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Author Topic: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another  (Read 2741 times)

Paul Keith

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The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« on: July 07, 2010, 08:44:29 PM »
Quote
Its funny because there is so much hypocrisy.

In Japan the rape rates are so low, obviously the erotic things they produce must help them cope, but they are deemed as 'disgusting.'

And also ever since VHS and porn came out rape rates have dropped about 70%.

YES rape is totally wrong but it's a video game. If you choose do it outside, then you are a sick person.
Just like how if you play GTA you are NOT guaranteed to go and shoot hookers and carjack. Those options are made by people, not forced. Video games do not have a gun to their head, saying do this and do that. So why is a common sexual fantasy like rape looked at as obscene? Cause it's not the 'right' thing and people tend to think one thing always leads to another.

But shooting heads off and blowing up limbs? That's all day.

The world today is hurt so easily by pixels.. I'm sorry, just venting!

I had a longer comment underneath the topic but this one is much shorter and is much easier shareable although I have my doubts that it's much better at making the argument for the controversial side.




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tomos

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 03:44:20 AM »
There is surely lots of hypocrisy in this world.
But because 'shooting heads off and blowing up limbs' is "acceptable" doesnt mean that something else should be acceptable.

I'm maybe not a good guage of this - I'm no gamer. But, when I was growing up horror films were hugely popular. There's something there, some reason people want (need?) them. I'm not sure why. With the erotic stuff I reckon it's more straight forward:-
most societies distort and/or supress [ I dont even know what to call it - sexuality; the 'natural' course of events - whatever that is: most of us dont seem to know any more. I'm 46 yrs old and feel like I'm only starting to figure it out - YMWV ]. In fact I wouldnt be suprised if that's where the love of violence is coming from too..

So, while I think banning the symptoms of a problem are not a real solution, I think apologising for them is no solution either [edit] - although maybe no harm to get people thinking [/edit]
Tom
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 03:58:50 AM by tomos »

iphigenie

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2010, 11:55:20 AM »
1. People are not addicted to violence, they are addicted to strong emotions - and horror and violence are the easiest way to achieve strong emotions within visual media, so they are the most common.
2. Most games which depict criminal behaviour as entertaining and cool have been criticised, it is only the war violence that gets almost no criticism.
3. Rape is different because it is more common, and so often excused away. It's a crime that is already too common and glamorous to be encouraged or made sexy in any way

We have a rape culture, where it is often excused, underreported, underpunished and often blamed on the victim. This does not happen with other kinds of crime and violence.

You probably interact on a daily basis with women to which it has happened, and who might never have reported it, or have. Either way, they know to hide it because, after all, society has decreed that rape is not the fault of the rapist but of the victim.

In that context making a game out of it *is* a problem. It contributes to the rape culture around.

And I am totally clear that a game is not likely to make someone buy a gun and blow someone up, it would take a lot more than that, but with rape, there's a lot less inhibition to overcome

We live in a legal system where there is a lot excusing rape (in part simply because it is controlled by men, and all men can imagine being accused of rape), a culture a implying men are entitled to sex, a lot even making rape a cool/powerful thing for a man to do in arts of culture, that I think the barrier to overcome to go from thought to action is much lower - and I am not so sure that in these cases the game cannot give that little bit of unihibition that will make a guy go from "hmm, she's a bit too drunk let's play it safe" to "hey, she's a bit drunk, get her another drink, lucky score!!!" - especially in a group

Honestly if I think about myself I would not want to be alone anywhere with someone who gets their kicks off from a game like this - and even if you are a man, think about your daughter, sister, friends - would you be comfortable letting them get a lift home one evening from someone you know likes playing this? or who has spent 6 months creating that game?

and also
Quote
The point is “oh my god, this game is going to make rapists think that people are on their side.”  Which, of course, too many people actually are already, through their rape apologist jokes and excuses.  The premise of the game reinforces the idea of rape as okay and not a big deal.  It reinforces the idea that women exist for the sexual pleasure and abuse of men.  And the preview of the game Boing Boing, which does not include any actual rapes but only attempted rapes, also ends up reinforcing the dangerous and stereotypical idea of your “real” rape victim who always cries, calls out in distress and overall completely breaks down at actual violence or threats of it.

So yes, partly there is a hypocrisy in our society that is more sensitive to sex than violence - but there is also a hypocrisy around rape that blames the victim far too often... and in that context, the game is just about every kind of wrong
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 12:10:43 PM by iphigenie »

Deozaan

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2010, 12:18:02 PM »
In Japan the rape rates are so low, obviously the erotic things they produce must help them cope, but they are deemed as 'disgusting.'

Funny that you say there's a fallacy of saying one thing leads to another ("rape games lead to more rape!") while at the same time saying one thing leads to another ("rape games reduce rape!").

I just don't see the difference between a rape game and a game that would allow you to have sex with children. Just because there are pedophiles out there doesn't mean we should let them prey on digital children.

