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Last post Author Topic: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox  (Read 6503 times)

Tinman57

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Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« on: March 27, 2013, 05:09:41 PM »
Ad industry threatens Firefox users with more ads if Mozilla moves on tracking plans

03.25.2013 12:00 PM

Quote
The online ad industry attacked Mozilla over its decision to block third-party cookies in a future release of Firefox, calling the move "dangerous and highly disturbing," and claiming that it will result in more ads shown to users.

http://www.pcworld.c...-tracking-plans.html

SeraphimLabs

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 05:15:58 PM »
All that will do is increase the popularity of adblockers. 

These people need to realize they can't win. The users will have their way.

Renegade

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 07:19:30 PM »
Good on them at Mozilla!  :Thmbsup:

From the article:

Quote
"If Mozilla follows through on its plan ... the disruption will disenfranchise every single Internet user," said Randall Rothenberg, president and CEO of the IAB, in his post. "All of us will lose the freedom to choose our own online experiences; we will lose the opportunity to monitor and protect our privacy; and we will lose the chance to benefit from independent sites ... because thousands of small businesses that make up the diversity of content and services online will be forced to close their doors."

Oh sweet Jesus... Is he really THAT deluded?
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Tinman57

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 08:17:41 PM »
Good on them at Mozilla!  :Thmbsup:

From the article:

Quote
"If Mozilla follows through on its plan ... the disruption will disenfranchise every single Internet user," said Randall Rothenberg, president and CEO of the IAB, in his post. "All of us will lose the freedom to choose our own online experiences; we will lose the opportunity to monitor and protect our privacy; and we will lose the chance to benefit from independent sites ... because thousands of small businesses that make up the diversity of content and services online will be forced to close their doors."

Oh sweet Jesus... Is he really THAT deluded?

  I just wonder if he is that much off his rocker or if he's just trying to use FUD against Firefox users.....  Either way, he's only fooling himself....

Renegade

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 08:56:50 PM »
  I just wonder if he is that much off his rocker or if he's just trying to use FUD against Firefox users..... 

I really, really wonder about this very often. He's just one example of some guy with a clear conflict of interest spouting complete lunacy. Do these kinds of people REALLY believe what they're saying? Or are they simply morally bankrupt?

To be honest, I think a lot of these people really and truly believe that up is down and ignorance is strength. And then I really and truly wonder how they managed to deceive themselves into believing stuff like that. Can you lie to yourself over and over until you believe the lie?
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

AndyM

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 09:02:25 PM »
Quote
Can you lie to yourself over and over until you believe the lie?
Sure, you see it all the time.  And with a little motivation it doesn't always take a lot of "over and over".

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 10:38:08 PM »
 I just wonder if he is that much off his rocker or if he's just trying to use FUD against Firefox users.....  

I really, really wonder about this very often. He's just one example of some guy with a clear conflict of interest spouting complete lunacy. Do these kinds of people REALLY believe what they're saying? Or are they simply morally bankrupt?

To be honest, I think a lot of these people really and truly believe that up is down and ignorance is strength. And then I really and truly wonder how they managed to deceive themselves into believing stuff like that. Can you lie to yourself over and over until you believe the lie?

I came up with a theme some time ago for some of this stuff. The key principle is that they aren't *quite* that stupid, and so the excess force in the phrasing gives it away as fud. But then that's where it gets funny. There's a school of advertising now that apparently believes in the "black hole" approach - abuse the customers/public. Then they become grumpy. So abuse them some more. Then they get angry.

But THEN if you amp it up to waterboarding, their sanity explodes through the far side of the black hole, and then they buy things from you!!

 :o

Krishean

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2013, 11:03:00 PM »
That's not how black holes work  :(  That's Stockholm syndrome.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

- Arthur C. Clarke
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 11:08:31 PM by Krishean »

40hz

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2013, 08:22:15 AM »
Well...now that Mozilla is on record, it's equally important that they not have a sudden change of heart about their decision.

