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Last post Author Topic: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms  (Read 5486 times)

Tinman57

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Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« on: August 01, 2013, 08:13:58 PM »

  Forget the flying slower part, the biggest story is considering charging to use the bathroom and standing-only tickets.  Perhaps they will revisit this idea when people start using the complimentary barf bags for urinals.... Standing-only tickets will NEVER HAPPEN with current FAA rules.

Quote
Ryanair's latest money-saving scheme: slower planes
Ryanair bets you won't mind spending two extra minutes on their planes.

http://www.smartplan...-slower-planes/25399

Shades

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 08:43:27 AM »
@Tinman:
As you are/used to be an air force guy...I read once that it might be a good idea to put more effort in putting turboprop planes back into the air.

Energy-wise this technology could be made a lot less wasteful than current jet engine tech. As it currently stands the two technologies match each other.

Besides this, commercial airliners fly as slow as they can get away with already for years now, to keep fuel costs down. Almost negating the advantage a jet has over a turboprop (speed).

From that article I understood that using similar maintenance procedures/intervals for turboprops as is done for jets, current turboprop tech is as reliable and almost as fast current jets fly, but a lot cheaper with fuel.

I keep saying article, but it could also have been a paper or case-study...

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 10:13:46 AM »
"the biggest story is considering charging to use the bathroom"

is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

 :D

tomos

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 11:20:55 AM »
the bathrooms one is an old story now - not sure if it has been regulated, but there was such a fuss kicked up at the time, that it was dropped. The owner/ceo has the approach that any publicity is good publicity :-\
I'd prefer to not fly with them myself, but they do fly a route that no-one else does that is very convienent for me (flying 'home')... more => :-\
Tom

Tinman57

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 04:28:38 PM »
@Tinman:
As you are/used to be an air force guy...I read once that it might be a good idea to put more effort in putting turboprop planes back into the air.

Energy-wise this technology could be made a lot less wasteful than current jet engine tech. As it currently stands the two technologies match each other.

Besides this, commercial airliners fly as slow as they can get away with already for years now, to keep fuel costs down. Almost negating the advantage a jet has over a turboprop (speed).

From that article I understood that using similar maintenance procedures/intervals for turboprops as is done for jets, current turboprop tech is as reliable and almost as fast current jets fly, but a lot cheaper with fuel.

I keep saying article, but it could also have been a paper or case-study...

  While turbo-props do have much better gas mileage, they'll never be nearly as fast as a jet engine.  I've read over the years how they were testing diesel aircraft engines (piston) that use bio-fuel, but I haven't kept up with the technology and don't know if it's in the plans or not.  Perhaps now that they're trying to save so much fuel, the piston diesel engines will become a reality.  Another thing they've been testing is rotary engines.  They claim more power with better economy over the turbo-props.  But if they're anything like the old Mazda rotary engines, the upkeep will be a major factor.
  I really do need to catch up on which direction the industry is taking, but they change their minds about as much as my ex-wife.... soooooo   :o

Shades

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 06:26:13 PM »
Sorry, I can't let this one slip by...jet engines are by definition rotory engines, are they not?

Ok, serious now. Diesel develops small 'clouds' of substance when it is really cold. On high altitudes it is actually really really cold. Diesel in liquid form is a good fuel, solid not so much. I had once a subaru car with rotary engine. That car was neither fast or fuel efficient. A rotary engine is a piece of technology where theory never meets practice, i'm afraid.

Tinman57

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 09:07:35 PM »
Sorry, I can't let this one slip by...jet engines are by definition rotory engines, are they not?

Ok, serious now. Diesel develops small 'clouds' of substance when it is really cold. On high altitudes it is actually really really cold. Diesel in liquid form is a good fuel, solid not so much. I had once a subaru car with rotary engine. That car was neither fast or fuel efficient. A rotary engine is a piece of technology where theory never meets practice, i'm afraid.

  No no, jet engines and rotary engines are two different animals.  Rotary engines are more closely related to piston engines, but instead of pistons it has chambers, 3 to be exact, and are ignited with spark plugs just like a piston engine.  They're pretty neat engines that put out a lot of torque.  Back in the 70's when they first appeared in Mazda's they were a hit, but apparently there was too many problems with them, they wore out too fast.  I never knew they came out in Subaru's.

