Welcome Guest.   Make a donation to an author on the site April 16, 2014, 02:22:43 AM  *

Please login or register.
Or did you miss your validation email?


Login with username and password (forgot your password?)
Why not become a lifetime supporting member of the site with a one-time donation of any amount? Your donation entitles you to a ton of additional benefits, including access to exclusive discounts and downloads, the ability to enter monthly free software drawings, and a single non-expiring license key for all of our programs.


You must sign up here before you can post and access some areas of the site. Registration is totally free and confidential.
 
The N.A.N.Y. Challenge 2011! Download 30+ custom programs!
   
   Forum Home   Thread Marks Chat! Downloads Search Login Register  
Pages: Prev 1 [2]   Go Down
  Reply  |  New Topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: New Getting Organized Experiment?  (Read 24159 times)
mahesh2k
Supporting Member
**
Posts: 1,406



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 09:47:14 AM »

Quote
Mouser: or plan for something bigger in april maybe?
Agree
Logged
tomos
Charter Member
***
Posts: 8,049



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2009, 10:17:39 AM »

How does the Getting Organized Experiment work?

There seems to be a huge disparity between the 2006 and 2007 version.

how would you like it (2009) to work cheesy
Logged

Tom
Paul Keith
Member
**
Posts: 1,965


see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2009, 04:52:13 AM »

tomos, ok, here's an idea (did I interpret your post correctly?):

http://lifehacker.com/398...on?t=6769897#viewcomments

Quote from: Chefjohn1955
The only trouble with a lot of these self help books that show the "success story" is as follows

Joe Wasn't happy as a Futures Trader (Insert well paying career that enables you to sock away big Bucks) so he gave it all up to be an Ant Farmer - he found total self fulfillment - with several million in the bank he doesn't really have to worry if the Beater he is driving is going to need repair. Or does he chose between Chemo therapy and not taking it so he can keep working.

The Self Help "guru's" are great if you have a comfortable base to fall back on and can afford to hire them in the first place.

Example on Renaissance man web site gave up being an estimator ... didn't go back to school but ... bought 167 acres .... hmmm really cheap way to follow your heart.

Recently article about "Merchant Banker" who followed his dream at 60 to become a chef - (after socking away a comfortable cushion of course) - not really worried about the ads that are offering Line cooks the whopping $8.00 per hour the "managers" of a chain that will work 55 hours per week.

Sorry If I sound Jaded but .......

(Btw, I didn't write the quoted portion above.)

This is true even for GTD and this is why I'm not a GTD proponent and it has caused alot of stress for me when I tried it especially when I ignored the book and only listened to most of the GTD proponent's versions in their blogs which are even more inapplicable for repressed, distressed, poor, often misunderstood, not really skilled people.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm being overtly negative. While I don't believe in a perfect "one" productivity system. My criticism with many proponents of a system especially when it trickles down to their fanbase is that it's still a "planner" group and less of a general group of people working on becoming productive. This ignores people who write journalistic and diaristic blogs but in general it holds true that the system isn't flexible to the point that if you can only rent a PC to go online or you could print only one piece of paper or you could only buy one book it would help you.

If that was the bottomline, it'd still be fine. Most books are designed to sell and are tailored for paying people not to really "better the world" unless you can sell the idea to a publisher that it would make lots of money or market it well online as a free e-book.

Problem is, it still goes further than that. Even with computers and a regular internet connection, you're still not guaranteed to become productive if you have these certain qualities. (Mostly because often times it stems from our equally negative environment that we have to adapt to.)

Don't get me wrong. These guys are trailblazers for pushing the concepts towards productivity but you can only push so much before you get hijacked by the actual productive people who may have some cliche problem, solves it through your system and then now people feel that your system is way more effective and way more general than it is and are now pushing towards a stereotyped over-simplified idea of your ideas which due to being easier to digest ends up being the model often copied by software developers and bloggers to supply the demand of people who now want something more from your system.

Just several things that key me to the feeling that productivity is still just in it's early stages rather than it's prime stages:

1) Guys like Allen and Covey and many other productivity gurus didn't really start with software in mind but it was these software and blogs (mostly containing general lists) that really help elevate their status to the internet public. I'm not saying they weren't well known before but nobody really approached their books as a "productivity" category and more in "self-help" categories prior to that.

Yet nowadays people don't even approach their systems as productivity basics even though in general most people are introduced to productivity through reading about them. This is especially notable in productivity applications where rather than the timer being improved to become a productivity tool, the timer stop being a timer and became a productivity tool more because it was the "in" thing at the moment and so development that normally improves the timer application got labeled into the productivity category so that it became more and more a productivity app.

