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Last post Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.  (Read 146623 times)

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #100 on: July 07, 2013, 11:36:45 AM »
^I think you're giving most nations more credit than is due.

This not about asylum and Snowden. This is about wanting to chastise the US and see it take a political hit.

That's been accomplished and the gains have been realized. Granting asylum won't sweeten the pot for any nation doing it now. It will just inflict a cost on what's already been gained for free.

Nope. It's not about building a case for anything. It's now "the cat's out of the bag" and "look who's eating crow now."

Snowden is no longer a piece in the international game. And he has no champion. As time goes on, his continued predicament will start to be an embarrassment to every nation.

I suspect most governments will soon hope he'll either be caught - or somebody else (but not them) will grant him asylum.

The other problem is that should Snowden ever be granted asylum in any place other than Russia, China, France, or the UK, the USA will feel compelled to try and grab him.  And no nation wants to confront and possibly arrest or kill some US special ops unit that tries it. Nor do they want it to go the other way with them looking weak for losing him.

No, I think the belief is going to shift very shortly to where Snowden's continued freedom is seen as the USA's problem, not any other nation's. At which point, the sooner US gets its hands on him the better as far as they're concerned.

red-queen2.jpg

Mr. Snowden threw himself upon the sword, figuratively speaking. Unfortunately I think, for him, the time is rapidly approaching where he's going to be given the opportunity to do it once again. Except this time it will be literally speaking.

jabberwocky.jpg

I wish him luck with that.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 11:59:28 AM by 40hz »

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #101 on: July 07, 2013, 11:50:34 AM »
^ I totally agree with you on most of that, and I wasn't debating that point.  More that, as you said, the damage is done.  But the US keeps trying to mitigate damage that has already been done... which is stupid.  As they do so, they indeed build more of an actual case for asylum, which makes it even murkier.  And they offend more people, and do more damage.

The stance that Obama took originally about Snowden should have been the one that they stuck to, i.e. deal with the fallout and ignore Snowden.  Totally.  He's not an operational asset, so the only fallout is from what he took, and has already shared, even if its not been published.  Cut your losses, and move on- quit worrying about the sunk costs. 

That brings me to the part I disagree about... by waving around power, they're making his position more solid, not less.  Especially because they're playing it out in public.  Let them declare a win with him getting asylum somewhere other than China or Russia.  Let him fade into the background- then if you're still feeling petulant, take him then.

This playing things out on the international stage is clumsy and stupid.

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #102 on: July 07, 2013, 12:05:25 PM »
That brings me to the part I disagree about... by waving around power, they're making his position more solid, not less.

Yes, they're making their position less solid. But it's doing nothing to enhance Snowden's.

He's already almost a non-player. A few more weeks and he won't be one at all.

And right now, everybody just wants it to be over one way or the other - except for that small contingent of macho face-savers within our federal government who think sending in the SEALs is the answer to everything.

ship-of-fools.jpg

There just ain't no honest sailors aboard for this voyage, bro.  :-\
 :)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 12:12:04 PM by 40hz »

cmpm

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2013, 02:26:48 PM »
I'm pretty convinced that bastards exist so that some might know what they don't want to be. And to make it easy to spot who the bastards are, and to see who is not.

edit-

check....

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2013, 02:57:25 PM »
@cmpm - I think that observation of yours borders on cosmic truth. :Thmbsup: :)

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2013, 05:30:48 PM »
There just ain't no honest sailors aboard for this voyage, bro.

That we can definitely agree on.  And the fact that you find the coolest imagery. :)

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2013, 06:57:55 PM »
And the final phase of the game starts: Russia official: Venezuela last chance for Snowden

Quoting whole article b/c some people have had a problem accessing the links:
Quote
MOSCOW (AP) -- An influential Russian parliament member who often speaks for the Kremlin encouraged NSA leaker Edward Snowden on Sunday to accept Venezuela's offer of asylum.

Alexei Pushkov, who heads the international affairs committee in Russia's parliament, posted a message on Twitter saying: "Venezuela is waiting for an answer from Snowden. This, perhaps, is his last chance to receive political asylum."