  Jet engines put out contrails at high altitude, so I don't know how diesel would be any different.  Diesel and JP5 jet fuel are pretty closely related.  With modifications you can run JP5 in a diesel engine and visa-versa, but jet fuel has a little more bang to it than diesel.  I have never heard of solid diesel, you'll have to clue me in on that one.  :tellme:

Shades

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 10:57:23 PM »
It used to be that diesel would develop 'flocks' (the Dutch term is 'vlokken') that could get stuck inside an engine, fuel-lines etc. Older diesel engines were not too happy about that.

Diesel can be treated and it hardly happens anymore in the Dutch climate. However, After seeing the outside temperature of minus 80 degrees Celsius when I sat inside a commercial airliner at 30.000 feet, going 800 kilometers an hour...I think that the 'flock' problem with diesel returns and will be very hard to fix at these temperatures.

Now I didn't know that jet fuel and diesel were alike. Never too late to learn something new  :)

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 02:55:40 AM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 01:13:37 PM »
It used to be that diesel would develop 'flocks' (the Dutch term is 'vlokken') that could get stuck inside an engine, fuel-lines etc. Older diesel engines were not too happy about that.

Diesel can be treated and it hardly happens anymore in the Dutch climate. However, After seeing the outside temperature of minus 80 degrees Celsius when I sat inside a commercial airliner at 30.000 feet, going 800 kilometers an hour...I think that the 'flock' problem with diesel returns and will be very hard to fix at these temperatures.

Now I didn't know that jet fuel and diesel were alike. Never too late to learn something new  :)

Kind of like when using recycled cooking oil as fuel in a diesel engine, it has to be warmed up if it is too cold. And that warmer is part of the "conversion kit".

Tinman57

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 08:06:09 PM »
It used to be that diesel would develop 'flocks' (the Dutch term is 'vlokken') that could get stuck inside an engine, fuel-lines etc. Older diesel engines were not too happy about that.

Diesel can be treated and it hardly happens anymore in the Dutch climate. However, After seeing the outside temperature of minus 80 degrees Celsius when I sat inside a commercial airliner at 30.000 feet, going 800 kilometers an hour...I think that the 'flock' problem with diesel returns and will be very hard to fix at these temperatures.

Now I didn't know that jet fuel and diesel were alike. Never too late to learn something new  :)

  I would imagine that the engineers that are working on those diesel aircraft engines know all these little details and have figured out what to do about it, like heated fuel lines or fuel additives.

Shades

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 09:16:10 PM »
I assume that there are very intelligent engineers that already thought about this and likely have found solutions as well.

Additives that are used in Dutch winters will most likely not work in the much harsher environment of -80 degrees Celsius temperature at altitude. That is my fear.

I like diesel and that type of engine, which has seen already so much improvements over the years. Modern diesel cars are just as fast as gas-powered normal cars are, and still drive more miles on a liter of fuel than a gas-powered car does.

Take a look at endurance races such as the 24 hours of LeMans, the amount of diesel cars is higher every year and most of the time leading in their class of racing cars.

To my understanding, the US does not use diesel engines that much. That always struck me as strange, because families in the US live quite often far apart and diesel would cut the fuel bill significantly when it is time to visit.

Renegade

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 09:50:18 PM »
To my understanding, the US does not use diesel engines that much. That always struck me as strange, because families in the US live quite often far apart and diesel would cut the fuel bill significantly when it is time to visit.

It is illegal in the US to have/produce/whatever fuel-efficient automotive engines. So, just throw out all logic and reason... it is what it is.  :huh:

(Anyone remember the Volkswagen example? European versions of the exact same model have far higher fuel efficiency, etc.)
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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 06:02:50 AM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D
You say insufficient. I say economy urinal.
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I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 09:04:52 AM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D
You say insufficient. I say economy urinal.

I think the important question here is do they have a drain in the floor of the aircraft?

tomos

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2013, 09:15:59 AM »
(Anyone remember the Volkswagen example? European versions of the exact same model have far higher fuel efficiency, etc.)

yes - I remember posting info that repudiates that ;-)
(this for the third time I believe :-\)

Spoiler
This autocar.co.uk review gives it 800miles to a 70 litre fill which works out at 43 m.p.g. if my maths is correct.

I actually came across this last week somewhere, and just found it again:
Couple gets 84 mpg in Passat diesel on real roads
I think this article is mainly about the fact that if you drive about 55 mph you can save up to 23% fuel. Also here. They do use a different model (6 gears) - but the second link says that the previous record was by the model the guy in the video was talking about...

