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Author Topic: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?  (Read 5055 times)

Stoic Joker

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Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« on: May 31, 2010, 09:26:50 AM »
Okay, I'm allowing for the possibility that I could be nutz, but this has happened way too many times to be coincidence.

I've got an old(er) 52" flat screen (CRT) TV with a built in DVD player. I start watching a movie (which plays fine), then about half way through it, it suddenly looses its' abinity to load the next segment. If I try to hop past the "bad spot", it simply hangs on the next one also.

These are not knockoff copies. These are movies rented from BlockBuster.

I have in the past taken a movie back to get a different copy, but all copies "hang" (/exibit the same ill behavior) in about the same (half way through) place. Yet if I take the "defective" disk back to my office, it plays flawlessly in my computer - Which has a newer Plextor DVD.

So... Am I crazy? or is there some DRM "feature" that is confusing the old DVD player in my TV??

mouser

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 09:37:25 AM »
seems more likely that your built in dvd player has a problem.

Krishean

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 09:44:24 AM »
i have seen similar behavior to this with a few of my CSS "protected" dvds, i get about 2/3s to 3/4s through the movie and it will hit a bad block or something and the movie will start displaying green video corruption all over the place, and after a little while it simply refuses to play at all (or in one instance actually crashed my xbox1) and like you said, trying to skip ahead does nothing.

i did some looking into the problem and it seems to be either a disc read error that happens precisely at the right spot to mess up the CSS or something is wrong with the CSS encryption itself, because if i remove the CSS and put it on a dvd-r, the same video plays beautifully in whatever player i put it in. while doing that i noticed the disc took several tries to decode proplery leading me to believe there was something wrong with it (but i could not see any scratches whatsoever on the surface) it did decode after awhile however, but by the time it did your average dvd player would have given up (thus the bad video output)
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Carol Haynes

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 09:59:00 AM »
If it is a very old DVD player then it may not work with some of the more recent copy protection mechanisms (as suggested by Krishean). Either that or it is failing at the layer break on a DVD9 format DVD (in which case it may be a hardware fault).

Best bet is to buy a cheap DVD player and plug it into the TV (they are really very cheap these days).

If you want to test the theory you could use something like DVDFab (free to try for 30 days but you will need a dual layer burner and dual layer bank disks to experiment with) to create an unprotected one-one copy (use the Clone option) of the DVD you are having problems with. If it still has problems with the unprotected disk it is likely to be a hardware fault but if it plays OK then you you are having a DRM problem.

If it is a DRM issue you could try the TV manufacturer's website - sometimes they issue firmware updates to cure this sort of problem (assuming the support page is still there). Alternatively phone/email the manufacturer and see if they can send you a firmware update.

Deozaan

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 11:02:02 AM »
I'd guess it's a DVD9 error before thinking it was DRM. As Carol said, DVD9s are dual layer DVDs so when they switch from one layer to another (usually after the halfway point of a movie) there can sometime be a short pause during the transition. If your particular built-in DVD player can't handle the transition to the second layer, it would just hang.

Have you tried playing any DVD9s that you know have no DRM to see if they also hang during the layer switch?


Innuendo

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 11:10:40 AM »
Most DRM works by introducing out-of-spec data into the DVD's layout. The DRM relies on the ability of most DVD players to be able to gracefully recover from these errors and keep playing your movie. Unfortunately, some players will choke on these shenanigans & the problem is only getting worse.

The DRM peddlers keep getting farther and farther out of spec in an attempt to curtail disc duplication & it's having the unwanted effect of a greater number of players are unable to process their way through the error-riddled mess.

Cost of your player has nothing to do with it, either. Sony DVD players, which are usually some of the priciest, have the worst results with heavily-laden DRMed titles because Sony players adhere to the DVD data spec very closely.

Usually when I run across a title I know has a lot of DRM I'll run it through AnyDVD first before watching it & I usually have a better experience not to mention not having to sit through all those un-skippable segments at the beginning of the disc.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 11:43:40 AM »
Hm... The DVD in my Comp is a Plextor PX-740A (over-burn capable Dual layer etc., etc.) - I hadn't really thought about the basic disk layout (DVD9) aspect of the issue. I rather assumed (...) that all the factory pressed DVDs were dual layer - causing the earlier disk copy methods to be lossy trying to "fit" the movie on what was available to consumers (single layer blanks) at the time.

