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Last post Author Topic: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?  (Read 6567 times)

Stephen66515

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Something I have often thought about, is the sheer amount of power that could be obtained by grouping together all of the Developers and Designers here at DonationCoder...Now...What could we achieve if everybody got together on ONE HUGE PROJECT?

Could we create some massive game?  Some huge Software release?

I don't know...but you might!

What do you think we could all hypothetically make as a collective?

 :D

40hz

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2014, 06:58:48 PM »
Perhaps roast one of those giant Japanese hornets with our body heat? ;) (kidding...just kidding...)

app103

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2014, 07:32:45 PM »
We might accomplish DoCo 2.0, or perhaps not.  :-[

We'd probably accomplish too many opinions, too much discussing, and no actual decisions that are actionable by anyone. Comparable to the development of any of a number of famous vaporware projects.

In a nutshell, we'd have to bring in an outside project manager, highly experienced in dealing with large groups of fiercely independent personalities, to have any hope of getting the project off the ground. Otherwise, we will just all run around doing our own thing, waiting for someone to tell us what needs to be done and what our part in it will be.

I am sorry that I am not kidding. Just being realistic.

wraith808

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2014, 07:35:46 PM »
^ That is a sadly correct assessment.

superboyac

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 08:18:14 PM »
I occasionally have the unrealistic fantasy that groups like this one can put together a project that would provide incomes for the members who participate.  Sort of like using our talents/passions/skills to free us from perhaps our normal methods of making a living, which may be less than satisfying.  But these kinds of ideas never seem to really take off, and instead turn into soon to be abandoned open source projects.

I would be very interested if any such project was able to generate additional income for participants in a good way.

Stephen66515

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2014, 09:45:04 PM »
I occasionally have the unrealistic fantasy that groups like this one can put together a project that would provide incomes for the members who participate.  Sort of like using our talents/passions/skills to free us from perhaps our normal methods of making a living, which may be less than satisfying.  But these kinds of ideas never seem to really take off, and instead turn into soon to be abandoned open source projects.

I would be very interested if any such project was able to generate additional income for participants in a good way.

I think the way to do it would be to treat it like a business, rather than a project.  What I mean by this is:

  • Come up with an idea
  • Write a business plan/proposition
  • "Hire" Core Members and set out their tasks as you would in business (CEO, CFO, COO, Advertising etc)
  • Run the project as a business as much as possible

I think doing it that way would give everybody a definitive thing to work on and there would be no ambiguity as to who is doing what, when they are doing it, and why they are doing it.

Obviously...for a group like DonationCoder, that business would have to be something like Software Development & Sales - But there much be other possibilities?  :huh:

wraith808

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014, 10:02:17 PM »
App said the bit about DC 2.0 for a reason.  Seems like if anything could muster the troops, it would be that.  And with such a dated look, it should be that.  But... here we are.

Stephen66515

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 10:09:50 PM »
App said the bit about DC 2.0 for a reason.  Seems like if anything could muster the troops, it would be that.  And with such a dated look, it should be that.  But... here we are.

Oops, I missed Apps post.

We might accomplish DoCo 2.0, or perhaps not.  :-[

We'd probably accomplish too many opinions, too much discussing, and no actual decisions that are actionable by anyone. Comparable to the development of any of a number of famous vaporware projects.

In a nutshell, we'd have to bring in an outside project manager, highly experienced in dealing with large groups of fiercely independent personalities, to have any hope of getting the project off the ground. Otherwise, we will just all run around doing our own thing, waiting for someone to tell us what needs to be done and what our part in it will be.

I am sorry that I am not kidding. Just being realistic.

It;s not really a bad thing to agree with you there to be honest...and if I am honest...that makes more sense than anything I have ever said/thought on the subject. +1  :Thmbsup:

J-Mac

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014, 10:31:38 PM »
I remember a few years back someone here suggested creating a software group on a relatively new social network called "Facebook".   :P  Actually that is exactly when I joined that soulless network. Unfortunately, after forming the group we never did do anything.   :(

Do you all (who originally joined that group) remember?

Jim

app103

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2014, 03:14:56 AM »
Do you all (who originally joined that group) remember?

