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Author Topic: Cross-utilization?  (Read 1232 times)

crabby3

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Cross-utilization?
« on: November 04, 2016, 02:26:24 PM »
Could a cell phone, or a tablet, be used to defrag a flash-drive?

Similar to using a separate VHS rewinder instead of the VHS recorder?

ConstanceJill

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2016, 06:36:11 PM »
Wait, what's the point to defrag a flash drive anyway?

I mean, it's not like fragmentation really has any effect on access times for non-mechanical drives... so unless perhaps you plan on making partitions on that drive… ?_?

However, if you still want an answer then: "Sure, why not? As long as you have a defrag program that can run on those devices and access the usb drives..."

wraith808

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2016, 09:57:06 PM »
Wait, what's the point to defrag a flash drive anyway?


You never want to defrag a flash drive.  Flash memory wears out.  And defragging uses up reads and writes from the flash drive's lifetime.

MilesAhead

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2016, 07:23:56 AM »
Wait, what's the point to defrag a flash drive anyway?


You never want to defrag a flash drive.  Flash memory wears out.  And defragging uses up reads and writes from the flash drive's lifetime.

You certainly would not want to shuffle the clusters around.  If anything you might copy the entire drive to another storage, erase the flash drive, then copy back on file by file.  Do benchmarks before and after to see if it makes any difference whatsoever.  In general usage I bet not.  But perhaps in some funky DB application you might get a nanosecond here and there.  It would be interesting to find out.

Vurbal

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2016, 12:02:36 PM »
Defragging only makes sense on a physical drive because of the moving parts, ie the time it takes to move from one physical location on the platter to another. On a flash drive the problem is not physical movement, but rather the limited number of reads and writes before it wears out. A properly designed flash drive intentionally fragments data to avoid using the same addresses over and over.

In fact, I wouldn't expect the physical locations of the addresses, nor would I assume they were physically contiguous.
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MilesAhead

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2016, 03:57:56 PM »
I'd be curious if there is a concise explanation of USB flash vs SSD and the SSD's facility for trim or pre-W7 the algorithm built into the controller to "condition" deleted memory so it writes quickly again the next time around, and the ramifications(pun intended) thereof.  :)

crabby3

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 03:41:49 PM »
Wait, what's the point to defrag a flash drive anyway?

I mean, it's not like fragmentation really has any effect on access times for non-mechanical drives... so unless perhaps you plan on making partitions on that drive… ?_?

However, if you still want an answer then: "Sure, why not? As long as you have a defrag program that can run on those devices and access the usb drives..."

Thank you, ConstanceJill.

A total stranger asked me this.

I thought it was possible but a little knowledge about anything is dangerous so I just shrugged and changed the subject.

Just glad I didn't answer after reading all the replies here.

crabby3

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 03:47:41 PM »
Wait, what's the point to defrag a flash drive anyway?


You never want to defrag a flash drive.  Flash memory wears out.  And defragging uses up reads and writes from the flash drive's lifetime.

How can something with no moving parts wear out?

wraith808

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2016, 04:07:46 PM »
Wait, what's the point to defrag a flash drive anyway?


You never want to defrag a flash drive.  Flash memory wears out.  And defragging uses up reads and writes from the flash drive's lifetime.

How can something with no moving parts wear out?


While the technology continues to improve, the fact is that flash memory has a limited number of times it can be written to. As it begins to get closer and closer to the rated writes on the flash drive, you begin to get errors and such.  Thus... wear out.

MilesAhead

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2016, 07:39:17 AM »
How can something with no moving parts wear out?

My GF used to ask me the same question.  ;)


crabby3

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 10:14:45 AM »
The wear seems to be caused at the atomic-level.   Quotes from here.   Short read... if you know your acronyms.

Quote
NAND flash stores the information by controlling the amount of electrons in a region called a “floating gate”. These electrons change the conductive properties of the memory cell (the gate voltage needed to turn the cell on and off), which in turn is used to store one or more bits of data in the cell. This is why the ability of the floating gate to hold a charge is critical to the cell’s ability to reliably store data.