I'm not really a movie collector - I see a movie once, and have no desire to watch it again, and again (, and again...). So I never really had an interest in the medley of knock-off methods. However I am really getting curious about then now...

The wife & I generally only rent movies on holidays because we're a bit low on family these days... and there is never anything worth sitting through on TV. So I've not a real large sampling size to work with. The three we just rented are:
Sherlock Holmes (which played fine)
2012 (which got thrown across the floor - but played fine in my 'puter)
Legion (which we haven't watched yet)

The Simpson's movie is the only other one that comes to mind (tho there were several others) that also played (or rather failed to played..) this shit also.


...Guess I'll be going on the market for a (non Sony) DVD player as the built in unit is too old for the current disk protection shenanigan level.


Frankly IMO... Video piracy just became the Robin Hood of the 21st century ... And if I gotta take it in the ass every time I want to watch a movie...I might as well be wearing tights...

Renegade

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 11:51:51 AM »
BEGIN RANT --

Total Rant


THANK-GOD THAT SOMEBODY RAISED THIS TOPIC!!!

This is a fundamental problem that we should NOT have to deal with at all. I have more problems with legitimate DVDs that I buy than any of the illegitimate ones. (Yes -- I have bought 'fake' DVDs in places where you simply cannot buy 'real' ones.) To be honest, 'fake' DVDs work far better than 'real' DVDs.

Best bet is to buy a cheap DVD player and plug it into the TV (they are really very cheap these days).


No disrespect to you Carol, but that's a piss-poor solution. These guys are supposed to publish their product in a format that is a standard. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. Buying a new DVD player is simply far too much to expect from the consumer. e.g. "Oh, it didn't work in the brand A DVD player? Then just buy a brand B DVD player." Rinse. Repeat. Not good.


If it is a DRM issue you could try the TV manufacturer's website - sometimes they issue firmware updates to cure this sort of problem (assuming the support page is still there). Alternatively phone/email the manufacturer and see if they can send you a firmware update.


Again, same issue. Why should the consumer need to fart around with this kind of thing?


Most DRM works by introducing out-of-spec data into the DVD's layout. The DRM relies on the ability of most DVD players to be able to gracefully recover from these errors and keep playing your movie. Unfortunately, some players will choke on these shenanigans & the problem is only getting worse.

The DRM peddlers keep getting farther and farther out of spec in an attempt to curtail disc duplication & it's having the unwanted effect of a greater number of players are unable to process their way through the error-riddled mess.

Cost of your player has nothing to do with it, either. Sony DVD players, which are usually some of the priciest, have the worst results with heavily-laden DRMed titles because Sony players adhere to the DVD data spec very closely.

Usually when I run across a title I know has a lot of DRM I'll run it through AnyDVD first before watching it & I usually have a better experience not to mention not having to sit through all those un-skippable segments at the beginning of the disc.


DRM for DVDs is simply very, very, very broken. Not just broken, but totally f**ked.

I have some movies that I bought in an expensive DVD set that I have not been able to watch for several years. I got sick of it the other day and I downloaded a 'pirated' version of them. Now, I already 'own' copies of them in a boxed set that I bought at retail, but because of the idiocy in the DVDs, I can't watch them. i.e. The product is broken and doesn't work.

Did I break the law? Well, I simply don't give a s**t. I am sick and tired of being f**ked by paranoid d**k s**t a$$holes that would rather f**k their good customers than put up with a small amount of piracy.

Should I feel guilty for 'stealing'? Nope. In fact, I feel that they owe me for the inconvenience of having to download 'pirated' versions to view content that I already paid for.



...


new rant below...



...



Now, let's go on a new rant...



...



iTunes and crap like it. If you "buy" a video there, you are encumbered by their DRM (which essentially makes it useless), and on top of that, if you lose it, you're hosed. iTunes will not allow you to download content that you already paid for. You lose it? You pay for it again. No time limits. No download count. Nothing. You're f**ked.


DRM is f**ked.


Raping customers is f**ked.


I am sick of companies that treat their customers like s**t.


DISCLAIMER: All of my personal information as to who I am is publicly available. I do not hide. I do not pretend. I am not a wanker like so many of these 'lawyered-up' wankers are. If anyone wants to sue me, go ahead. I will retaliate in ways that make your grandchildren cry.