And as far as Mr. Jaffe's threats on behalf of the ad industry he represents are concerned, I say: Bring it on!

128887999537737863.jpg

SeraphimLabs

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2013, 03:59:21 PM »
There won't be any changes in my ad policies as a result of this.

If I see though that a particular ad company has started disturbing my ad layouts or altering the types of ads being used without my consent, they'll find my account closed on the spot and all of the traffic I give them going to their competitors.

And I use firefox over here. So if they try anything, I'll know about it.

When will corporations learn that they can't abuse the public like this? People aren't going to deal with it forever.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2013, 05:52:41 PM »
Semi Apropos, over on slahdot I finally quit reading at -1. Why? Because I could deal with the old days when there were quick blindingly obvious goatse trolls. Scroll past them. The ones that made me quit? There's a new rash of trolls posting TWENTY PAGE posts!!

Same thing with ads... the new hotness is these incredibly fast scrolling ones "OTHER CONTENT YOU MAY LIKE" that if your mouse slips over any part of the page, it then bludgeons out the entire page.  :mad:

I've come close to making a parody of Ads/DRM/Copyright in some kind of game form. The only thing stopping me is my utter lack of game creation skills.

app103

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2013, 07:49:33 PM »
I've come close to making a parody of Ads/DRM/Copyright in some kind of game form. The only thing stopping me is my utter lack of game creation skills.

There is an amusing old school one that's been around for years on Neopets. You can play it without an account. It will bring back the nightmares of 1999; in a safe, controlled environment.  :D

It was great, way back when, for training kids not to click the popups or malware installers.

Quote
Advert Attack - ... it's the latest game from Virtupets Studios - Super Race. It's a no-holds barred race to the finish where you control Ace Zafara and try and sprint faster than the computer-controlled Race Robot. Click on the 'Go!' button as many times as you can to make Ace run faster.

However, the marketing department of Virtupets Studios has been trying lately to earn extra revenues from this game's popularity... you have been warned!

Tinman57

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2013, 07:06:28 PM »
Can you lie to yourself over and over until you believe the lie?

  Some people can.  There's a technical term for it, Pathological Liar.  People with this condition can lie and actually believe the lie.  I've known a few of them.....unfortunately....

IainB

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Has the Ad Industry infiltrated Mozilla?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2015, 02:20:40 PM »
After searching through Mozilla-related topics in the DC Forum (site:donationcoder.com Mozilla) for a thread that discussed ad-blocking by Mozilla, I did a "necro thread arise" on this particular thread and renamed it especially for this post (see below) to make the point that the situation seems like it might well have been reversed 180° - turned on its head, so to speak - at Mozilla.
===========================

You want the Web and your browsing experience of that to be Healthy, Commercially Sustainable and Resilient™, don't you? Yes, of course you do, and if you haven't thought very much about the matter, well read on - because we have and we can tell you what to think about it! Isn't that exciting? We know what's acceptable to users and what's not, so we've taken charge already - yes, we have! - and are working assiduously round the clock with publishers to ensure that that is what you will be getting! You'll be so pleased, I know!

You see we've had a Vision - yes! Yes we have! And it's so perfect  - better even than Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes' vision of the Immaculate Conception - that we can't wait to proselytize and tell you all about it! Well, not too much, of course, because, well, its complicated, d'you see? I was chosen because I'm in charge of all that complicated legal stuff, you see, because, well, a lot of people didn't believe poor little Bernadette's vision - and some people still don't believe it, even after all that time (silly, eh?) - and we want so much for you to believe the Mozilla Vision that we're going to use a special magik language called "legalese doublespeak" to explain it all to you, and I'm fluent in that language - I speak it like a native!

Anyway, best beloved users (and we do love you so, you know! - each and every one of you! We love you to bits!), in the Vision, we were charged with the sole responsibility of making the Web - and your browsing experience of that - Healthy, Commercially Sustainable and Resilient™. And some of us wanted to add the word "Agile" in there too - because all users like "Agile", of course - but it was getting a bit too long, so we left it out.

