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Author Topic: new DVD "M-Disc" perfect for archive material  (Read 10843 times)
40hz
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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2012, 08:27:26 AM »

I alway worry about "single source" technology.

For backups and archives I prefer an industry standard technology - ideally an open sourced one just in case the original developer folds - or as is more common, gets bought out and is then pulled from the market.
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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2012, 08:31:06 AM »

I alway worry about "single source" technology.

For backups and archives I prefer an industry standard technology - ideally an open sourced one just in case the original developer folds - or as is more common, gets bought out and is then pulled from the market.

True, but with M-Discs, you only lose the ability to write, not read, so that's a small consolation.
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40hz
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« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2012, 10:29:06 AM »

I alway worry about "single source" technology.

For backups and archives I prefer an industry standard technology - ideally an open sourced one just in case the original developer folds - or as is more common, gets bought out and is then pulled from the market.

True, but with M-Discs, you only lose the ability to write, not read, so that's a small consolation.

Good point. Unless you're an idiot like me who tends to stockpile backup media in advance for a client and then gets stuck with 100 or so virgin disks they can no longer write to. Ouch! Grin

And it does have DoD certification for use under 'extreme' conditions, so that counts for something.

And to your earlier point about LG drives I'll concur 100%. They've worked well for me too. And at <$100 for the writer, and ~$3 per M-disc, it makes for an attractive price/benefit ratio. Especially if they can get the disc capacity up to dual layer at least. And it really is as permanent as they say it is.

I did notice some reviewers mentioned m-discs give off an odd odor that smells something like film developer. Since film developer contains phenols and benzene (which give it that characteristic smell) I wonder if whatever is causing that odor might have the potential to cause damage to other media if stored in the same cabinet...

« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 10:37:47 AM by 40hz » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2012, 10:45:00 AM »

It's always a balance of needs and costs.

Given the super-cheapness of the M-Disc, and the long life, and the unlikelihood of the DVD/Blu-ray format dying in the next decade, it seems like a pretty good solution at the moment. Something better may come along, but until then, it looks reasonable.

I do share your hesitance when it comes to the proprietary nature... That's a bit tough to choke down, but really, most hardware is like that. It's really only software where you can get openness. That's changing, but...
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« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2012, 03:56:06 PM »

LG sends all their reject to this part of the world. A week after I burn a disc on my LG drive I am not sure if I can still read the disc in my drive...while it is working in others.
Lets just say that I am not a fan (and that would be the understatement of the year...globally!)  mad
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myarmor
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« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2012, 07:59:56 PM »

Now... about QR codes... It's a completely silly concept (qualified below). There's no way that anyone is going to be running around town and see some QR code and think to themselves, "Hey! I need to go and find out what that bizarre looking squiggly square is, then look for software than can decrypt it for me so that I can try and find some web site..." JFC... That's total insanity. QR can only work if it is pre-installed on all (or most) devices. Nobody cares about funky squares. They're meaningless wastes of space for most people. That is... Until it reaches past critical penetration, which it is very far from right now. (Yeah... I tend to piss on stuff early... I know...) But we've already seen this fail several times before. The QR code thing is just the new kid on the block, and he'll get his black eyes as well before long. (Unless there is serious industry intervention.)

That is, adding in an additional layer before people can get to the data is simply too much to ask. (Yes - I know what I just said, and the implications, but the installable software question is an entirely different level of commitment on the part of the recipient.)

It's a bit OT, but I had to arrest you regarding the QR codes.
They're not exactly new, invented in Japan in 1994 by Toyota subsidiary Denso Wave to track vehicles during manufacturing,
registered with AIM since 1997, ISO (something) since 2000, and readers exists for just about anything
symbian, android, iphone, pc, in addition to specialized readers etc.

Nowadays it's either included or freely available to just about anything portable which has a camera.
Basically, I think QR codes is almost as well known as barcodes now, just that the man in the street can actually use the former, and QR codes can provide alot more information.
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« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2012, 08:54:38 PM »

LG sends all their reject to this part of the world.

Hope the following digression will be tolerated smiley

I have started to suspect that some companies that distribute to multiple countries have measurements per-country (may be even more specific?) of what level of quality they can deliver to which country.  If you produce a lot of products and can measure such things, it seems like an obvious thing to at least consider.  (I was just chatting the other day with someone who hasn't had problems with HDDs for years, but has had awful experience with optical media, whereas, the reverse situation has been true for me for approximately the last decade.)

If any one has sources of information regarding this, please share.

(FWIW, my personal experience with the LG burner I got recently has been quite good so far.)
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« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2012, 09:01:47 PM »

Especially if they can get the disc capacity up to dual layer at least.

FWIW, regarding this point, some of the comments in blog posts at the M-Disc maker's site seem to indicate they are considering Blu-ray:

http://millenniata.com/20...disc-technology/#comments

Quote
It would have the same characteristics and lifespan as the M-DISC now. But, we do not have plans to launch a Blu-ray version that early. Larger capacity will come, but we are still working towards that endeavor. When we have solid information we will share it!

http://millenniata.com/20...lg-data-storage/#comments

Quote
We are working on Blue-Ray M-DISCs that will be capable of more storage. We definitely see the 4.7 GB as a weakness and are actively working to make our product better, especially in that regard. As we get further along with new technology we will be sure to let you all know about it!



Thanks for the note about the odors -- hadn't picked up on that.
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40hz
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« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2012, 09:33:47 PM »

^Interesting. Looking at Amazon here, it seems to imply that LG's drive is already capable of doing Blu-Ray burns. I guess it's just a matter of waiting for Blue-Ray M-Disc media.