This and many more situations like these reek of a paradigm shift and crowd "history revisioning" brainwashing that to me, proves that productivity is becoming or is already like the "green" movement. A movement that isn't really being about learning and becoming more informed about the environment but raising awareness at whatever cost just so a bunch of altruistic people would feel "guilty" and work towards pushing anything "green" even if it's not really a "passion for the environment" movement anymore and has become the more subtle sheepish movement of "concerned for the environment". In many ways, many of these productivity systems aren't about what they were originally supposed to be about: "Passion for productivity". Alot of these models are about people who just want to become more productive because they feel "concerned" that they aren't being productive and alot of these systems aren't really being pushed and improved further as systems (currently). Rather, a lot of these systems are being over-simplified and are tweaked so people can say they have a new system slightly different from what someone else read from that other productivity blog and if successful enough, often results to a book that claims to streamline the system rather than improve on it.

P.S. I'm not saying the green movement is wrong or raising awareness didn't help alert many people to these productivity systems. The problem is when that soon starts to become the "de facto" model for these productivity systems rather than just an early aspects of these systems and that's what alot of proponents are kind of missing. They're all playing the illusion that these productivity systems are the "peak form" of these systems and are merely using the excuse that productivity is about constantly improving ourselves as a way of convincing most people that if it doesn't work, it's just because it's not "tweaked" enough to each of our personal needs. I believe though that this isn't the case. I believe that these systems are far from the "just tweak it" stage and many of these systems still needs to mature more and be combined and scrutinized with in relation to each other rather than as addendum to each other to narrow down the kinks and quirks of each system. As the most blatant evidence staring in my face, I cite the fact that today there's a growing movement of anti-productivity people that end up giving better productivity advises to improving these systems than the pro-productivity people. Now how can this be if the system only requires a "bunch of tweaks" rather than a major revisioning? This is equivalent to thinking that the bug reporters of a software is more valuable than the discussion and suggesting side of the community because the software is "very stable" already and only need 1 or 2 more features. Now does that make sense?

2) Even though it's now about productivity, many of these systems weren't based on a structure of frugality. You're not designed to save paper by using a software. You're not designed to save time by sticking to one software. You're not designed to have very little money and then "do this" so you can focus on having money. You're not designed to skimp on the paper you want to put your to-do lists on.

These are just some of the basic generic premises of many of these systems. Yet shouldn't a true effective, mature, productive fundamental basis be supposed to bypass this? If 10 out of 10 practice proper form in basketball aren't most of them guaranteed to become a better basketball player than if they didn't follow the fundamentals on a general basis?

It's not that there shouldn't and wouldn't be exceptions. It's just that unless there's something inherently wrong with the fundamentals, there really should be no reason to defend the fundamentals on a general basis. Why? Because these are tried and tested rules. To paraphrase someone:

"You can only consistently break the rules effectively if you know what the rules are."

Productivity systems (based on general perception rather than a specific system) has no rules! Worst, most productivity proponents are changing the rules without really setting any rules for themselves! Sure, they are pushing for stuff like self-discipline and are against procrastination but they aren't really adding or maintaining the philosophies of guys like David Allen, Stephen Covey, Scott H. Young, Steve Pavlina, Cal Newport and to a lesser extent early Gina Trapani and the writers of ReadWriteWeb as far as approaching a passion for not only improving these productivity systems but improving on the actual message of what productivity is about and what are the original as well as the evolving mindsets that allowed our "Founding Fathers" of productivity systems to improve these systems in such a way that it has allowed these modern day writers to better deliver productivity advises to us rather than "productivity noise"

My point here is that if productivity has matured enough, critics of productivity shouldn't be left with the core criticism of "these productivity blogs are all the same" but a "Constitution", a standard by which to criticize these actual productivity articles in such a way that if you read these criticisms, you don't just get "what's wrong" about these systems but you get "what's passionate" "what's growing" "what's improving" "what's polishing" "what's to look out for" in these systems out of reading these articles and don't have to constantly gamble and waste your time hoping that the next "advise" would help you become more productive. I don't believe it's just a disciplinary issue if readers get caught trying to procrastinate on productivity articles and books. I think it's a general flaw of many of these writings.

Think about it. Despite their flaws, do you really feel like you have to dig through these niche writers' blogs to feel fulfilled by what they wrote beyond reading one or two articles if they appeal to you? (or do you end up actually wanting to read more of these people's writings)

Pamela Jones: Groklaw
Brian Clark: Copyblogger
Jeff Atwood: CodingHorrors
Kathy Sierra: Creating Passionate Users (no longer updated)
Joel Spolsky: Joel on Software
Paul Graham: Essays
Malcolm Gladwell: New Yorker Archive

Now why is it that these writers if they click with you can often fulfill you with just one article and yet make you want to read more while many productivity sites often disappoint you and yet make you want to search the site more in the hopes that maybe the next article or the next software recommendations or the next tweak can fulfill you?