Tom

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 09:41:59 AM »
(Anyone remember the Volkswagen example? European versions of the exact same model have far higher fuel efficiency, etc.)

yes - I remember posting info that repudiates that ;-)
(this for the third time I believe :-\)


I just checked again for the current Passat. US version at vw.com gets 22 mpg vs the Passat at the German site getting 57.4 mpg.
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tomos

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 09:46:53 AM »
(Anyone remember the Volkswagen example? European versions of the exact same model have far higher fuel efficiency, etc.)

yes - I remember posting info that repudiates that ;-)
(this for the third time I believe :-\)


I just checked again for the current Passat. US version at vw.com gets 22 mpg vs the Passat at the German site getting 57.4 mpg.

yes, but the reality seems to be different - the Europens getting less than claimed, the US version getting much more - at least is was for the expample given last year (according to the links I gave). I have no idea why this was the case - doesnt make any sense to me, but there you go.
Tom

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2013, 10:00:36 AM »
yes, but the reality seems to be different - the Europens getting less than claimed, the US version getting much more - at least is was for the expample given last year (according to the links I gave). I have no idea why this was the case - doesnt make any sense to me, but there you go.

I'm skeptical of US mainstream media. It's legal in the US to lie in the news.

Also, any car can get better/worse mileage depending on a variety of factors.

But... you also have the problem of the manufacturers lying... There are no easy answers and finding out the truth is at best difficult.
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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 10:34:00 AM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D
You say insufficient. I say economy urinal.

I think the important question here is do they have a drain in the floor of the aircraft?

They could pull out the carpeting an run gutters down the aisle. Don't expect them to provide a squeegee though.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

Renegade

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 10:37:05 AM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D
You say insufficient. I say economy urinal.

I think the important question here is do they have a drain in the floor of the aircraft?

They could pull out the carpeting an run gutters down the aisle. Don't expect them to provide a squeegee though.

Like I said before - a bigger bottle and none of that's a problem! ;D

Oh, and decent aim... doesn't help if you can't aim worth a toot.

For those with difficulty aiming, I suppose bringing a funnel could work. ;D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Stoic Joker

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 12:23:02 PM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D
You say insufficient. I say economy urinal.

I think the important question here is do they have a drain in the floor of the aircraft?

They could pull out the carpeting an run gutters down the aisle. Don't expect them to provide a squeegee though.

Like I said before - a bigger bottle and none of that's a problem! ;D

Oh, and decent aim... doesn't help if you can't aim worth a toot.

For those with difficulty aiming, I suppose bringing a funnel could work. ;D


At last a singular advantage for those suffering from needle d***.

Vurbal

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 12:40:55 PM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D
You say insufficient. I say economy urinal.

I think the important question here is do they have a drain in the floor of the aircraft?

They could pull out the carpeting an run gutters down the aisle. Don't expect them to provide a squeegee though.

Like I said before - a bigger bottle and none of that's a problem! ;D

Oh, and decent aim... doesn't help if you can't aim worth a toot.

For those with difficulty aiming, I suppose bringing a funnel could work. ;D

It's not really an issue for me. Once I return to my seat it will be some other row's problem.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

Vurbal

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 03:25:55 PM »
...is answered by "No Attendant, I will be pissing in this water jug here!"

For those considering this option, I recommend that you practice first and that you be acutely aware of the volume of your chosen container.

While aircraft mini-wine bottles measure around 170 ml and aircraft water bottles might be as large as 330 ml, you may find that during practice a 500 ml bottle is still insufficient. :P ;D
You say insufficient. I say economy urinal.

I think the important question here is do they have a drain in the floor of the aircraft?

They could pull out the carpeting an run gutters down the aisle. Don't expect them to provide a squeegee though.

Like I said before - a bigger bottle and none of that's a problem! ;D

Oh, and decent aim... doesn't help if you can't aim worth a toot.

For those with difficulty aiming, I suppose bringing a funnel could work. ;D


At last a singular advantage for those suffering from needle d***.

Dude, I'm right here!
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

Tinman57

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Re: Slower Planes And Charging For Bathrooms
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 08:29:08 PM »
To my understanding, the US does not use diesel engines that much. That always struck me as strange, because families in the US live quite often far apart and diesel would cut the fuel bill significantly when it is time to visit.

It is illegal in the US to have/produce/whatever fuel-efficient automotive engines. So, just throw out all logic and reason... it is what it is.  :huh:

(Anyone remember the Volkswagen example? European versions of the exact same model have far higher fuel efficiency, etc.)

  Look at my last post in the Show Your Car forum http://www.donationc...x.php?topic=34117.75