Venezuelan Foreign Minister Elias Jaua said Saturday his country hasn't yet been in contact with Snowden, who Russian officials say has been stuck in the transit area of Moscow's Sheremetyevo Airport since arriving on a flight from Hong Kong two weeks ago. He has been unable to travel further because the U.S. annulled his passport.

Jaua said he expects to consult with Russian officials on Monday about Snowden's situation.

Pushkov's comments appeared to indicate that the Kremlin is now anxious to be rid of the former National Security Agency systems analyst, whom the U.S. wants returned to face espionage charges.

There has been no response from the Kremlin or Russian Foreign Ministry to the asylum offer made by Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro in the early hours of Saturday, Moscow time.

For Snowden to leave for South America, he would need for Venezuela to issue him travel documents and he would need to find a way to get there. The only direct commercial flight from Moscow goes to Havana, Cuba, and Snowden had booked a seat on this flight the day after arriving from Hong Kong, but failed to show up.

The Moscow-Havana flight goes over Europe and the U.S., which could cause complications. Some European countries refused to allow Bolivian President Evo Morales to fly through their airspace on his way home from Moscow last week because of suspicions that Snowden was onboard his plane.

Pushkov joked that if Snowden doesn't find shelter in Venezuela, "he will have to stay and marry Anna Chapman," the redheaded Russian spy who was among 10 sleeper agents deported from the U.S. in 2010. The 31-year-old Chapman proposed to Snowden, who just turned 30, on Twitter last week.

The presidents of Bolivia and Nicaragua also said over the weekend that Snowden was welcome in their countries. Bolivia's foreign minister, David Choquehuanca, said Sunday on state television that his country hasn't yet received a formal petition for asylum from Snowden. Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega said his country's embassy in Moscow has received Snowden's application and is studying the request.

Snowden has applied for asylum in more than two dozen countries, including Bolivia, Nicaragua and Venezuela, according to WikiLeaks, the secret-spilling website that has been advising him.

U.S. Sen. Robert Menendez, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said he wasn't surprised that those three Latin American nations were offering asylum.

"They like sticking it to the United States," Menendez told NBC's "Meet the Press."

He also mentioned re-examining U.S. trade policies and foreign aid to any country that might take in Snowden.

Brazil's foreign minister said his government is worried by a newspaper report the U.S. has collected data on billions of telephone and email conversations in his country and promised an effort for international protection of Internet privacy.

"The Brazilian government has asked for clarifications" through the U.S. Embassy in Brazil and Brazil's embassy in Washington, Foreign Minister Antonio Patriota said.

The spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Brazil's capital, Dean Chaves, said diplomats there wouldn't have any comment.


Look at some of the language in those quotes.  Though phrased in a friendly manner, they are quite chilling.  Especially the bit about Anna Chapman.  There's whole levels of subcontext to that one joke that doesn't bode well for Snowden...

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2013, 07:35:34 PM »
Especially the bit about Anna Chapman

Kinda looks a little like a hard-body version of a young Jewell Staite doesn't she?

babuska.jpgKnight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.

Oh well. He'd be in Russia. He could do worse I suppose. (Being part Russian, I should know.)

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Then again, he might also do better...especially if he lived in Moscow or one of the bigger cities.

russian-women-police.jpgKnight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:40:48 PM by 40hz »

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2013, 08:09:39 PM »
Kinda looks a little like a hard-body version of a young Jewell Staite doesn't she?

A 'young' Jewell Staite?  Both of them were born in the same year!  ;D

And both are easy on the eyes...  ;)

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2013, 08:43:17 PM »
^Well...she looks younger to me. But then again, they all do these days...they all do. :P

I'll take Jewell anyway. She has a fantastic sense of humor. :Thmbsup:

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #110 on: July 08, 2013, 05:05:38 AM »
Granting asylum won't sweeten the pot for any nation doing it now. It will just inflict a cost on what's already been gained for free.

Snowden is no longer a piece in the international game. And he has no champion. As time goes on, his continued predicament will start to be an embarrassment to every nation.

