any way, you’re in its crosshairs. Your chances of ranking high enough to garner traffic are virtually nil and getting smaller.

The scariest part of this is that, if you sell something using the internet, regardless of whether or not you see yourself as a “local" business - or think you’re competing with Google - Google sees you as competition. Searching for “Camera" or “Buy a Dress Shirt" gets you a nearly identical split of screen real estate as that of “local" searches. Nearly everything leads back to a Google product except for an ever-decreasing amount of “Organic" real estate.

It’s Google’s world, and from now on, you’ll have to pay to play in it.



from http://boingboing.net


I'm absolutely agree with you .

IainB

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2013, 10:38:57 AM »
Each year Google becomes more and more of a greedy obnoxious a**hole of a company..  One day we are going to look back and ask ourselves how we allowed an advertising company to so completely control the internet.
Quote
Google is building a new version of the search engine that made it great. This time, however, it is a search engine exclusive to the garden of Google products. If you compete with Google in any way, you’re in its crosshairs. Your chances of ranking high enough to garner traffic are virtually nil and getting smaller.
The scariest part of this is that, if you sell something using the internet, regardless of whether or not you see yourself as a “local" business - or think you’re competing with Google - Google sees you as competition. Searching for “Camera" or “Buy a Dress Shirt" gets you a nearly identical split of screen real estate as that of “local" searches. Nearly everything leads back to a Google product except for an ever-decreasing amount of “Organic" real estate.
It’s Google’s world, and from now on, you’ll have to pay to play in it.

from http://boingboing.net

Yes, it's a good corporate psychopath - as well as being an unofficial department of the NSA - though apparently publicly denying that that is the case (cough, cough).
So what's not to love?
Spoiler
Lyrics "I'm an asshole" - by Dennis Leary.

Folks, I'd like to sing a song about the American Dream
About me, about you, the way our American hearts beat
Down in the bottom of our chests,
about the special feeling
We get in the cockles of our hearts, maybe below the cockles
Maybe in the sub-cockle area, maybe in the liver
Maybe in the kidneys, maybe even in the colon, we don't know

I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job
I'm your average white suburbanite slob
I like football and porno and books about war
I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor
My wife and my job, my kids and my car
My feet on my table and a Cuban cigar

But sometimes that just ain't enough
To keep a man like me interested (Oh no) No way (Uh-uh)
No, I've gotta go out and have fun
At someone else's expense (Oh yeah)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

I drive really slow in the ultrafast lane
While people behind me are going insane
I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, such an asshole)

I use public toilets and piss on the seat
I walk around in the summertime saying "How about this heat?"
I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's the world's biggest asshole)

Sometimes I park in handicapped spaces
While handicapped people make handicapped faces
I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's a real fucking asshole)

Maybe I shouldn't be singing this song
Ranting and raving and carrying on
Maybe they're right when they tell me I'm wrong
Nah!
I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's the world's biggest asshole)

You know what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac, El Dorado convertible
Hot pink with whaleskin hub caps and all leather cow interior
And big brown baby seal eyes for headlights, yeah
And I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115 mph
Getting one mile per gallon, sucking down quarter pounder
Cheese burgers from McDonald's in the old fashioned
Non-biodegradable Styrofoam containers
And when I'm done sucking down those grease ball burgers
I'm gonna wipe my mouth with the American flag
And then I'm gonna toss the Styrofoam container right out the side
And there ain't a goddamned thing anybody can do about it

You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why
Two words, nuclear fucking weapons, okay?
Russia, Germany, Romania
They can have all the democracy they want
They can have a big democracy cake walk
Right through the middle of Tienanmen square

And it won't make a lick of difference
Because we've got the bombs, okay?
John Wayne's not dead
He's frozen and as soon as we find the cure for cancer
We're gonna thaw out the duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off
You know why? Have you ever taken a cold shower?
Well multiple that by 15 million times
That's how pissed off the Duke's gonna be

I'm gonna get the Duke and John Cassavetes
(Hey) And Lee Marvin (Hey)
And Sam Peckinpah (Hey)
And a case of whiskey and drive down to Texas
(Hey, you know you really are an asshole)
Why don't you just shut-up and sing the song pal
I'm an asshole (He's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (He's the world's biggest asshole)
A S S H O L E, everybody A S S H O L E
Arf arf arf arf arf arf arf
Fung achng tum a fung tum a fling chum
Ooh, ooh
I'm an asshole and proud of it.


wrbird

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 09:08:01 AM »
I've experienced what cyberdiva has and am now back to Google.  As for TaoPhoenix's advanced search, I'm glad I'm a "computer novice" because "regular search" has worked perfectly for me.  I have no need to spend my time going to the advanced search options.  Thank goodness for being a novice.  Between Google and Facebook (those who use Google and Facebook) there's not such thing as privacy.  It's going to be interesting where we end up as a society.

Renegade

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 10:12:59 AM »
I lost the link for an essay/article, and wanted to find it again. It *was* easy to find through Google before. Not so much now - it's gone from the results. No matter how I try, I cannot find it.

But the more interesting part is that it was subversive to the mainstay climate, and certainly not the kind of thing you'd want people reading if you want the status quo maintained.

It's just one little thing there that I noticed, but it stuck out for me. Deliberate? Who knows? But given that we know who Google is in bed with, it's certainly not unlikely.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

TaoPhoenix

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 11:00:22 AM »
I've experienced what cyberdiva has and am now back to Google.  As for TaoPhoenix's advanced search, I'm glad I'm a "computer novice" because "regular search" has worked perfectly for me.  I have no need to spend my time going to the advanced search options.  Thank goodness for being a novice.  Between Google and Facebook (those who use Google and Facebook) there's not such thing as privacy.  It's going to be interesting where we end up as a society.