What we did was we put our collective little heads of diverse colours together - equal numbers of girls and boys and all the other 5 genders! - and then we had a lovely diverse collective Vision for the Mozilla Corporation! So it's Mozilla's Vision - d'you see? And I have been Chosen - given the honour - of telling you about it. It makes me so happy, and I'm smiling as I write this - can you feel the smile? It's in my words. We were so wrong and broken before, but now, well, now we're all fixed and so right! And you will be too! You'll see!

It really is amazing, our Mozilla Vision! Have we got a deal for you!
Are you sitting comfortably? ...  Then we'll begin...
Mozilla’s Vision for a Healthy, Sustainable Web | The Mozilla Blog
(Copied below sans embedded hyperlinks/images.)
Quote
Sep 24 2015
      Denelle Dixon-Thayer

Not surprisingly, the latest discussions around content blocking have resulted in a polarizing debate about the users who choose to block content as a way to control their Web experience, and the commercial interests who monetize that content. All of this inevitably leads to a discussion about which content is good, which content is bad, and which content should be blocked.

Rather than focusing on the symptoms of the problem, we should be asking ourselves why users have sought to use blunt instruments like content blockers to help them navigate their online lives. We don’t know the full answer to this question yet. What we see is that the reasons differ among users and may depend on the device (e.g. on desktop users may be focused on privacy and performance may be a side benefit, whereas on mobile performance and data usage may be a main focus). We as an industry need to understand the user’s needs.

User needs and commercial interests are not a zero-sum game – they are complementary parts of one thriving, resilient Web. Creating a balance between commercial profit and user benefit is critical to the health of the Web.

An issue needing more balance is user data. The collection and use of data is not inherently harmful. It helps with powering personalized features, keeping products up to date, providing user support and improving the ways products work. Providing user value through data collection is a healthy and necessary way to help create compelling experiences. However, when data is collected without providing the user with value or control, and the value exchange becomes opaque, confusion sets in. Then users start to mistrust the entire system—including the good actors.

We are trying to get to the root of the problem – but not just through research. We are also working to develop products, features and engagement supporting a great user experience and commercial sustainability.

We need your help to find this delicate balance and to chart the path for a Web based on trust.
You can help us test Private Browsing with Tracking Protection in Firefox Beta. The tracking protection feature in private browsing is targeted toward those users who are seeking more control – whether that control is about the protection of data or the desire for better performance. Additionally tools such as Lightbeam, Smart On Privacy, and Web Literacy programs educate users and offer better insight into how the Web works.

On the commercial end of the equation, we are playing a leading role with publisher initiatives to take charge of the experiences delivered on their sites and deliver more acceptable advertising experiences to users.

As an industry we need to keep the user at the center of the product vision rather than viewing the user as just a target to acquire. It’s the only way to honor the user’s choice and deliver the best, most trusted and most valuable experiences possible.
_________________

Yours, BFF,
          Danielle.
PS: Here's a full image of the lovely blog page we made especially for this post. It's yours to keep! I hope it makes you happy and smiley as much as it does me.

Mozilla - Vision for a Healthy Commercially Sustainable and Resilient Web.pngAd Industry Attacks Firefox (click to enlarge)

J-Mac

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2015, 04:22:31 PM »
Ha!  Bring it on,  ad-weenies!  Loaded for bear here.   :P

And when my ad-blockers fail,  my "Remove this object"  button will see much use!

Jim

Innuendo

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2015, 07:56:59 PM »
Wait, wait, wait...I have to circle back to what the ad industry spokesman said. Am I misunderstanding or is he stating that blocking ads causes us to lose our online privacy?

Upon reading his statement I immediately thought of the speeches the RIAA drones give on every music award show.