-- END RANT


Sensitive topic... ;)


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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 11:58:41 AM »
I'm not really a movie collector - I see a movie once, and have no desire to watch it again, and again (, and again...). So I never really had an interest in the medley of knock-off methods. However I am really getting curious about then now...

There are a few movies that I have seen a trillion times. All of which I own on either VHS or DVD and in legitimate copies (not pirated).  Most though, I forget almost instantly and have no desire to see them again.


Frankly IMO... Video piracy just became the Robin Hood of the 21st century ... And if I gotta take it in the ass every time I want to watch a movie...I might as well be wearing tights...

Ouch! I really don't like seeing some anal-rape in the rear-view mirror.

As far as I can see, there is some very nasty stuff going on that is simply 100% against the interests of the consumer. Who wants to screw their customers more than <insert answer here>?
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Stoic Joker

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 12:19:26 PM »
[Reguarding rant] Ya gotta admit folks, he's got style...

ROFL

I'm not really a movie collector - I see a movie once, and have no desire to watch it again, and again (, and again...). So I never really had an interest in the medley of knock-off methods. However I am really getting curious about then now...

There are a few movies that I have seen a trillion times. All of which I own on either VHS or DVD and in legitimate copies (not pirated).  Most though, I forget almost instantly and have no desire to see them again.
I saw Stars Wars 6 times back when I was 15, and that was it. I've seen it again once or twice (Star Wars marathon on TV constantly) ... but I've no desire to own a copy.

Frankly IMO... Video piracy just became the Robin Hood of the 21st century ... And if I gotta take it in the ass every time I want to watch a movie...I might as well be wearing tights...

Ouch! I really don't like seeing some anal-rape in the rear-view mirror.

As far as I can see, there is some very nasty stuff going on that is simply 100% against the interests of the consumer. Who wants to screw their customers more than <insert answer here>?
Damn Straight! ...Show me a movie or rock star driving a rusty Ford Pinto (just once) and then I'll believe there is a problem.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 12:21:18 PM by Stoic Joker »

Carol Haynes

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 12:34:44 PM »
I agree with the rant comments above - I was simply trying to offer a practical solution other than having to copy your entire DVD collection to unprotected format or simply give up on DVDs.

Having said that I don't think the firmware suggestion was a bad idea (however inconvenient). DVD players are basically simple computer systems with firmware. Firmware, like any software, carries bugs and firmware updates can fix them. If you wait for manufacturers to produce any perfect products you wouldn't be driving a car, watching TV, using the internet or anything else much beyond stone age technology!

I may have been lucky but I have a large collection of DVDs (Region 1 and Region 2) and have had almost no problems on 5 different DVD players (including Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer and Toshiba machines) or over 10 DVD drives in a PC (mostly Pioneer or Plextor).

I agree that DVD formats should comply with DVD spec - but I thought that copy protection was included in the spec of DVD formats, just as it is in Blu-ray. Having said that there isn't much point in the protection since it is all fundamentally flawed and anyone with a computer is capable of removing it with just two mouse clicks. Everyone would be much happier is studios were sensible and simply released unprotected disks.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 02:18:44 PM »
I'm not ruling out the firmware option, I just have no idea how to "flash" a television.

app103

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 03:22:24 PM »
I know it is DVD's that we are talking about, but something similar started happening to music CD's in one of my computers about 5-6 years ago. Everything would be fine till it got to one point on the disk, then I couldn't get it to play past that. Couldn't even skip ahead to the next track. I could skip back though, just to have it repeat again when it got to the same spot.

The CD's worked fine in any other player or computer.

It started happening more frequently, and with CD's that used to work in that drive. That's when I knew it was a drive issue and not really the fault of the disk (and there was no DRM involved, or that would have just caused an immediate software crash, and it wouldn't have played at all)

I am not sure how old your TV is, or if you might need to have the drive cleaned, but maybe that is a possibility, too.

What I am trying to say is it could be either dying or dirty.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 03:42:33 PM »
I'm not ruling out the firmware option, I just have no idea how to "flash" a television.

There will be instructions with the firmware. I did it on an old DVD player once and you just burned the firmware on a CD and stuck it in the drive and the machine recognised it was a firmware upgrade. It was no big deal.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 03:44:02 PM »
What I am trying to say is it could be either dying or dirty.

It could be a laser on the edge ... I have had a few laser devices die but they have generally been working one day and not the next.

cranioscopical

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 03:48:50 PM »
I just have no idea how to "flash" a television
It's not too difficult.
FTV.png


app103

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 03:53:51 PM »
are you sure?
flash-cubes.jpg


cranioscopical

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 04:00:50 PM »

Well, I assumed it would be done in camera.