Hi wrbird!

What searches do you do "regular" that actually work for you? Because I use Advanced so much I just made a click away on my jump-page and then it's "automatic". It just has more lines, but when you type in the words "awesome birds" it is forced to give you any page with *both* results!


TaoPhoenix

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 11:02:44 AM »
I lost the link for an essay/article, and wanted to find it again. It *was* easy to find through Google before. Not so much now - it's gone from the results. No matter how I try, I cannot find it.

Uh oh! We have a Return of Renny Challenge!
There are few forces (except maybe ex-girls!) as mad as DC members Scorned! So what was the article! First three to find it get Thank-You mentions from Renny!

Because if Snowden taught us anything, it is that when you're stumped, you just Give It To The Interwebs, and they will look for you as a favor!

 8)

app103

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 11:37:02 AM »
I lost the link for an essay/article, and wanted to find it again. It *was* easy to find through Google before. Not so much now - it's gone from the results. No matter how I try, I cannot find it.

Uh oh! We have a Return of Renny Challenge!
There are few forces (except maybe ex-girls!) as mad as DC members Scorned! So what was the article! First three to find it get Thank-You mentions from Renny!

Because if Snowden taught us anything, it is that when you're stumped, you just Give It To The Interwebs, and they will look for you as a favor!

 8)

How recent was it? Because if you have trouble finding something, and it's the sort of thing people would talk about and share (even if it is considered subversive), perhaps you are searching in the wrong place. Perhaps searching Friendfeed for references to it would work better. (and I am subscribed to a number of people there that choose to keep their posts private, so they would be included in my search results.)

And Friendfeed has an advanced search like no other!

ff-advanced search.pngHow Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 11:45:59 AM by app103 »

Tinman57

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 04:18:58 PM »
I've experienced what cyberdiva has and am now back to Google.  As for TaoPhoenix's advanced search, I'm glad I'm a "computer novice" because "regular search" has worked perfectly for me.  I have no need to spend my time going to the advanced search options.  Thank goodness for being a novice.  Between Google and Facebook (those who use Google and Facebook) there's not such thing as privacy.  It's going to be interesting where we end up as a society.

  I like using advance searching, it weeds out a buttload of extraneous websites.  It can turn a hit rate of 22 million down to hundreds of thousands.  That's still a lot of hits, but it does narrow it down with the most likely hits listed at the top....

Renegade

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 10:39:44 PM »
Uh oh! We have a Return of Renny Challenge!
There are few forces (except maybe ex-girls!) as mad as DC members Scorned! So what was the article! First three to find it get Thank-You mentions from Renny!

Because if Snowden taught us anything, it is that when you're stumped, you just Give It To The Interwebs, and they will look for you as a favor!

 8)

I can't mention what it is in the Living Room (see below). It's Basement material.

How recent was it? Because if you have trouble finding something, and it's the sort of thing people would talk about and share (even if it is considered subversive), perhaps you are searching in the wrong place. Perhaps searching Friendfeed for references to it would work better. (and I am subscribed to a number of people there that choose to keep their posts private, so they would be included in my search results.)

I don't know how old it is. Also, it's probably not popular enough for people to pass around much. (People are pretty lazy.) It was an in-depth analysis of dichotomous concepts and the logical consequences of them with data and examples to back it up. Not really the kind of thing that most people find exciting or fun. There are pics of cute kittens and puppies to be viewed out there, and only so much time... ;)

The site was off the beaten path too, which only exacerbates the problem. i.e. Smaller search engines are less likely to have encountered it.


It was just odd to see it disappear from Google. Why would they drop it? It was an excellent essay/article, and probably the best I've read on the topic. Google can generally pick out quality relatively well, and that should have held in this case.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

mouser

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 11:27:06 PM »
I'd just like to say it's good to see you back Renegade  :up:

app103

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 12:06:05 AM »
Also, it's probably not popular enough for people to pass around much. (People are pretty lazy.) It was an in-depth analysis of dichotomous concepts and the logical consequences of them with data and examples to back it up. Not really the kind of thing that most people find exciting or fun. There are pics of cute kittens and puppies to be viewed out there, and only so much time... ;)

The site was off the beaten path too, which only exacerbates the problem. i.e. Smaller search engines are less likely to have encountered it.

Don't underestimate the friendfeed userbase. They are not a bunch of mindless boneheads that have nothing better to do than look at kitties all day. It ain't Facebook.

And as far as "smaller search engines" go, can you name one that can still search saved bookmarks from Ma.gnolia? How about comments from Backtype? If a friendfeed user connected their account and imported their data from those accounts back when those services still existed, it still exists in the friendfeed database, acting almost as the only backup, in some cases. And friendfeed users will go to great lengths to import their data from everywhere, including places where it takes a great deal of effort and work to do so.

If I had some real subject keywords to work with and not vague concepts, I could attempt the search for you. A search for "dichotomous concepts" didn't turn up much of anything.

MohKraats

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Re: How Google is Killing Honest (Organic) Search
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2013, 07:26:36 AM »
I did find a nice short Google manual that helps a lot finding useful results.
Source: HackCollege.com  :Thmbsup:
Who got it from a.o. DumbLittleman

google.gif


Happy Coding  8)