Is it because these are better writers? Is it because these are the ultimate experts (not just general experts) in their fields? Is it because these people are the top dog? In my opinion, I don't think so.

I mean take Lifehacker for example. They're an internet brand. They have lots of writers. They're the productivity go to guide. BUT! They waste your time with articles such as this: Hive Five Winner for Best System Tray Application: Digsby

Now how exactly does knowing Digsby is the best system tray application help you become more productive? Note that even prior to this, Lifehacker dropped the ball by insulting all the user contributions and only adding 5 systray app recommendations (even though the structure of the system tray does not and shouldn't be limited to 5 apps) because it was "Hive Five" time but they go out of their way and name an Instant Messenger as the best app because it's hip and cool and maybe lots of people voted for it and that was the criteria without even caring if it really help YOU the Reader become a better lifehacker or more productive (Come on, how much of a lifehack is it to change your instant messenger? Puh-lease)

The core flaw with current productivity mindset is that it's so full of junkfood articles such as these that you actually agree with the anti-productivity article who thinks these productivity systems are flawed and aren't really being helpful because there are only a few passionate writers who make you feel passionate about productivity again because they're often times productivity "hoarders" or productivity "Digg" in blog form than productivity "trailblazers" and that's what many of these niche writers above are. They're so much into trailblazing their cause that they don't need to be close to the cream of the crop or close to become the expert, that everytime they write their articles, even though it isn't the world encompassing article that it is that when your internet connection is going to end tomorrow you can read this one article to know what the blog is about, it's so much more "signal than noise enough" that you can be frugal in reading these blogs and still feel like they have improved your life.

3) Community. Yes, there are lots of productivity communities. Yes, there are lots of nice productive and supportive people. BUT is there a DonationCoder forums for productivity?

Not to my knowledge, there isn't. Why do I say that?

Because unlike technology and software, there isn't enough passionate for productivity improvement people to make up a forum. Much less visiting the internet.

Instead, what we have is early birds who while passionate about productivity are also passionate about technologies and have the capabilities and productivity enough already to create interesting blogs and share their stuff and market them enough to gain notoriety.

Where does this leave the incapable but passionate for productivity people though? Nowhere.

We become critters in the sense that we don't have a place where we know if we type our thoughts out a community would legitimately be interested in improving all our thoughts and contributions that when the dust settles, it isn't the resident guru alone or the veteran hive's opinions that get considered but everyone's opinions was taken so much into account that you would even find people helping you organize it into one printer-friendly article to hand over to a poor classmate or to our poor "on a computer rental shop" selves to absorb and help us become more productive. We need our software and database and medium to incentivize a "Citizen Journalism for productivity" community but we don't have it in a large enough scale that all passionate productive people literally flock there without signing up for several forums because it has become a standard.

Why? Because internet contributors are still mostly influenced by capable technical people or incapable but willing to contribute people rather than a person who is a legitimate test dummy for what works and what doesn't in a productivity system. Then you mix it with people who aren't into improving on the kinks of productivity when it fails them and we're back to a pseudo-topic/technical forum where you're really just social networking rather than social conversing.



« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 05:48:17 AM by Paul Keith » Logged

<reserve space for the day DC can auto-generate your signature from your personal PopUp Wisdom quotes>
tomos
Charter Member
***
Posts: 8,049



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2009, 08:43:39 AM »

tomos, ok, here's an idea (did I interpret your post correctly?)
well, we are dc smiley
and you have as much say as I do (or anyone else) in what/how this will be run, especially I guess if you were to get involved in the organisation of it Wink

my problem with responding here is: I already spend too much time here in dc - so your very long posts tend to get put on my todo lists - and that means sometimes they get read, sometimes they're still waiting ... I'll print this one out & take it with me Wink
Any chance of a summary on those extra long posts Paul? (I suspect I mightn't be the only one to have a problem with the length of some e.g. here)
Logged

Tom
tomos
Charter Member
***
Posts: 8,049



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2009, 09:16:42 AM »

okay, I compromised & read it quickly
and I have no idea what you are saying re GOE 2009 - sounds to me almost like you're saying the idea is a waste of time ?

About the group thing, personally I reckon with productivity that really each person has to figure it out for themselves - I mean they can get help, ideas from others, but at the end of the day it's my head, my "things" (that need to get done) etc.

Have you read the ideas contributed earlier in this thread ?

P.S have you tried Mark Forsters AF list yet?
Logged

Tom
Paul Keith
Member
**
Posts: 1,965


see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2009, 09:36:26 AM »

Pre-second post reply:

Thanks tomos. The summary is the quote itself. I just expanded on the idea of the person I'm quoting and sometimes I add my own take and examples to give the reader more of my interpretation than just a mere copy-paste.