5 will get you 10 the delay has more to do with hammering out a license arrangement with Sony than anything else. Grin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 09:47:11 AM by 40hz; Reason: fixed spelling » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2012, 12:46:54 AM »

I hope you're right about the issue being that of licensing and that that is taken care of easily...may be LG drives can get a firmware upgrade (or perhaps they are already capable...)



A minor point -- I know one of the things quoted used the term "Blue-Ray", but I think it's officially "Blu-ray" smiley
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2012, 09:37:31 AM »

LG sends all their reject to this part of the world.

Hope the following digression will be tolerated smiley

I have started to suspect that some companies that distribute to multiple countries have measurements per-country (may be even more specific?) of what level of quality they can deliver to which country.  If you produce a lot of products and can measure such things, it seems like an obvious thing to at least consider.  (I was just chatting the other day with someone who hasn't had problems with HDDs for years, but has had awful experience with optical media, whereas, the reverse situation has been true for me for approximately the last decade.)

If any one has sources of information regarding this, please share.

(FWIW, my personal experience with the LG burner I got recently has been quite good so far.)

It is standard practice world-wide to do this in many industries, and particularly in agriculture and natural products, e.g. lumber, hides, etc. You'll often be in some market and see something stamped "Export" or "Export Quality". No concrete examples for you, but I'm sure a search would turn up more info quickly.
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40hz
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2012, 09:48:17 AM »

A minor point -- I know one of the things quoted used the term "Blue-Ray", but I think it's officially "Blu-ray"

Corrected. Thx for pointing it out. smiley
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2013, 10:55:30 PM »

Regarding larger capacity discs, apparently in January of this year (2013), there was some relevant press release:

Quote
U.S.-based Millenniata (www.mdisc.com) ... announced it will offer Blu-ray M-DISCs in the second quarter of 2013, increasing both the storage capacity and the accessibility of the M-DISC.

...

The new Blu-ray M-DISCs will be writable and readable on any Blu-ray combo drive – an enormous step for Millenniata and the convenience of this permanent storage technology. The Blu-ray M-DISCs will also offer at least five times the amount of storage as the standard 4.7GB M-DISC.

via:

  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/millenniata-announces-blu-ray-optical-221400517.html (Mon, Jan 7, 2013)
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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2013, 07:22:23 AM »

I'm interested in the M-Disc. I'll probably give it another couple or three years to mature, then buy a more up to date PC that ships with a M-Disc ready DVD burner.

But here's a question: why can't they make flash storage more robust? Why not improve USB thumb drives' reliability/longevity? Is it just not possible? I mean, give me something like the 256 GB Kingston DataTraveler HyperX 3.0 but with 10x the expected life-span.
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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2013, 04:25:05 AM »

I'm interested in the M-Disc. I'll probably give it another couple or three years to mature, then buy a more up to date PC that ships with a M-Disc ready DVD burner.

IIUC, one nice thing about these newer M-DISC Blu-ray discs is that a special drive is not necessary to read or write them -- apart from being a drive that supports burning Blu-ray discs.  Don't have any idea of the price of these M-DISC Blu-ray discs though -- nor whether they will undergo testing similar to the M-DISC DVDs...

Quote
But here's a question: why can't they make flash storage more robust? Why not improve USB thumb drives' reliability/longevity? Is it just not possible? I mean, give me something like the 256 GB Kingston DataTraveler HyperX 3.0 but with 10x the expected life-span.

No idea really -- but even if it were possible, IIUC, when a thumb drive (or hard drive) fails, one often does't seem to have very long to get much of anything off of it before it becomes completely inaccessible (at least with equipment that most of us are likely to have access to).  Optical media on the other hand, seem to degrade more gradually and consequently, it seems like you don't lose as much nearly as fast once failures start (unless you shatter or something) -- and perhaps one can apply the likes of dvdisaster for some premeditated insurance.
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« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2013, 08:02:18 PM »


  I'm still waiting on the "Crystal Drives" they've been working on.  Like a thumb drive but it has memory crystals that is supposed to hold a huge amount of data all while doing it quite swiftly.  But they will probably wait until they've milked today's technology for all it's worth before it becomes available.
  I read about these crystal memory chips a couple years back, I think it was IBM that was exploring the technology, but I'm not positive.
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« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2013, 08:15:50 PM »

A couple of years ago we heard about a curious method of storing data that uses “monolithic glass space-variant polarization converters,” with wild promises of storing our media in five dimensions. Now it’s a reality. Or rather, the concept has been successfully demonstrated with real data. Living up to stereotype, the scientists at the University of Southamptonsaved a PDF file inside the glass. And yes, all five of the promised dimensions were used, which include the usual three, plus axis orientation and “birefringence” — a quality of refracted light. Thanks to how the data is stored, the glass “disc” used has a potential capacity of 360 TB, can withstand temperatures of 1,000 degrees Centigrade, and, unlike magnetic or flash media, won’t deteriorate with age. The “Superman memory crystal” — as it’s dubbed — isn’t commercially available just yet, but that team are seeking industry partners to help expedite that process.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/07/glassdiscawjt.jpg
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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2013, 05:53:53 PM »

Important to note that you have to buy a special DVD burner "the MWriter" - which doesnt seem to be easily available.

Quote
The Millenniata discs, while readable in normal DVD drives, are not writable in a
standard drive due to the proprietary firmware required to write to the Millennial disc. As
a result, there is only one drive that can be used to burn Millenniata media, the MWriter.

/from the PDF test results PDF Link.

  My DVD writer has a place for the M disc built in to the slide-out drawer.  I don't use them because they are only write once....
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