IainB

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2015, 08:59:44 PM »
Wait, wait, wait...I have to circle back to what the ad industry spokesman said. Am I misunderstanding or is he stating that blocking ads causes us to lose our online privacy?
Upon reading his statement I immediately thought of the speeches the RIAA drones give on every music award show.
________________________

I think you seem to have nailed the logical structure of it correctly, right there, but you have to realise that it was said at an earlier time (in 2013, I think) when the lunar gravitational pull was inexplicably abnormally high, such that it was causing the development of tics, or "lunar tics" as they were called at the time. The spokesperson who is quoted has moved on and is now President of the TATWD Society (Turtles All The Way Down) and Chief Scientific Advisor on the White House Climate Change Policy Advisory Sub-Committee on Astral Turtles, or something.   :o

ilikefree09

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2015, 01:19:59 AM »
One of the first things I do when I put Firefox on peoples computers is block third party cookies
Next I install Better Privacy
Then install add-ons like Adblock plus, Ghostry, HTTPS Everywhere
I see almost no adverts
shit doesn't just happen there's always an arsehole involved

IainB

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2015, 03:25:05 AM »
@ilikefree09: Yep, same here. No doubt Danielle Dixon-Fire will be able to show us a far, far better path though.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2015, 01:18:43 PM »
Okay, this is not "Devil's Advocate" because I think she is *partly* right. And I think we're at risk here of "glossing over her well tuned language". I'm just gonna put stuff in quotes because I don't feel like scissoring parts of the original.

1. To begin this discussion with respect, *spell her name correctly*. (I like to joke it was 5% of my old job because I have an eye towards these things.) Its *Denelle*. Not "Danielle". And then the last part of you calling her "Dixon-Fire" is just ad hominem.

2. "An issue needing more balance is user data. The collection and use of data is not inherently harmful. It helps with powering personalized features, keeping products up to date, providing user support and improving the ways products work. Providing user value through data collection is a healthy and necessary way to help create compelling experiences. However, when data is collected without providing the user with value or control, and the value exchange becomes opaque, confusion sets in. Then users start to mistrust the entire system—including the good actors.

We are trying to get to the root of the problem – but not just through research. We are also working to develop products, features and engagement supporting a great user experience and commercial sustainability."

This is very nearly completely correct!
:tellme:

What is happening right now is the data *is* being collected *without value or control*. So she's right! So what happens if we somehow developed turbo control for us, to "value the shit out of what we want"!? (To use the phrase from Matt Damon's character in The Martian).

And paraphrasing elsewhere, "Why are users using blunt instruments?" - Because we didn't give them a scalpel! What if the browser started with (in a special particular edition) hardcoded forced zero ads (as best they can, companies are starting to slip by with javascript pushed ones into new pages and stuff).

Then *at our discretion* one by one, there is a button on the top that says "I'm bored. Show me a dropdown list of ads available for this page." (Or other menu, your choice of UI but that's a quibble.)

So then you get a list and you go "Pampers, skip. Target, skip. Cheerios developed new tech to make their Cheerios certified Gluten Free ... ooh, that's interesting! Sure! Show me that ad!"

Then Cheerios gets notice back that you viewed their ad of your will, and I bet if anyone did a study on this "info retention about the product" will be higher. I know it is for me - I can paraphrase almost 75% of their related announcements on that topic right now. (And I like Cheerios anyway!)

So holy hell, FF used to be the brand you could fork, PaleMoon seems to be the only strong fork of it left (For 32 bit Windows?, there are some others on Linux etc.) So what would THAT feature look like? THAT could create a tremendous new thread because then people can go *seek out* new ads and some of them would go viral!


mahesh2k

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2015, 02:29:41 PM »
Not all website can survive on donation model. Some survive on ads. If ads are blocked like this I guess sites should disable access of firefox users.

Users can always shrug off saying find other way to make money but they are not being part of solution. Keeping ad indistry banter aside, sites should think of their own survival instead of playing pro-reader because not all users pay for premium content and giving content free trying to find other means to make money wont last forever.

40hz

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2015, 12:06:55 PM »
Not all website can survive on donation model. Some survive on ads. If ads are blocked like this I guess sites should disable access of firefox users.