I'm sorry for getting you guys to read my long posts. I've really been trying to work on it and if you'll notice, I've added some images in my recent posts but it's just not working out that well. (based on the number of replies)

When superboyac pointed this out to me, I told him I do try to work around this by often putting the core points up top and letting the reader decide how far detailed they want to read without really forcing them to read the entire post to get the core of what I'm saying. Unfortunately as you pointed out, many seem to see the length and are just turned off by it.

I'm also at a dilemma because I don't want to over-simplify my post. The way I see it, there are already tons of short posts and rarely long posts and for me, it's really the long posts that I find really valuable since they're so rare to chance by.

I also rarely if never write a post I myself don't skim or read and I often find these kinds of posts short. (Especially considering how many productivity people could read an entire GTD book in one sitting. Yes, books and webpages are different but just the number of pages in that book compared to my post seem to balance both out in my opinion.)

At this point, I just don't know how to communicate my words. I'm thinking maybe writing a blog but I haven't gotten around to making one as I'm occupied with something else plus then I have to risk blogspamming since a starting blog doesn't get much audience. It's a real headache. I don't feel like I'm writing complex stuff but it seems many feel that way and I don't know how to tell them in shorter words. (or rather I do but I don't want to skimp out on the examples and details considering that's what I often found most valuable when reading forums and blogs and not the short "yeah, I agree" kind of posts)

Post-second post reply:

Yeah, I rarely reply to a topic I haven't read fully. I might've missed an idea here or there but I did read the entire post.

No, I'm not saying it's a waste of time. You said it's what I want to make out so as inspired by the quote, I thought: "Well... since there are tons of Productivity articles telling you to Stop! Organize! then Go! how about something that's revolved around the idea of Organize while you're Disorganized and just go, go, go." (Since many, especially poor people are like that. Case in point, you can't afford to read tons of productivity blogs and buy tons of books if you can only afford to rent a PC. Not to mention the security risks of checking your e-mail on a public PC.)

I haven't really tried Mark Forster's AF yet. I got the initial e-mail as to what to expect but I can't seem to find any link that points me to the actual system when I skimmed it just now. I might have to wait for another e-mail.


« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 09:41:24 AM by Paul Keith » Logged

<reserve space for the day DC can auto-generate your signature from your personal PopUp Wisdom quotes>
mouser
First Author
Administrator
*****
Posts: 32,643



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2009, 03:47:35 PM »

One of the things i agree with Paul about is that one should be wary of any big elaborate "System" constructed by one person with a book to sell or an infomercial promoting it.

Like diet fads and excercise devices, there is a huge incentive in such cases to try to make everything sound like its a brand new revolutionary system that must be taught to you by a single cult personality in order for you to gain the benefits.

On the other hand, I'm an old fashioned fan of books, and a belief that a single author with a book can communicate deeper more thought out ideas in a book than is possible in a blog post summarizing an idea you were discussing over dinner.  Both have their place.

As for productivity methods.. I guess i would put myself in the camp of people that believe that:
  • Its worth trying to be more productive
  • There are some fundamental universal ideas in productivity that if you understand you can work better and more efficiently, and that these are worth learning.
  • There is no one best method.  Different people work in different ways and that much of the game is finding the small tricks and techniques that help you work better in the style that you do your best work in already.
Logged
kwacky1
Supporting Member
**
Posts: 176



i am Cody's cousin

see users location on a map View Profile WWW Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2009, 05:13:13 AM »

Paul, I feel that your post represents the sentiments of the previous GOE's, based on what I've read about the previous GOE's so far.

I feel that the GOE is a frugal productivity system, it has a kind "bite off as much or as little as you want, no more, no less, we'll support you all the way"

Plus I feel the GOE addresses your 3rd point, community.  DC is already a community, yes it's primary purpose is software and software development, but there is so much more to this site than that (and I know I've hardly scratched the surface).  DC is full of sub communities, and I feel the GOE community is just a bunch of disorganised, disillusioned or disinterested people who aren't completely sold on the ideas of the 'trailblazers' and are looking deeper for something more.

For me, GOE seems to be about a journey of discovery, it's just another level of research.  I mean really, I wonder how many people took part in GOE, got organised and then got disorganised?  (Maybe they're following some Not GTD fad)

Hey, that would be cool, a Getting Disorganised Experiment.

Up until recently I was terminally disorganised.  I found a GTD system that works for me at work and am now looking for something that will help me outside of work (and yes I signed up for and am currently using, Autofocus).