He's already almost a non-player. A few more weeks and he won't be one at all.

I disagree. Snowden's ongoing leaks continue to destabilise international relations. Just look at his ability to interfere with the US-EU trade negotiations or his ability to 'convene' an emergency meeting of the Brasilian government last night. He could still have a lot of stuff up his sleeve.

At the moment he continues to be a major asset for the Russians, as he is continually affirming their interpretation of US hypocricy, which suits them in their domestic politics but also with strengthening their alliances with the Chinese and the Latin Americans. So the Russians are in no hurry to force him to leave just now, despite what they say.

Also, left wing governments in Latin America could use him as an ongoing asset in bolstering their case to stay in power (e.g. Venezuela), so giving him asylum would pay dividends in the long term.

Finally, he is an intellectual asset in his own right (not just as a pawn in international politics). Which corporation wouldn't want a guy with his kind of insight and experience on its executive or advisory board? The same goes for any government or security agency. You would want to pick this guy's brain. He is no Bradley Manning, and so far looking cleverer even than Julian Assange. He would make a fine advisor on international, security, and technology issues for any head of government (as long as you can put up with the US pressure)...

wraith808

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40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #112 on: July 08, 2013, 09:54:11 AM »
I disagree. Snowden's ongoing leaks continue to destabilise international relations.

I wonder. From the NYTimes (full article here)

Quote
The European Parliament, meeting in Strasbourg, France, to debate the Snowden disclosures, overwhelmingly passed a resolution that “strongly condemns the spying on E.U. representations,” warned of its “potential impact on trans-Atlantic relations” and demanded “immediate clarification from the U.S. authorities on the matter.”

The legislators rejected an amendment calling for the postponement of talks scheduled for Monday on a potential European-American free-trade agreement. France and Mr. Hollande had called for the talks to be delayed, but the European Commission said that they would go ahead in parallel with talks on the American spying programs.

And (if the NYT can be trusted - and that's become somewhat of an if lately) it looks like I may even be right about one of my earlier gameplay predictions:

Quote
American officials had privately warned French officials to be careful about speaking with too much outrage about American espionage given that major European countries like France spy, too, and not just on their enemies.

Hmm...interesting how France's own extensive domestic communications "monitoring" recently made it into the the world news, isn't it?

Quote
At the moment he continues to be a major asset for the Russians, as he is continually affirming their interpretation of US hypocricy, which suits them in their domestic politics but also with strengthening their alliances with the Chinese and the Latin Americans. So the Russians are in no hurry to force him to leave just now, despite what they say.

I think unless he has a real showstopper revelation up his sleeve (like extraterrestrials really are behind it all), Russia already has far more than it needs to score major diplomatic advances. And as long as the Obama administration and the US judiciary continue to refuse to allow some sunlight into the secret FISA court, with its mysterious procedures and rulings, Snowden isn't in the least bit necessary to keep the ideological heat turned all the way up.

Quote
Also, left wing governments in Latin America could use him as an ongoing asset in bolstering their case to stay in power (e.g. Venezuela), so giving him asylum would pay dividends in the long term.

Left-wing governments in South  America are a thorn in Washington's paw to be sure. But they're little else - and no offense intended. If they go super left on the issue, Washington will counter that it's just further 'proof' how all those S.A. socialist/communist/left-wing governments are "out to get the USA and destroy the American way of life." And furthermore, how maybe the USA should now start thinking long-term about doing "something" (not for the first time btw) about that.

It wouldn't take much to destabilize many political systems in South America. Their politicians know it. And, unfortunately, so do the US politicians. South America's governments have enough of their own social and political problems to deal with that I'd doubt they'll ever push much beyond becoming an annoyance.

And if Snowden winds up someplace in South America, he'll be "extracted" sooner or later. Count on it.

Not that long ago, the United States went into an independent nation called Panama, hauled out it's freekin' president, shipped him back to the US to stand trial, and incarcerated him. So I doubt going in and grabbing one of its own citizens charged with espionage is going to give the US much pause or concern. It has the tools. It has the talent. And it wrote its own law that said it's legal for the good ol' USA to do things like that - even if they won't let anybody read it.