And yes I think there's a difference (not as much hypocrisy) with violent games because probably most people as kids play some kind of game (cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, etc.) where someone plays the good guys and some play the bad guys. The bad guys go around stealing and looting and killing and trying to get away and the good guys try to capture (or kill) the bad guys. So in violent games, usually there's a reason given to be so violent, though often the excuse is very flimsy. Reasons such as, "The gates of Hell have opened up and are spawning demons and you're the only one who can stop it!" or "You're a criminal and you can't get caught, no matter the cost!" Even if what you're doing in the video game is wrong (killing for no good reason) you can accept it because you're "playing the role" of the robber/indian/bad guy who is supposed to do those things and try to get away with it.

I guess what I'm saying is that there really isn't any situation in which rape or pedophilia is acceptable, but with violence we can all imagine instances and circumstances in which we could be sympathetic to killing another person. Almost every movie (and quite a few TV shows) that comes out these days gives us a reason to justify killing. Self defense, revenge, protecting/rescuing others, etc. But no one in their right mind should think there's a time and a place where pedophilia or rape are acceptable.


Paul Keith

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2010, 09:16:18 PM »
Quote
Funny that you say there's a fallacy of saying one thing leads to another ("rape games lead to more rape!") while at the same time saying one thing leads to another ("rape games reduce rape!").

Sorry if this wasn't made clear, the post is not mine.

Quote
I just don't see the difference between a rape game and a game that would allow you to have sex with children. Just because there are pedophiles out there doesn't mean we should let them prey on digital children.

I'm not trying to argue for that person but yes, the underlined is one of the key problems.

The big question really is how all sides can come to accept each other's terms.

Quote
because probably most people as kids play some kind of game (cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, etc.)

...and yet it is exactly those games that often contribute to wars.

This is a bit too far fetch for many though. (For example after the rage of revenge came post 9/11 it is very easy to flip it off as being tricked by the president rather than letting our emotions override any attempt to research the possible cause of such terrorist acts)

...but this is the way with any wicked problem. I guess I'm just mentioning this here as no different from how I approached that thread - sometimes before we can properly address the words we need to start addressing how we make excuses for one similar item and how we brand another similar item as evil and another as good.

Yet it's not possible. That would have to mean we have to feel bad about playing violent games. We would have to admit that most self-defense in games is faulty, we would have to admit that most revenge in games is written like cops and robbers rather than true tragedies, we would have to admit we're not protecting others just being lured to give ourselves an excuse to go all-out mayhem on digital characters, we would have to admit that we're basically rescuing fake people and that if we truly want to rescue lots of people we can better off serve using this time to truly rescue people that are in third world countries, poverty sections of our cities, minorities under siege...I'm not saying we should do this because I myself am not doing many of these things. I'm just trying to point out the complications - and let us not forget, sex isn't really that much less controversial even today. We can on hand have a society that publicly make sex scandal videos profitable and accuse troubled celebrities of needing to go into porn and yet similarly as a public we can look scornfully at a person not wearing underwear that was captured on photo even if what was shown is just the a lewd low quality version of what people end up knowing when they grow up anyway. Truly it is a conundrum of how we argue which things lead to another and which other thing doesn't lead to another or leads less to another.

Renegade

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 09:54:41 AM »
Wow. That someone would take the time to write a game to run a concentration camp... Stunning...

But I don't really see all that much difference between playing a rape/murder game and watching the 6 o'clock news; it's full of it, and it's only entertainment. Either way, it's using rape/murder/disaster as entertainment. One is fake/digital, and the other is real. So which is sicker?
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JavaJones

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 03:48:19 PM »
There's a definite difference from observing a situation and being *in control* of it. Watching the news, you may get a little "thrill", a heightened emotional state, from hearing about rape or murder due to the strong consequences and meaning in society. But you don't have any choice to make it happen or stop it from happening, so it's a pretty passive experience. You can choose to watch the news or not, but the rape/murder/whatever happened whether you watch or not.

It's different with a game that you actively control and in which you can influence the outcome. Choosing to rape or kill someone, and especially doing so in a context where there is no normally acceptable moral justification (e.g. if you're in a war, killing someone is "ok"), requires you to either disconnect from, or fundamentally alter your "moral compass". At the very least, you're making a conscious decision to make something happen that you know is hurtful and has significant consequences, at least in the game world. It's much different from just hearing about or observing something similar happening. Granted that it's all "imaginary", but it is simulation of real-life events, actions, and in many cases consequences, so it's hard to argue that there's no relationship at all.

That being said I am not someone who believes that games *cause* violent behavior in otherwise normal people. The fact that games aren't real and allow you to do these things *without* real-life consequences is important, and "play" is a key part of our development and life overall through adulthood. "Violent" play has been a part of human life probably since there have been humans, and animals do it too. I don't think there's any clear-cut answer, but I do think it's important to consider the difference between observing something happening and actually causing it to happen, whether virtual or otherwise.