Oh, and Paul, your posts are too long, but I do enjoy healthy discussion!   Thmbsup
Logged

mouser
First Author
Administrator
*****
Posts: 32,643



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2009, 05:01:48 PM »

I'd kind of like to see the new GOE offer a place where, among other things of course, members can try to invent new Productivity systems -- i think maybe we could have some fun trying to come up with new and unusual systems.
Logged
nudone
Cody's Creator
Moderator
*****
Posts: 4,116



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2009, 05:01:59 AM »

i propose we try the "works for 2 months system". this consists of defining a set of rules, doesn't really matter what they are, and then you carry them out.

it'll work just as well as any other system that's out there, i.e. it'll work whilst you are engaged and believe in it, then after about 2 months you'll find it less and less effective, eventually you'll abandon it and declare that the system just isn't good enough.

at this point the "works for 2 months system" goes to its next stage. this is where you completely reinvent the system's rules. the process starts all over again - it works for 2 months whilst you feel enthusiastic and believe in the new rule set.

caveats:
  • you have to believe it's the "works for 2 months system" that's making you productive, NOT simply the fact that you are making an effort each day to do the "right thing".
  • you have to follow the rules of the system, well, a little. well, maybe just when you feel like it.

sorry for sounding cynical.
Logged
Paul Keith
Member
**
Posts: 1,965


see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2009, 04:12:25 PM »

Hmm...is it possible to have three GOE themes in 1 GOE?

I think you guys all have ideas that supplement each other.

kwacky1's GDE could easily allow for guinea pigs err... testers  tongue of mouser's "Invent new Productivity System" idea which can be tested by users willing to follow nudone's "works for 2 months" idea which can be expanded into a productivity guidelines idea that call for testers to follow a set guideline to "blind" test the "created" productivity systems.

I think it's a great theme for this year's GOE with the only problem being of motivation where most users might not feel like creating a system and offer it for free (literally see lots of Mark Forsters' fans complaining of how he is giving AF for free in their forum) while others might not feel motivated enough to have their specific systems be criticized and lambasted with flaws.

Another issue is the risk of having one small subset of productivity system users completely taking over the subforums and end up steering the experiment to their way of thinking. An example would be how GTD fanboys might complain of how a program isn't exactly optimized for that system which forces the program to host a GTD hack or even force the developer to focus on that area. Imagine how much more this issue will rise with an actual productivity system in development as opposed to just a single productivity software.

DC might get people who would complain if a system inventor didn't factor in weekly reviews or contexts or even the reverse: people might be too afraid of scrutinizing and hurting the inventor's feelings that they don't even try to compare the different systems.

Oh and nudone, nah. You're not cynical. Cynical would be to set a standard where a working system should be able to organize and read an entire delicious bookmark list or a volume readers' entire constantly growing "to buy and read" list on shorter or of equal time than the original collector has using their own money and resources to gather and read those stuff. (Which would be my minimal standard for an effective system.)
Logged

<reserve space for the day DC can auto-generate your signature from your personal PopUp Wisdom quotes>
Paul Keith
Member
**
Posts: 1,965


see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2009, 04:39:52 PM »

Note: This is more of a direct reply to kwacky1's post. I'm starting to re-consider superboyac's advise of cutting my post up and doing it seldomly rather than often. Not so much to cut my posts into little bits but to try and separate various contexts.

Paul, I feel that your post represents the sentiments of the previous GOE's, based on what I've read about the previous GOE's so far.

I feel that the GOE is a frugal productivity system, it has a kind "bite off as much or as little as you want, no more, no less, we'll support you all the way"

Plus I feel the GOE addresses your 3rd point, community.  DC is already a community, yes it's primary purpose is software and software development, but there is so much more to this site than that (and I know I've hardly scratched the surface).  DC is full of sub communities, and I feel the GOE community is just a bunch of disorganised, disillusioned or disinterested people who aren't completely sold on the ideas of the 'trailblazers' and are looking deeper for something more.

For me, GOE seems to be about a journey of discovery, it's just another level of research.  I mean really, I wonder how many people took part in GOE, got organised and then got disorganised?  (Maybe they're following some Not GTD fad)

Hey, that would be cool, a Getting Disorganised Experiment.

Up until recently I was terminally disorganised.  I found a GTD system that works for me at work and am now looking for something that will help me outside of work (and yes I signed up for and am currently using, Autofocus).

Oh, and Paul, your posts are too long, but I do enjoy healthy discussion!   Thmbsup

Thanks for sharing your impression with the previous GOE. I wasn't really here then and didn't know what people thought of it.

I think while DC is a community full of sub-communities, it is still limited in the sense that at it's core, it's still a tech community. This isn't meant to insult the type of community mouser allowed for and nurtured. I do get what you're saying. I just think that often times, core audience still has lots of "pull" into how a topic, even ones made by a sub-community, are supposed to go.

This is why I think a general productivity forum on the level of DC is still much more beneficial than DC having a productivity subforum. This isn't to say that the latter won't be very helpful. It's just that the latter won't have as much pull as an actual forum where people don't just think of going there for productivity, but people literally flock there to systematically both improve and criticize each system to the point that new comers searching for a productivity forum won't be led to blogs like lifehacker or specific forums like Allen's or Forster's where people tend to support the inventor rather than address topics in ways that might even go against the current idol's system. See topics like these for example which pop out in Forster's forum when LH advertised AutoFocus which shows how even a prominent trailblazer's forum can be closed off to the demands of these newer less-wowed users whose voices are only made apparent when a sudden paradigm shift happens where tons of casual users who aren't emotionally attached to the system all write rude, non-detailed, pass me by posts in the actual forum. (and I'd argue by then it would be too late as that community might have been traumatized already to the point of shunning any poster's opinion that might seem in line with those threads no matter how sincere or detailed future "devil's advocate" posters might be.)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 04:43:33 PM by Paul Keith » Logged

<reserve space for the day DC can auto-generate your signature from your personal PopUp Wisdom quotes>
app103
That scary taskbar girl
Global Moderator
*****
Posts: 5,017



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2009, 12:29:11 PM »

I have learned something from experience, and the process of learning it has come at a very heavy price...

I once thought I wasn't all that productive and that I could benefit from a productivity system of some sort, and agreed to participate in the first GOE here on the forum.

Each & every system presented, left me with a confused look on my face, as they weren't geared towards how I live my life. I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to be doing. For example, GTD has some @phone crap that doesn't apply to people like me that avoid phones and maybe makes 2 calls a year! And they all either make a distinction between work life & home life, or are only geared towards one of them, ignoring the other. And I don't make that distinction or seperation in my life. Or they assume that the area you need to be more productive in, is in a corporate office setting. Or they assume you have disposable income to blow on "productivity crap", which they insist that you can't be productive without. (none of these systems recycle envelopes from junk mail for your todo lists, or use empty ramen cases for your inbox)

And then they wanted me to over-think things, over-plan things, and think about things I didn't want to think about. Why do I have to plan where I want my career to be 10 years from now in order to get the dishes done today? Why do I need to have well defined long term goals, and have them written down? Is this so I can be disappointed in myself if my life takes a change in direction or doesn't go as planned?

None of the productivity gurus believe in "organized chaos".

The end result was that these systems destroyed my productivity and left me feeling very seriously depressed about my life. I was lucky to have survived. I felt worthless. I was borderline suicidal.

I haven't been able to fully recover from it.

But this is what I learned:

I already was quite productive before all of this and I didn't need any help being that way. I had my own productivity system that was perfect for me, and it worked better than anything anybody else has ever come up with, written about, blogged about, or talked about. This system was a part of who I was and something I did on pure instinct. And it was frugal (just like me) and cost me $0 in the way of supplies, tools, books, and software.

Now if I could only figure out how I used to do it, I could return to my highly productive life that I used to have, regain my self-esteem, my purpose, and be a much happier person.

I thought about taking notes related to my journey back to my former self, with the intention of writing my own book on how to be productive (and happy), but then it dawned on me...

If I did, the system wouldn't work for anyone else but me, and it's quite likely that I would screw up other people as badly as other people's productivity systems screwed me up.

I know I am not alone. I know there has to be other people that were destroyed by all the productivity crap, like I was.

Here is my best advice:

Stay away from other people's productivity systems that were designed to work for them, how they think, and how they live their lives. Stay away from productivity systems designed to line the pockets of their creators...writers that create a new system when they start running low on cash. Stay away from productivity systems designed to increase traffic and sell ad space on blogs that publish the system. Stay away from productivity systems that come with magical mops. (nudone's "works for 2 months system" is nothing but magical mops)

Just don't do it....

Just do it.

Look into yourself and draw from that, the system you already know from instinct. Following anyone else's system will destroy that part of you that already knows how to be productive. It will take away your instinct. You already know what you have to do. You already know how to do it. You know where your strengths & weaknesses are. You know how to fix it. You don't need anyone else to tell you.
Logged

mouser
First Author
Administrator
*****
Posts: 32,643



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2009, 12:56:37 PM »

app,

i didn't realize you had such a bad experience with the GOE.. i knew it didn't help you but didn't realize it caused so much damage.

perhaps part of the problem was that these systems make it seem like they are right for everyone and if they don't work for you then there must be something wrong with you; and therefore they set up expectations that are unrealistic.