Besides, the USA holds veto power in the UN's General Assembly and Security Council - and it's not a participant in the International Criminal Court because it has refused to sign the Rome Statute.

So exactly who is going to call the USA to book anywhere other than in the court of world opinion? Russia? China? Luxembourg?

You have the United states behaving like a rogue nation here. And usually, when dealing with rogue and semi-rogue nations (like North Korea or the Soviet Union) the best strategy seems to be to practice limited containment. And then just wait it out until they collapse under their own weight. Something that may very well happen if the US doesn't get its act back together.

Quote
Finally, he is an intellectual asset in his own right (not just as a pawn in international politics). Which corporation wouldn't want a guy with his kind of insight and experience on its executive or advisory board? The same goes for any government or security agency. You would want to pick this guy's brain.

Yes. Except doing that would also make you complicit in his alleged espionage. And depending on how small you were, could also be interpreted (and treated) as an "act of war." Russia and China would be immune to anything overt. But I'm not so sure about Argentina or Bolivia. A corporation wouldn't stand a chance.

Quote
He is no Bradley Manning, and so far looking cleverer even than Julian Assange.

Exactly. He's no Bradley Manning. The fact Russia didn't grant him asylum shows just how little they value the details of what he knows. Russia has a more than adequate and sophisticated intelligence service of it's own. And when it comes to domestic spying, Russia easily knows more about how to do it than the US does. Because they've had a a century and a half of experience doing precisely that - first under the Czars (the Okhrana), and then under the communists (Cheka/GPU/OGPU/NKVD/MGB/KGB/FSB!).

Snowden is now a propaganda rather than an intelligence asset for either China or Russia at this point.

Quote
He would make a fine advisor on international, security, and technology issues for any head of government (as long as you can put up with the US pressure)...

Possibly. Assuming you had access to the resources and the budget to implement them. Most countries don't - nor do they care to. They're more concerned with economic and internal social issues. A hyper-expensive high tech electronic communications monitoring network won't do much to help them with those issues. PRISM is for wealthy nations with a huge electronic infrastructure that have time on their hands plus some imperialistic tendencies. Everybody else can make do with the old proven techniques of couriers, written messages, and a small cadre of "special police" who can be counted on to "disappear" any serious dissidents and troublemakers.

Fear is a powerful motivational tool. And it doesn't require a web connection - even if some pieces of "persuasive technology" kept in the special toy chest still take 9V batteries.

So no...I don't think Snowden has anything many countries are going to be willing to square off against the US over. The ones that can actually make use of it either already have their own version -  or can deduce and reverse engineer it by now. PRISM is a brute force approach anyway - not some technological breakthrough.

What's scary about isn't how PRISM works. What's scary about PRISM is the fact that it's been deployed. And deployed in a country that isn't, by law, supposed to allow such things.


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« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 10:13:55 AM by 40hz »

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #113 on: July 08, 2013, 10:20:36 AM »
He's not just leaking US secrets anymore.  I posted this link in another thread, but on the topic of international relations:

Snowden confirms the NSA behind Stuxnet... and a lot more.

most telling quote...

Quote
Question: But now as details of this system are revealed, who will be brought before a court over this?

Snowden: Before U.S. courts? You're not serious, are you? When the last large wiretapping scandal was investigated - the interception without a court order, which concerned millions of communications - that should really have led to the longest prison sentences in world history. However, then our highest representatives simply stopped the investigation. The question, who is to be accused, is theoretical, if the laws themselves are not respected. Laws are meant for people like you or me - but not for them.

This is a good one too...

Quote
Question: What are the major monitoring programs active today, and how do international partners help the NSA?