Yes, I do...and I remember the one on Flickr, too...and maybe a few other places. We don't seem to do so well as a group, when we wander away from home (this forum).

mouser

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2014, 07:40:26 AM »
I've been thinking off and on about Doco2 for quite some time now.. Some of those ideas are solidifying (using Mewlo as the foundation) while others remain in flux..  If people are interested what I could do is write up 5-10 pages on what I think it would look like -- a proposal of sorts.

MilesAhead

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2014, 08:21:24 AM »
I occasionally have the unrealistic fantasy that groups like this one can put together a project that would provide incomes for the members who participate.  Sort of like using our talents/passions/skills to free us from perhaps our normal methods of making a living, which may be less than satisfying.  But these kinds of ideas never seem to really take off, and instead turn into soon to be abandoned open source projects.

I would be very interested if any such project was able to generate additional income for participants in a good way.

That concept seems attractive.  I've never participated in anything like that where the "workers" for want of a better term, started the "company."  Therefore I have no idea how it would be funded.  Who would want to invest and why etc..

I figure I have about zero chance of a hire in the IT industry if I am to believe all that about an IT guy over 30 being over the hill.  But I have to wonder how something could be set in motion on a paid basis.  IOW people performing tasks at some salary and perhaps some incentive if there is a "profit" involved at some point.  Otherwise if it is along the lines of "let's start making something and hope we can sell it" then I think it will end up being unpaid effort shortly abandoned.  The Super Group Blind Faith at least produced one album before they expired.  :)

40hz

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2014, 08:29:37 AM »
Overall, this is probably one of the most depressing threads I've read in a long time.  :(

I'm not a coder. But I am a musician. And if musicians (as a collective) can routinely gather "fiercely independent personalities" (including the occasional hyper-talented albeit bona fide sociopath) to collaborate on artistically valid, and financially remunerative projects...I'm wondering why coders can't do the same?

Is this 'problem' real? Or is it just something coders have programmed themselves to believe? :huh:

wraith808

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2014, 09:37:44 AM »
Is this 'problem' real? Or is it just something coders have programmed themselves to believe?

There is a difference, I think.  

From my experience, in the case of musicians, because of the creative and instinctual nature, and the very real underlying rules of rhythm and music theory, you start with that basis and move on from it.  It can be a painful process with independent personalities and such- but there is very real common ground.

With development, that foundation has to be laid.  A bad design and bad architecture can kill an entire project from the beginning... but it spends a lot of time and energy in dying.  It's not for a lack of wanting to, and I think there is nothing bad in trying.  But there really needs to be a guiding force or somethings laid out from the beginning that are not likely to be.

Look at the coding jams and such- they're more gimmicky than anything, producing things, but none of them being really lucrative or even finished.  Sometimes they are the building blocks of something else to come along later.  But more often, they are forgotten, swept aside, and never reach fruition.

For programming projects, more than music, there are roles for a reason, as much as I hate the structure.  You need a champion/project owner that has the vision that people submit to... and everything is measured against that vision- and you have his development side- the architect/designer.  Then the project managers that keep it rolling along.  I always like to separate testing from anything else... but some disagree on that point too.  Then user acceptance... which goes back to the project owner.  As much as I hate it... it works.  And without it, I've seen commercial projects fail terribly.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 09:45:06 AM by wraith808 »

40hz

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2014, 10:53:34 AM »
You need a champion/project owner that has the vision that people submit to... and everything is measured against that vision- and you have his development side- the architect/designer.

Interesting...

I never realized coding projects invariably need an 'overlord' to get them to work. Or that every project needed to start from a completely bank page if I understand you correctly. Seems almost inefficient by design.

I always thought there were enough coding standards, documented "best practices" and development models that, by now, the days of starting with a a completely empty whiteboard wasn't a given. But I'm not a coder. The few real dev projects I was involved with go back before "objects" and the web. They involved several individuals, and getting everybody on the same page wasn't a challenge. We knew what needed to be done, what the deadlines were, who was best qualified for which roles and pieces, and it went from there to successful conclusions.

Apparently things have changed somewhat over the years. (Read Tracy Kidder's book Soul of a New Machine for a good write-up of how things worked back in the day.) Today it seems more like people are jockeying for who's gonna be (resentfully) acknowledged as "Chief Pecker" in the neighborhood boy's club than anything else.