do you think it wouldn't have been such a bad experience if you had just gone into it thinking "let me try this idea and see if it has any value to me or not?".. or was there something inherent in just learning about or trying these approaches that threw you off your stride so dramatically.  i guess what i'm trying to get at is if you think merely learning about and trying to follow any of these approaches will somehow doing lasting damage to a person's productivity.

as many people here know (as it's been made fun of plenty of times) i have taken away some ideas from these systems and formulated by own system of index cards which i have found extremely useful.  so for me learning about these systems has been a good thing, but i never went into it expecting a miracle or expecting to slavishly follow their rules, only to survey the field.
Logged
app103
That scary taskbar girl
Global Moderator
*****
Posts: 5,017



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2009, 04:06:28 PM »

Mouser, did you actually try any of these systems? Or did you just go shopping for tools from within them, skipping over the bulk of what they contained?

I think what I did was take apart something that wasn't broken and tried to fix it, because I didn't realize it wasn't broken. And we all know what happens when you do that.

And what I was trying to fix was something the "experts" swear should never have worked in the first place.

I can't remember which comedian it was that told the story about a kid that was capable of the impossible and could ride his bicycle on the edge of a fence, because he hadn't learned about gravity yet. As soon as someone told the kid why it was impossible for him to do that and taught him what gravity was, the kid could no longer ride his bicycle on the edge of the fence.

That's kind of what happened to me.

as many people here know (as it's been made fun of plenty of times) i have taken away some ideas from these systems and formulated by own system of index cards which i have found extremely useful. 

Technically, you came up with that yourself, on day 1, before we officially got started. I think you just instinctively knew that would work for you, while you were out shopping. I think you could have quit at that point and not been any less productive than when the whole GOE was over. So without having to go through any of this again, you can come up with something else that works for yourself, just like before,

Like I said...you already know how to do it. You don't need anyone else to tell you.
Logged

Paul Keith
Member
**
Posts: 1,965


see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2009, 05:11:23 PM »

Quote from: app103
For example, GTD has some @phone crap that doesn't apply to people like me that avoid phones and maybe makes 2 calls a year! And they all either make a distinction between work life & home life, or are only geared towards one of them, ignoring the other. And I don't make that distinction or seperation in my life. Or they assume that the area you need to be more productive in, is in a corporate office setting. Or they assume you have disposable income to blow on "productivity crap", which they insist that you can't be productive without. (none of these systems recycle envelopes from junk mail for your todo lists, or use empty ramen cases for your inbox)

app103, you're not alone in this.

In case, you missed it, I've written a post here (in DC, forgot where) that says I'm not a GTD fan at all and I'm just pointing this out here just so you would know cause what I'm about to tell you may make it sound like I'm a GTD fanboy.

-----------------------Warning! Long Post Ahead-----------------------------------

Note: The core idea is to use my experiences to justify why I both agree and disagree with app. Everything else is just details that's ideally written to address her post. No additional new GOE related post below. If you're only interested in new GOE suggestions, please skip the rest of this current post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That @phone thing? One major reason why I complain about a lack of DC-level productivity-centric forum.

10 times out of 10 that goddamn context thing gave me a headache and if I had any 1337 hacking skills. I'd go to the trouble of deleting all those @symbols to any of those goddamn GTD hacking tweaks be they software or paperware and for awhile I thought David Allen thought the same way as those people who thought GTD was all about putting @ symbols in your to do lists.

...until I actually heard the actual explanation from David Allen's own mouth (Warning! Torrent link).

I know I really should've read Allen's actual books especially when I don't mind downloading via p2p but even though money wasn't an issue because of this, time wasted was and from what I read of many people who've commented on GTD, they all said the book was too complicated and even GTD fanatics went on to praise the then hyped as simplified GTD alternative: ZTD (which I found to be more complicated, more jumbled than GTD personally) and then I've tested enough GTD services and software that I thought I got what GTD was without reading the book but it turns out:

All that @ context mumbo jumbo was exactly that! Mumbo jumbo. The only thing Allen contributed to that @ crap was say that you can preferably use the symbol @ as a way to give you a symbol to "get" that this was your "folder" if you want to.

Never said anything about requiring you to separate work from life from school from sex. Nada.

All David's point is that if you know what you can and can't do in this current timeframe, you are going to become less stressed out because you know what you can drop from your mind. (Ironically this is also the core of many other productivity systems like Forster's AutoFocus IMO)

You don't need to be in a concrete and specific place. You don't need to be @bathroom to check the "Remember to poop" entry on your to-do list. Simply put, you're not only supposed to not overplan, Allen's view point is that you SHOULDN'T overplan at all.