Snowden: The partners in the "Five Eyes" (behind which are hidden the secret services of the Americans, the British, the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians -- ed.) sometimes go even further than the NSA people themselves. Take the Tempora program of the British intelligence GCHQ for instance. Tempora is the first "I save everything" approach ("Full take") in the intelligence world. It sucks in all data, no matter what it is, and which rights are violated by it. This buffered storage allows for subsequent monitoring; not a single bit escapes. Right now, the system is capable of saving three days’ worth of traffic, but that will be optimized. Three days may perhaps not sound like a lot, but it's not just about connection metadata. "Full take" means that the system saves everything. If you send a data packet and if makes its way through the UK, we will get it. If you download anything, and the server is in the UK, then we get it. And if the data about your sick daughter is processed through a London call center, then ... Oh, I think you have understood.

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #114 on: July 09, 2013, 03:56:14 AM »
@40hz

I don't disagree with much of what you've said. But my point is that I don't think that Snowden is an entirely spent force or that his situation is entirely hopeless. So far he had proven to be a wily operator.

But what's perhaps more important is that he is possibly on the right side of truth, the law and history. The US govt clearly can't just kill him now, otherwise they would have already done so, even at Moscow airport or in Hong Kong. And even bringing him to court in the US could be problematic, as it could provide a rallying point for supporters and public opinion might swing in his favour. Not to mention the risk of martyrdom, which could prompt even more whistleblowing, in fact an unstoppable flood, rather than just occasional leaks.

So it's not only Snowden who is between a rock and a hard place but also the US govt. The US is at a crossroads in its history and the whole meaning of what the US stands for and what it means to be an American is at stake here. Not so long ago even on the proverbial Arab street people would have grudgingly acknowledged that the US of A stands for freedom, human rights etc., etc. That situation has changed radically in recent years and now other than possibly in Israel and the other 'Anglo-Saxon' countries the US is losing friends and admirers very rapidly.

So whatever the US does now with Snowden will have far reaching consequences. He is not a Bradley Manning or not even Wikileaks because he isn't just indiscriminately dumping information but he is making a very specific point about what's happening to the concept of the US of A.

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #115 on: July 09, 2013, 07:59:39 AM »
The US govt clearly can't just kill him now, otherwise they would have already done so, even at Moscow airport or in Hong Kong.

That's not so clear.  They've *chosen* not to kill him.  There's a difference.  They aren't *that* bloodthirsty that it's the first option on the table.  There are other less permanent options that leave other avenues open.  It really does take a bit for a kill order to go out on something like this.

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #116 on: July 09, 2013, 09:14:42 AM »
That's not so clear.  They've *chosen* not to kill him.  There's a difference.  They aren't *that* bloodthirsty that it's the first option on the table.  There are other less permanent options that leave other avenues open.  It really does take a bit for a kill order to go out on something like this.

I wasn't saying that that would have been necessarily their first option, I was just saying that they probably have the capability to do so (it is technically an option), but they can't exercise that option exactly because of the public and internationalised nature of the affair (plus the fact that Snowden might be a genuine whistleblower, not just a defector or rogue agent).

Let's not forget such an option was exercised against Anwar al-Awlaki (and there were plenty of such executions of double agents etc. during the Cold War. In fact I keep hearing about mysterious deaths of people (Westerners) even in recent years who have in one way or another had dealings with the security services).

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #117 on: July 09, 2013, 09:57:01 AM »
^ Oh, they can, and would if it would suit their purposes/the benefits outweighed the chance of getting caught.  But, to his benefit, he's just not that big of an asset for many of the reasons that 40 has outlined.  If he was an operational asset, you can believe that this would not be happening- it would be over one way or another already, and the pieces sorted later. 

But without operational knowledge that has an expiration date, his death doesn't really serve a purpose.

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #118 on: July 09, 2013, 10:20:17 AM »
At this point, you know what would make the US look really bad? If something horrible happened to him. Even if the US had nothing to do with it, nobody would ever believe that.

So, the US better hope if they have no plans on bring down whatever plane he might decide to fly on, that nobody else does, either...or that the flight doesn't meet with some other sort of actual accident, bad weather, engine malfunction, pilot error, crazy guy trying to impress a celebrity crush, etc.