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Paul Keith

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 04:22:05 PM »
Quote
it is simulation of real-life events, actions, and in many cases consequences, so it's hard to argue that there's no relationship at all.

This is false actually.

I mentioned this under the comments of that topic but most rape games or other simulations do not so much represent rape but more of a form of non-consent fantasy.

The same holds true for most violent videogames which is why the JFK simulator despite being less of a game and more of an attempted simulation through the eyes of the killer caused such a reaction.

The observation argument also holds no water as many simulations are merely "clicks" and then observe rather than real time actions and what few active control you have is silly and annoying and it involves rotating your mouse around a certain area. It's more like a future malware simulator if anything.

Another reason why the argument holds very little water is that even non-games like comics and videos of digital rape are perceived as negative/only for pathetic people or downright evil to view.

Finally in the macro aspect of it all, war games do not provide or produce any true moral justification of war otherwise developed countries would be very anti-war and informed of it's consequences. War games and other violent pseudo-realistic games are there to provide a more detached view of war - one closer to the movie Full Metal Jacket than say Platoon - with more realistic physics but not really more realistic morality.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 04:25:09 PM by Paul Keith »

Deozaan

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 05:03:12 AM »
most rape games or other simulations do not so much represent rape but more of a form of non-consent fantasy.

Don't try to make it sound less like rape. Rape is rape.


Unless... maybe all those violent games or simulations do not so much represent killing people but more a form of non-consent assisted euthanasia.


tomos

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 05:08:22 AM »
The big question really is how all sides can come to accept each other's terms.

No Paul,
I dont have to accept anyone's 'terms' here. I simply say this stuff [rape game] is unacceptable.
Tom
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 05:10:07 AM by tomos »

tomos

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 05:10:21 AM »
[...]
Unless... maybe all those violent games or simulations do not so much represent killing people but more a form of non-consent assisted euthanasia.

maybe that's it ;) :D
Tom

Paul Keith

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Re: The Fallacy of One Thing Leading to Another
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 06:15:32 AM »
most rape games or other simulations do not so much represent rape but more of a form of non-consent fantasy.

Don't try to make it sound less like rape. Rape is rape.


Unless... maybe all those violent games or simulations do not so much represent killing people but more a form of non-consent assisted euthanasia.

I'm not.

Let's apply your words to videogame violence for example:

Don't try to make it sound less like killing. Killing is killing.

Quote
Unless... maybe all those violent games or simulations do not so much represent killing people but more a form of non-consent assisted euthanasia.

This assumes the fantasy of videogame killing is non-consent assisted euthanasia.

However, this is where the two criterias if you dig deep enough differ...and where videogame violence seems even worse.

Videogame violence from the fantastic view isn't non-consent assisted euthanasia - if it were it would be more morally kind to the digital characters.

Instead videogame violence's appeal is instead killing with less or no consequences. Worse, this illusion becomes more promoted as violent videogames expands and improves in graphics. This is what mainly contributes to the idea that it can desensitize a person with problems.

Not that crappy rape games don't have that problem but as you elevate the two digital actions - rape encourages realistic emotional depth, violence encourages realistic physics.

Physics is much more desensitizing and impactful as far as desensitizing a person because the more you press forward with physics, the more it seems like reality minus consequences. The more you press with emotional character depth, the more it's about the humanity of the victim vs. the abuser.

Even a crappy game as the game mentioned there, you could almost contrast it with Custer's. One was so stupid that it's not even much of a rape game, the other despite it's crappiness in it's pursuit of graphics, ended up producing tears in the victim which in turn is the difference between the two genres.

That said, as I mentioned under that link, it's not about saying one is worse than the other.

It's merely to clarify the situation and there's no watering down of concepts if you may. It's simply clarification so that either side is at least more informed and we do not fall into a sort of technological hypocrisy where we make excuses for one and demonize the other unfairly.

That's said with regards to such post:

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No Paul,
I dont have to accept anyone's 'terms' here. I simply say this stuff [rape game] is unacceptable.

It can't be helped which is why it's a wicked problem - and it's a problem on all sides.

It's much easier to defend what you're biased against so things like this need to be clarified for those who are willing to listen to some form of objective validity. (Although I'm not saying my words are correct or I'm an expert but rather as with all things I post here - I try to provide the rarely mentioned or emotionally mentioned reasons in a more neutral but still biased manner.)

Edit: Btw I'm not saying violent videogames don't have any justification for violence. Rather I'm pointing out that after the justification there are very few games that fully explore the consequences of their actions. (Even open-ended rpgs) Again, not saying rape games fully explore the consequences but part of the process is about experiencing the actual act in more detailed perspective than merely pulling an action - like the trigger of a gun - and have someone later on provide a cutscene . (Often these Japanese games are about downfall relating to or resulting to rape so there's already that character study of a person's degraded thoughts.)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 06:34:25 AM by Paul Keith »