But maybe that's just me looking at it from the perspective of a former insider who is now an outsider? :huh:


wraith808

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2014, 12:17:34 PM »
I always thought there were enough coding standards, documented "best practices" and development models that, by now, the days of starting with a a completely empty whiteboard wasn't a given. But I'm not a coder. The few real dev projects I was involved with go back before "objects" and the web. They involved several individuals, and getting everybody on the same page wasn't a challenge. We knew what needed to be done, what the deadlines were, who was best qualified for which roles and pieces, and it went from there to successful conclusions.

It's not a blank page.  You do reuse.  But what do you reuse?  What coding standards do you use?  VCS can be a big enough hurdle to get across as people see the differences as religions.  It is a very real application of Sayre's Law, i.e. the discussions are so heated because the stakes are so small.

First question.  What do we build?  If you get past that... what language do we build it in?  What framework do we use?  What about third party libraries?  What license?

If you don't have a product owner and architect to give the final answer to those questions- any of them can derail the project.  And do you need it for everything?  No.  But the larger the group of participants, the more likely it is to get derailed without it.

There is also another discussion when dealing with such- that's investment vs involvement.  You need to have someone invested in the project- or those merely involved can really derail a project.

Again, all of these things are not necessary... but the larger the project you get, the more likely it is to fail without it.  And if we're talking about every coder on DC, that's a pretty larger project.  Just looking at it realistically.

Hell, look at the recent CommonMark fiasco.  People take the slightest thing badly, and can't really be professionals and moderate decisions as much as they must choose a side and wage war over it.  It's not just politics and religion anymore.  Any discussion can degenerate... and we have those on DC.  So discussions during a project- if things are not decided up front, can easily degenerate into just another development fiasco, as so many have been.

superboyac

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2014, 04:04:41 PM »
Overall, this is probably one of the most depressing threads I've read in a long time.  :(

I'm not a coder. But I am a musician. And if musicians (as a collective) can routinely gather "fiercely independent personalities" (including the occasional hyper-talented albeit bona fide sociopath) to collaborate on artistically valid, and financially remunerative projects...I'm wondering why coders can't do the same?

Is this 'problem' real? Or is it just something coders have programmed themselves to believe? :huh:
ok yes, you're right.  Let's do this!  Whatever the project is, DC 2.0 sounds great, I'd love to be a part of it.

app103

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2014, 09:51:35 AM »
Overall, this is probably one of the most depressing threads I've read in a long time.  :(

I'm not a coder. But I am a musician. And if musicians (as a collective) can routinely gather "fiercely independent personalities" (including the occasional hyper-talented albeit bona fide sociopath) to collaborate on artistically valid, and financially remunerative projects...I'm wondering why coders can't do the same?

Is this 'problem' real? Or is it just something coders have programmed themselves to believe? :huh:

I wasn't speaking about developers in general. I was speaking about here and from experience.

Check the date on this post and read through that thread: http://www.donationc...ex.php?topic=25932.0

That thread was started after a discussion in the IRC channel, and mouser suggested I post about it and get some input from the community.

Almost 3.5 years later and I am sitting here with the feeling that I should have just gone ahead and done it, and handed it to mouser. And it still bothers me enough that I am considering just doing it and calling it my NANY project for this year.  :(

And I don't care if it ends up only being used for a few months, or ultimately, a few years.

So, it's not that there isn't a desire to contribute, and not that we don't want to work together. Some of us are still waiting for their assignments, have sat by and watched someone else end up with the assignment they were best suited for, watched that person eventually abandon the project, and are getting the feeling that they are never going to be taken seriously, and are trying really hard not to take it personally and feel insulted by it.

Is that how big projects get done? Obviously not, if 3.5 years later we still don't have a DoCo 2.0 or at the very least, a proper software repository.

40hz

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2014, 04:04:02 PM »

Almost 3.5 years later and I am sitting here with the feeling that I should have just gone ahead and done it, and handed it to mouser. And it still bothers me enough that I am considering just doing it and calling it my NANY project for this year.  :(


Sounds like a plan! And why not?  :Thmbsup:

Stephen66515

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2014, 04:24:35 PM »
Overall, this is probably one of the most depressing threads I've read in a long time.  :(

I'm not a coder. But I am a musician. And if musicians (as a collective) can routinely gather "fiercely independent personalities" (including the occasional hyper-talented albeit bona fide sociopath) to collaborate on artistically valid, and financially remunerative projects...I'm wondering why coders can't do the same?

Is this 'problem' real? Or is it just something coders have programmed themselves to believe? :huh:

I wasn't speaking about developers in general. I was speaking about here and from experience.