Users can always shrug off saying find other way to make money but they are not being part of solution. Keeping ad indistry banter aside, sites should think of their own survival instead of playing pro-reader because not all users pay for premium content and giving content free trying to find other means to make money wont last forever.

Or possibly wake up to the inevitable realization that not everything someone is willing to read, look at, or listen to successfully overcomes the price/value barrier. Which is to say that not everything that's a good idea also makes for a good business. There are hundreds of incredibly interesting and "cool" things out there that have no commercial value whatsoever - and will continue to exist more because they're free than for any other reason.

In the past, many of these efforts were understood to be "labors of love" by both their creators and their consumers. But nowadays it seems almost everybody with an idea or a blog tends to see themselves as the next Edison or Hemingway. And they get resentful when people don't share that opinion. Or at least think enough of their talents to pay them to exercise their muse.

That has always been the way of things. And I doubt that's ever going to change no matter how much some people believe almost anything can be turned into an "info product" or "monetized." The average consumer is too aware of the many free "me too" and "just as good" alternatives out there to pay for anything they don't have to. So unless something on the web fills a genuine demonstrable need (as opposed to being a convenience or merely "nice to have") - or is truly unique and original (two things that are clearly missing from most websites) - there is zero chance of breaking even and making back the financial equivalent of the effort put into creating it.

I was once told: "Do it for love. Or do it for the money. But pick one and act accordingly. Because you'll seldom get a chance to do it for both."

And I think that's especially true when it comes to websites. There's just not enough "unique value," or originality to make most of them worth paying for. So they become the equivalent of a "nice conversation" in the F2F world rather than something like the advice of a physician or similar expert.

IMMO, getting into a pissing match with ad technology will only delay the inevitable shakeout that will come for all those hopefuls that are seeking to make money off the web. Even the big players realize that - which is why any time a really good idea comes along, the savvy innovator seeks out major funding in order to make the biggest splash possible and grab market share as THE provider of whatever they're offering. Because if they don't, somebody with cash and resources who is watching and waiting on the sidelines will just come in and scoop their lunch right out from under them. Apple does that with their app developers. Come up with a genuinely revolutionary app that defines or redefines a software category and Apple will soon release their own version of it - and then boot your app right  out of their walled garden. Because one of the things in your developer contract says your product can't directly compete with an Apple owned app - even if you came out with it first.

Same goes for the web. Pretty much anything that can make serious money is soon acquired by Google or some other giant. What's left gets to compete among themselves and try to make money off of ads. Such is the way of a mature market. And the web has definitely come of age since the days when two college guys in a dorm room with a PC could stand the entire industry on it's ear. Like the people who invent things like to say, if you tell your idea to ten people, and they all think it's a great idea - you're already too late.

So I don't think ads (and ad wars) will accomplish anything except to piss the public off in the long run. Because people didn't start objecting to ads on the web until the people that were doing them got intrusive and obnoxious about it. Ad blockers didn't come into existence because people were intrinsically opposed to the advertising. They were created to deal with things like pop-over ads and similar forms of obnoxiousness. So if the ad industry has a problem with the negative reaction they're getting, they have nobody to blame but themselves. The viewers didn't start this war. They did.

As far as the ad industry vs Firefox goes, this is pretty much how I'm gonna aproach with it:

costanza-popcorn.gif

 8)

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2015, 02:06:47 PM »

"IMMO, getting into a pissing match with ad technology..."

I dunno, I think the Ad industry gets aggressive and wants to see how far it can push before it's driven back.

I am getting more and more grumpy HEY BUY A COCA COLA BECAUSE NEW ZEALAND LIKES IT that you can't even read text anymore!

 >:(

Shades

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 09:42:09 PM »
And then there is this new development...or a more direct link. At first glance, it looks reasonable for the end consumer. But it will have more nasty side effects if you think about it.

mahesh2k

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Re: Ad Industry Attacks Firefox
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2015, 03:27:13 AM »
Good to see you back 40hz.  :up: