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Author Topic: Ubuntu Linux vs. Windows Vista  (Read 15434 times)
gjehle
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2007, 10:54:38 AM »

Quote
BTW - Windows NT systems [2000/2003/XP] are UNIX because they are POSIX compliant - I use UNIX in the common manner of "not Windows" though

aside from all you said, that makes me cringe.

i wont argue the posix compliancy, but that doesn't _make_ them UNIX.
for that it would have to fulfill SUS

dunno why i'm even bothering.....
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Renegade
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2007, 10:56:07 AM »

Renegade, you make the classic — and most persuasive — argument in favor of Windows. I've said (and I keep a log) of the very few Windows programs left that's keeping me from going Linux 24/7. ...

OK - here's the killer...

The platform isn't important. The number of developers is important.

More people developing for your platform means more people buy it. Platforms are all about compatibility and offerings. This is where MS really shines. And they shine with commercial reasons. That's not an opinion (as some people suggest) but it's a matter of fact. Those of us that have been around for a few years know this already.

I am NOT arguing about Windows vs. Ubuntu here. I am arguing that Ubuntu is not "Prime Time" ready because of software support. This isn't really something that's debatable. I'll let Google be my witness there.

While Ubuntu may be ready, the software support isn't there. That's the deal killer.

Personally, I wish that BSD was Prime Time ready. It's not. That's life. We work with what we have. :S
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zridling
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2007, 11:03:57 AM »

I think something that appears to have impressed the article's author is what a lot people are finding out with Ubuntu — it's the first time you install a Linux distro and everything works — wireless, video, printing, everything. Proprietary codecs, drivers, and other restricted software is two clicks away. Rereading it, the author seems new to Ubuntu, but this seems to have made a impression.
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2007, 11:06:23 AM »

Claiming that Linux is not ready for prime time in general is insanity, because it is all a matter of how you use your computer. It's not ready for everyone sure, but for many others it really is and have been for some time. Oh and regarding your claims that the GPL somehow prevents developers from creating commercial software for the platform, well my Linux version of Zend Studio would seem to indicate otherwise.
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 11:46:34 AM »

No axe to grind because I don't use l Linux but if you buy hardware with Linus in mind (eg. WiFi and Printers that are supported well) and you only do typical PC type things then Linux is fine for prime time. Having said that Windows 3.1 was probably fine for that too - and even MSDOS in its day.

The big probs only arise with unsupported hardware and if you have very specific software needs (eg. games and esp. professional level Graphics/Audio Visual). For Office type stuff, which I would guess is over 75% of the market, there is no problem.
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Renegade
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« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 11:56:09 AM »

Claiming that Linux is not ready for prime time in general is insanity, because it is all a matter of how you use your computer. It's not ready for everyone sure, but for many others it really is and have been for some time. Oh and regarding your claims that the GPL somehow prevents developers from creating commercial software for the platform, well my Linux version of Zend Studio would seem to indicate otherwise.

Ok - I know that I'm not going to be popular for this, but the GPL is VIRAL and it infects everything it touches. Linux is GPL and so is 99.99% of all the software for it. The rest is guilty of license infringement. There's just no way around that with a conserviative reading of the GPL. Period. There is no debate here. Read the GPL.

The GPL has hereto been a bastion of patent infringement. That won't go unnoticed.

Now let's get real. You admit that it is ready for everyone. But "everyone" is "Prime Time". I'm very far from insane in this. And you'll see that as the next few years prove me right. Ubuntu will not win people over. This is not a technology thing at all. It's a business things, and Ubuntu is losing. I'm not advocating any technology - merely stating facts.

The FSF is ruled by a bunch of radicals. And yes. Your proprietary software running on Ubuntu is illegal. Read the GPL again.

While Unbuntu may make sense for a small number of people, it's just not sane for most as you cannot develop software for a GPL'd platform commercially. It's just too hard.

The GPL advocates are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Read the GPL.

This is not about technology - it's about business and philosophy. Ubuntu loses. Windows wins. Windows has people behind it for money. Linux has nothing that's reliable. (In the grand scheme.)

This debate should be open and shut.

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« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2007, 12:14:27 PM »

As long as your application doesn't use any GPL'd code, there is absolutely nothing illegal releasing it as commercial software on whatever platform you choose (and I would think that Zend, the guys that actually made the core for PHP, would know a whole lot more about potential licensing issues than you or I do). You argue that by being ready for prime time, the OS has to be ready for absolutely everyone. Well guess what, neither Windows nor OSX is ready for absolutely everyone so by your standards there is no OS in existense today that is [ready for prime time].
If you instead argued that Windows is the best fit for more people that Linux currently is then yes, I would agree. If it was the perfect fit for everyone however, there would be no such thing as Linux, BSD, Mac OS etc.

EDIT: Just to add a few more examples on non-GPL software on Linux:

 - Adobe Flash Player/Plugin
 - PHP (Open Source yes, but not released under a GPL license)
 - Sun Java (they recently GPL'd it, but for years in was commercial software)
 - Apache (again, open source but not GPL)

You will have absolutely no luck trying to convince me that those are illegal just because they aren't released under a GPL license.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 12:25:45 PM by Dirhael » Logged

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gjehle
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« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2007, 03:55:09 PM »

renegade, if you would actually care about what you say you wouldn't talk like you have to spread propaganda

yes, there is a term called GPL-infection
it happens if you rip off other people's code! code they made public so you could use it NON PROFIT
while you're always argue with "commercial interests" written to your forehead.

maybe it's not about who sells more or less
maybe it's not about "prime time"

also, let me give you some insight into GPL and what it is.