Check the date on this post and read through that thread: http://www.donationc...ex.php?topic=25932.0

That thread was started after a discussion in the IRC channel, and mouser suggested I post about it and get some input from the community.

Almost 3.5 years later and I am sitting here with the feeling that I should have just gone ahead and done it, and handed it to mouser. And it still bothers me enough that I am considering just doing it and calling it my NANY project for this year.  :(

And I don't care if it ends up only being used for a few months, or ultimately, a few years.

So, it's not that there isn't a desire to contribute, and not that we don't want to work together. Some of us are still waiting for their assignments, have sat by and watched someone else end up with the assignment they were best suited for, watched that person eventually abandon the project, and are getting the feeling that they are never going to be taken seriously, and are trying really hard not to take it personally and feel insulted by it.

Is that how big projects get done? Obviously not, if 3.5 years later we still don't have a DoCo 2.0 or at the very least, a proper software repository.

Do it!

wraith808

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2014, 06:44:15 PM »

Almost 3.5 years later and I am sitting here with the feeling that I should have just gone ahead and done it, and handed it to mouser. And it still bothers me enough that I am considering just doing it and calling it my NANY project for this year.  :(


Sounds like a plan! And why not?  :Thmbsup:

I can tell you why not... it's not her site.  That's just one reason that I'd think of if it was me.  But I think that's the big one that's been holding her back if you look between the lines.

Stephen66515

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2014, 06:48:36 PM »

Almost 3.5 years later and I am sitting here with the feeling that I should have just gone ahead and done it, and handed it to mouser. And it still bothers me enough that I am considering just doing it and calling it my NANY project for this year.  :(


Sounds like a plan! And why not?  :Thmbsup:

I can tell you why not... it's not her site.  That's just one reason that I'd think of if it was me.  But I think that's the big one that's been holding her back if you look between the lines.

Actually, as far as I am aware, there are other mitigating reasons that have held her and many others back from doing something like this.

Not being her site wouldn't make much difference as I don't think any of us really see DC as "This is mousers website...that's it"...more of a community project.  DC is now, and will always be "Crowd Funded" in the sense that without the supporters, DC wouldn't be anything like it is...I know mousers Software does bring in the greater majority of users...but without the community...this whole site would be just based around those, and be a support forum for mouser's Software instead of what it really is.

Just my  :two:

wraith808

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2014, 07:02:26 PM »
What I mean is that it would be hard for someone without mouser's approval to make wholesale changes to the site.  And this would be pretty much a wholesale change.  He's also on the line as a pig, whereas we're all chickens.  I try to always keep that in mind with anything for the site... I might disagree, but I'm not the one on the hook when it comes down to it.

Just my  :two:

Stephen66515

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2014, 08:23:25 PM »
What I mean is that it would be hard for someone without mouser's approval to make wholesale changes to the site.  And this would be pretty much a wholesale change.  He's also on the line as a pig, whereas we're all chickens.  I try to always keep that in mind with anything for the site... I might disagree, but I'm not the one on the hook when it comes down to it.

Just my  :two:

I do get what you are saying, and yes...the decision ultimately comes down to mouser.  However, App could create some sort of service like the wanted to and host it separately to DC.  I know it wouldn't be the ideal solution...but something like that would be easier to implement as it would not require mouser to intervene any further than (possibly) giving approval.

Site wide changes for a website of this structure and scale are never going to please everybody...you only have to look at what happens every time Facebook make a change to their UI...people bitch, moan, and within 2 days, completely forget anything happened  ;D

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Re: (Hypothetical): If DC Grouped Together...What could be achieved?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2014, 08:46:09 PM »

Almost 3.5 years later and I am sitting here with the feeling that I should have just gone ahead and done it, and handed it to mouser. And it still bothers me enough that I am considering just doing it and calling it my NANY project for this year.  :(


Sounds like a plan! And why not?  :Thmbsup:

I can tell you why not... it's not her site.  That's just one reason that I'd think of if it was me.  But I think that's the big one that's been holding her back if you look between the lines.

@Wraith - I don't see how submitting a software repository project as a NANY entry steps on anybody's toes or needs anybody's permission. There's nothing to say it has to be deployed at DoCo. I'm sure it could find an audience outside of this website regardless of whether or not it finds a home here.

Just sayin' :)