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #119 on: July 09, 2013, 12:15:31 PM »
It would make the US look bad in the short term.  In the long term, it would strengthen the clear and present danger that whistleblowers face/think about.  As long as there was no concrete evidence to link them, it wouldn't go past that, IMO.  There would be conspiracy theorists... but there already are, so the harm done would be minimal.

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #120 on: July 09, 2013, 12:41:45 PM »
And if Snowden winds up someplace in South America, he'll be "extracted" sooner or later. Count on it.

Not that long ago, the United States went into an independent nation called Panama, hauled out it's freekin' president, shipped him back to the US to stand trial, and incarcerated him. So I doubt going in and grabbing one of its own citizens charged with espionage is going to give the US much pause or concern. It has the tools. It has the talent. And it wrote its own law that said it's legal for the good ol' USA to do things like that - even if they won't let anybody read it.

If this were true though, then why doesn't the US let Snowden leave Moscow, so he could be more easily apprehended in Latin America? Quite the opposite is happening. Everything the US has done so far had contributed to Snowden staying put in Moscow. So either a dilettante is directing this entire operation (whoever he or she may be) in the US, or it might not be that easy or convenient to seize him in Latin America after all.

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #121 on: July 09, 2013, 12:49:52 PM »
But this whole scandal is suggesting to me that perhaps the NSA is putting so much effort into online spying on everyone because it is a lot easier to do (from the comfort of your plush suburban office) than to get your sorry ass over to Yemen or Waziristan to find out what is really going on (and get all sweaty and dusty and in real danger 'n stuff)  ;) So what we get then is a bunch of operatives who are really good at using Facebook  ;)

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #122 on: July 09, 2013, 02:17:34 PM »
But this whole scandal is suggesting to me that perhaps the NSA is putting so much effort into online spying on everyone because it is a lot easier to do (from the comfort of your plush suburban office) than to get your sorry ass over to Yemen or Waziristan to find out what is really going on (and get all sweaty and dusty and in real danger 'n stuff)  ;) So what we get then is a bunch of operatives who are really good at using Facebook  ;)

That's a very real discussion and divide.  One side says that sigint is better because you remove the likelihood of some agent doing something stupid on the ground that you will have to later explain, and curtail corruption.  The other side says that there is no replacement for human intuition and analysis on the ground.  I think it's somewhere between... but that seems too much like common sense.

Tinman57

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #123 on: July 09, 2013, 04:33:47 PM »
And if Snowden winds up someplace in South America, he'll be "extracted" sooner or later. Count on it.

Not that long ago, the United States went into an independent nation called Panama, hauled out it's freekin' president, shipped him back to the US to stand trial, and incarcerated him. So I doubt going in and grabbing one of its own citizens charged with espionage is going to give the US much pause or concern. It has the tools. It has the talent. And it wrote its own law that said it's legal for the good ol' USA to do things like that - even if they won't let anybody read it.

If this were true though, then why doesn't the US let Snowden leave Moscow, so he could be more easily apprehended in Latin America? Quite the opposite is happening. Everything the US has done so far had contributed to Snowden staying put in Moscow. So either a dilettante is directing this entire operation (whoever he or she may be) in the US, or it might not be that easy or convenient to seize him in Latin America after all.

  It would be better for the U.S. gov't if he did go to Latin America.  He can be taken care of a lot easier there than he could in Russia or China.  In S. America you can have someone killed for $50 or less.....  For $100 they can guarantee the body would never be found.  Those Caimans are pretty hungry critters....

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #124 on: July 10, 2013, 05:53:54 AM »
Everything the US has done so far had contributed to Snowden staying put in Moscow. So either a dilettante is directing this entire operation (whoever he or she may be) in the US, or it might not be that easy or convenient to seize him in Latin America after all.

An alternative interpretation would be that US action so far has been deliberately clumsy, to make it look like they are after him (as a deterrent to other potential whistle-blowers), while deliberately increasing his chances of getting asylum somewhere, to make sure they don't need to deal with him on US soil. Then one day we'll be reading about it in Obama's memoirs, how he had secretly aided the escape of a true American hero...