J-Mac

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2010, 05:06:54 PM »
I have seen the same problem only when I connected my DVD player via HDMI. I think my HDTV - though it claims to be HDMI-compliant - was very poorly designed WRT HDMI. When the DVD player failed to work well on HDMI I switched and put my Roku player on the HDMI connection - same problem. The TV is the common element here.

Just a thought.

Jim

Innuendo

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2010, 05:15:44 PM »
Hm... The DVD in my Comp is a Plextor PX-740A (over-burn capable Dual layer etc., etc.) - I hadn't really thought about the basic disk layout (DVD9) aspect of the issue. I rather assumed (...) that all the factory pressed DVDs were dual layer - causing the earlier disk copy methods to be lossy trying to "fit" the movie on what was available to consumers (single layer blanks) at the time.

Nearly all retail DVDs sold are dual-layer these days, but it's not the size of the disc that we are discussing, but rather the specifications that each portion of the track layout must possess (or not possess...which is how DRM works on DVDs).

Quote
...Guess I'll be going on the market for a (non Sony) DVD player as the built in unit is too old for the current disk protection shenanigan level.

If you are in the States may I suggest a Philips DVD player such as the DVP-5990? Less than $60 everywhere, has a USB port for photos and movie files (DivX and WMV), and entering a "magic code" on the remote makes the player region-free allowing you to play DVDs from around the world.


Innuendo

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2010, 05:19:34 PM »
I agree that DVD formats should comply with DVD spec - but I thought that copy protection was included in the spec of DVD formats, just as it is in Blu-ray.

The DVD format was from a simpler time. The only DRM that was officially part of the specifications was the CSS encryption that the movie industry thought that no one on God's green Earth would ever decrypt....until along came DVD Jon. :D

With their only defense decimated the movie industry had to resort to trickery such as fake data paths that are never accessed during the playing of a movie but an attempt to copy it would resort in a bad copy. That's why Blu-Ray has so much DRM layered upon it. The movie industry didn't want to get caught with its pants down again...but in true fashion, those layers have been breached as well.

Innuendo

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2010, 05:24:10 PM »
I have seen the same problem only when I connected my DVD player via HDMI. I think my HDTV - though it claims to be HDMI-compliant - was very poorly designed WRT HDMI. When the DVD player failed to work well on HDMI I switched and put my Roku player on the HDMI connection - same problem. The TV is the common element here.

HDMI is a whole 'nother ball of wax. HDMI was first released at v1.0...then came v1.1...and v1.2...and v1.3...now v1.4 is on the horizon. These are hardware revisions & there's no way to upgrade to a newer version of HDMI short of replacing the equipment & now there are Blu-Ray discs & players that demand being hooked up to other equipment that is at least HDMI v1.3. Anything less than that & the disc will not play. At all. Now all these people who have older equipment have to replace their components or settle for not being able to watch any newer movies.

Forced obsolescence is the rule of the day. Yeah...they've got us right where they want us.

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2010, 10:17:50 PM »

If you are in the States may I suggest a Philips DVD player such as the DVP-5990? Less than $60 everywhere, has a USB port for photos and movie files (DivX and WMV), and entering a "magic code" on the remote makes the player region-free allowing you to play DVDs from around the world.

Here's that "magic code" that you mentioned. It works with Phillips players and several Sony players. Some folks claim it works on almost any player but I didn't have any others to test it.

DVD all-region hack
Phillips (and some Sony) DVD Player hack for any region.

You have to go to setup>preferences and press 138931 on your remote > press 'up' arrow to select '0' and hit setup again to exit and you can play any region dvd.

1. Don't put DVD in player.
2. Press "Setup" on remote.
3. Press ">" to "Preferences" menu. (If DVD is in player, the "Preferences" menu will be skipped over.)
4. At that screen enter 138931 on remote.
5. Region code screen is displayed. Press "^" to "0".
6. Press "Setup" on remote.
7. Press "OK" on remote.


 :)

Jim

Innuendo

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Re: Does DRM Kill the End of a Movie??!?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2010, 10:35:29 PM »
And J-Mac, that code works beautifully. I can watch movies that are from other regions and/or PAL that will never be released in the U.S. and they all work beautifully.