That's the problem when many fanboys hijack a person's system, ESPECIALLY if many of these people are already part of a subgroup called "planner" fanatics who already have it set in their minds that it's about the tools and not the system so when they do buy into a system, the system gets over-simplified into their tools and that's not a bad thing. At the end of the day, if it works for them. Go ahead.

The bad thing?

Don't expect them to tell/expand/explain how the system actually works. Do expect them to tell you how they imported/modified/hacked their tools to make the system work for them. Often times at the price of further giving you an un-optimized junk that requires a lot of luck on your part to get, no more different than a group of Linux fanboys telling you to RTFM...only this time, they actually hand you and walk you through the manual...at the price that it's already in a foreign language that their productivity Gods handed down to them and got spread from word of mouth to you the lost sheep.

That is why that Moleskine? Allen never supported it outside of saying GTD can be applicable to many systems (both low-tech and high-tech) so it's more like a PC way of saying "If it works for you, great then."

I don't even recall any productivity guru literally basing a productivity system around their Moleskines and if they do, that's certainly not what many followers are basing their love of Moleskines on. If anything, the Moleskine people applied the system to their notebooks and some popular blogs advertised these notebooks as a "must help" New Age Magical Mop that's just a more "real item" variation than a metaphor.

In fact you know what Allen often advises as his basic item for taking notes? Trashcan.

Yes, just write it down. Crumple it. Throw it. "In-Basket" Brain "Dump" not... Brain "Buy Expensive Notebook, then write down Notes, then open XP, then use <x> software, then Print it out, then go to the bathroom and take an actual Dump."

That's why he advises that context thing.

You're not supposed to make contexts for stuff you can put in your organizer.

What it does is give you that "Aha!" moment to not get stressed out about stuff you currently are unable to do. For example, if the power's out and your computer's down, no matter how you stress over that report you need to write in your Word Processor. Won't happen so what do you do? "He" writes it under @computer. Not you. He.

The general concept though isn't about the symbol @ or where you are. It's about not getting stressed over stuff that you know you can't do now so that you can focus on the stuff you can do now. That's also where all that long term goals come in. You're not supposed to be required to write them down. You're only supposed to write them down when you want to write them down but don't know where to place them.

Why? Cause if the power's out and you can't use MS Word and you're an artist. Wouldn't you for example want a system that reminds you that you can pick up a pencil and paper and draw something you love then worry and fuss and waste time complaining how the power's out? or even go out, have a lunch, go on a mindless date, chat with a stranger, find inspiration for your report than waste time sulking at home hoping that that goddamn piece of electronic box would somehow miraculously open up? No paper. No to-do list. No moleskine. Simply a productivity system based around "Getting Things Done".
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 12:15:11 PM by Paul Keith » Logged

<reserve space for the day DC can auto-generate your signature from your personal PopUp Wisdom quotes>
kwacky1
Supporting Member
**
Posts: 176



i am Cody's cousin

see users location on a map View Profile WWW Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2009, 05:11:28 PM »

Great Post Paul  Thmbsup
Logged

kwacky1
Supporting Member
**
Posts: 176



i am Cody's cousin

see users location on a map View Profile WWW Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2009, 05:55:24 PM »

There is definately no one size fits all productivity system and neither should there be.

App, I think you hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that Mouser came up with a system that works for him on day 1, I too had noticed that and already he's made the comment that he want's to 'take it to the next level', whatever that is.

I think the beauty of the GOE 2006/2007 experiements was learning about people's adaptations of other people's productivity systems, and maybe this should have been promoted more or the actual purpose of the GOE, in reality it seems to have been an accidental by-product.

For me, the idea of getting organised is appealling, but I'm very cycnical of a system, especially one you have to pay for, because I'm reasonably certain it's not going to work for me.  It's the same reason I look to freeware/donationware applications or full featured trial versions.

edit: typos
 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 07:29:37 AM by kwacky1 » Logged

mouser
First Author
Administrator
*****
Posts: 32,643



see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2009, 10:09:52 PM »

I'm starting to get interested in the next GOE.. can we formally agree to hold it during April or May 2009, whatever form it will take?

I'll set up a new forum section for it and we can find a volunteer or two to spearhead it.
Logged
Paul Keith
Member
**
Posts: 1,965


see users location on a map View Profile WWW Read user's biography. Give some DonationCredits to this forum member
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2009, 08:53:59 AM »

Well, I wasn't in any of the ones before so I don't really mind the date.
Logged

<reserve space for the day DC can auto-generate your signature from your personal PopUp Wisdom quotes>
Pages: Prev 1 [2]   Go Up
  Reply  |  New Topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
   Forum Home   Thread Marks Chat! Downloads Search Login Register  

DonationCoder.com | About Us
DonationCoder.com Forum | Powered by SMF
[ Page time: 0.074s | Server load: 0.02 ]