Quote
When written to and erased during the normal course of use, the oxide layer separating the floating gate from the substrate degrades, reducing its ability to hold a charge for an extended period of time.

So... are current flash drives the convertable roofs of the computer world?  Cool and fun 8) when they're new but begin to leak later on?

Maybe the best way to extend the life of your data is to walk to the next aisle and get an external hard drive.   :)

MilesAhead

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2016, 03:50:23 PM »
So... are current flash drives the convertable roofs of the computer world?  Cool and fun  when they're new but begin to leak later on?
   Heh heh.  I always wanted to try one of those "hard top" convertibles that fold up but are not so obviously convertibles.  They look better and don't attract slashers.

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Maybe the best way to extend the life of your data is to walk to the next aisle and get an external hard drive.   

Or just keep migrating to the next technology before the shelf life of the old runs out.  We survived floppies.  I think we'll survive flash drives.  :)

Edit:  Hmm, floppy drive and flash drive... seems like we have to think of another removable storage device that starts with "fl."


« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 03:56:42 PM by MilesAhead »

crabby3

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 03:26:00 PM »
So... are current flash drives the convertable roofs of the computer world?  Cool and fun  when they're new but begin to leak later on?
   Heh heh.  I always wanted to try one of those "hard top" convertibles that fold up but are not so obviously convertibles.  They look better and don't attract slashers.

Quote
Maybe the best way to extend the life of your data is to walk to the next aisle and get an external hard drive.   

Or just keep migrating to the next technology before the shelf life of the old runs out.  We survived floppies.  I think we'll survive flash drives.  :)

Edit:  Hmm, floppy drive and flash drive... seems like we have to think of another removable storage device that starts with "fl."




How about fling?  Could pertain to lifespan or how it's treated when it wears out.

n. - A usually brief attempt
n. - The act of flinging
v. - Throw with force or recklessness
v. - Throw or cast away
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 04:16:37 PM by crabby3, Reason: added/changed words »

MilesAhead

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2016, 06:15:43 PM »
@crabby3 fling.  Could also be a good name for a search engine that returns copious information unrelated to the query in question.  :)


crabby3

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2016, 02:38:01 PM »
Could also be a good name for a search engine that returns copious information unrelated to the query in question.  :)

Google does this occasionally, if my guessing the 'right' keywords isn't good enough.  :)  How about fling+Google... flingle?

Aren't some words relating to anything these days... just made-up?

MilesAhead

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2016, 04:46:32 PM »
Could also be a good name for a search engine that returns copious information unrelated to the query in question.  :)

Google does this occasionally, if my guessing the 'right' keywords isn't good enough.  :)  How about fling+Google... flingle?

Sounds cool to me.

Quote
Aren't some words relating to anything these days... just made-up?

Yeah, one that comes to mind is WiFi.  Supposedly it does not really stand for anything.  The guy who coined the name probably was a HiFi enthusiast back in the day when they had dedicated HiFi stores.  :)

crabby3

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 03:00:45 PM »
Could also be a good name for a search engine that returns copious information unrelated to the query in question.  :)

Google does this occasionally, if my guessing the 'right' keywords isn't good enough.  :)  How about fling+Google... flingle?

Sounds cool to me.

Quote
Aren't some words relating to anything these days... just made-up?

Yeah, one that comes to mind is WiFi.  Supposedly it does not really stand for anything.  The guy who coined the name probably was a HiFi enthusiast back in the day when they had dedicated HiFi stores.  :)


Yes, it doesn't really stand for anything.  But WiFi is easier to remember than "IEEE 802.11b Direct Sequence".  Short read.

BTW  Word-of-mouth is very unreliable.  Around 30 yrs ago I read something about yin yang and finally saw the correct spelling. ;D  Better late than...

MilesAhead

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Re: Cross-utilization?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 03:28:27 PM »
Yes, it doesn't really stand for anything.  But WiFi is easier to remember than "IEEE 802.11b Direct Sequence".  Short read.

Not only that.  When a woman sites the spec the males present think she has seen a mouse(but not the kind with the wheel.)  :)