GPL / GNU Public License
you can use code or libraries free of charge if you in return make available:
all changes to the code
your code that is directly linked against a GPLed library

LGPL / Lesser/Library GNU Public License
same as GPL except that you can LINK against LGPLed libraries without making your code public
some people think the wording is not 110% so they add another clause that clarifies this

MIT
is kinda: do whatever you want, i think MPL is similar
BSD is also part of that family

now here's the catchy part that a LOT of folks don't get.
even for GPLed code, there is still a COPYRIGHT holder.
the coder who wrote the code.

said coder decided to offer his code to the public under the terms of said LICENSE.
the coder is free to do whatever else he wants to do with his code.
one thing he could do would be to sell it to you if you wanted to use it in your commercial software.
or he could even give you a "i allow you to commercially use this piece of code if you tattoo 'omgwtf' onto your left arm"-license.

do you come to a realization?
i sure hope so.
GPL may be infective, but if you get infected you did it either out of ignorance, or willingly by violating the rules.
in both cases, your fault, not the GPL's fault, nor the coders, not anyone else's, except for you.

don't blame someone for sharing something he/she created for free that you, oh so sadly, can't use in a commercial product from which you would gain money (at least partially) based on work done by others.

i did my deal of research on this topic, i too work at a company that sells software or hardware on which software runs. and yes, there are products that are based on linux, and YES, we can sell them. while there is still proprietary code running on them. it works. legally perfectly ok.

some facts:
the linux kernel is GPL
a damn lot of the user space libraries are LGPL
if (as i think you do) like to click on buttons, trolltech's Qt is dual-licensed as GPL and QTLICENSE.
yes, they sell it, you can buy it, awesome, isn't it?

even if something is GPL.
if you really care about it, go contact the original author and give him some frickin' credit and he might actually think about other ways to offer a personal license to you.
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Renegade
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« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2007, 08:38:04 PM »

Quote
You will have absolutely no luck trying to convince me that those are illegal just because they aren't released under a GPL license.

I was exaggerating. Yes. There is non-GPL software that runs legally.

But really? PHP, Java and Apache? Those are basically server applications and not really end user applications for the desktop.

Quote
You argue that by being ready for prime time, the OS has to be ready for absolutely everyone.

No. I'm arguing that the software support for Ubuntu isn't ready for Prime Time.

Quote
Well guess what, neither Windows nor OSX is ready for absolutely everyone so by your standards there is no OS in existense today that is [ready for prime time].

No. I'm arguing that "Prime Time" is mass market, not "everyone". However, there is little difference. For those people that fall outside, they are simply in niche markets, e.g. POS software, fluid dynamics, etc. Those applicatons often still run on the OSes that we're talking about, but sometime on others, e.g. Cray's OS for scientific & engineering applications.

Quote
If you instead argued that Windows is the best fit for more people that Linux currently is then yes, I would agree.

Not just more, but massively more people.

@gjehle - You *can* sell GPL software for profit. While it isn't popular, it is done. Search eBay for audio editors and you'll see Audacity being sold there.

Here's a quick one? When was the last time that anyone ran World of Warcraft or Grand Theft Auto on Ubuntu? The gamers drive a lot of the computing industry, e.g. Hardware production, etc. Again, Ubuntu is lacking software options and is pretty much out of the market for games. OSX has a enough time there.

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zridling
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2007, 01:40:41 AM »

_________Long post follows. My apologies for your patience. _________

The adoption of the open source Eclipse IDE is a great asset to Linux. Eclipse is not just software, it's a community that has its own distros. And once you get beyond Photoshop (and yes, GIMP doesn't really compare), you see lots of industry steadily moving development off the Windows platform, from IBM, Google, Borland, IBM, QNX Software, Rational Software, etc. If I recall, the "Photoshop" cry was the last thing Apple was heard claiming over and over as they nearly went extinct trying to keep people from using it on Windows. Then they "Jobbed" the stock options, built the DRM iPod, and have "roared back" to 4% share with OS X (okay I'm trying not to laugh either). Therefore I take Renegade's arguments at face value; that is, he's really making a straightforward, simple point — when you get down to Level-1, just you, the keyboard and mouse, we're all looking for the best software. "Support" however, is relative. Sites like LinuxQuestions.org will help you do anything with any problem. And they won't charge you the mandatory minimum $49 Microsoft asks.

The march of open source is relentless, if for no other reasons than by freeing customers from proprietary lock-in and lack of choice. Interoperability is created by open standards (which is different from open source). Just as they have for Apache, BIND, DNS, Eclipse, Fedora, Firefox, Hibernate, JBoss, Kerberos, LDAP, MySQL, Perl, PHP, Python, PostgreSQL, Sendmail, Tomcat. The list goes on. No, these are not desktop applications, but where would customers be without these technologies? All these were developed openly and I didn't have to pay one dime for any of them, much less continue to pay to license them. The GPL is a GREAT thing, otherwise, why should a corporation make profit off the hard work of others who gave their expertise, time, and efforts freely? On the other hand, Microsoft thinks so much of its Office "ribbon" that it won't license its look and structure to direct competitors. Thank goodness for that!

____________
My second point is skewed differently, in that Microsoft has not demonstrated any loyalty to me. In fact, like Adobe et al., Microsoft has succeeded only in criminalizing the consumer. Virtually every "innovation" in the last several years has been to keep me from doing something. In Vista, Microsoft has made certain content files not copyable. Vista also makes it very, very slow to copy, rename, or delete ordinary files (see the Technet article linked at the post). I won't even address the user-hostile EULA, WGA, OGA, and Windows Activation... (I didn't steal your software. I PAID for it. Why are you still treating me as though I'm a shoplifter?) I'll never begrudge Microsoft the freedom to make a profit. But then Microsoft should not begrudge me from walking away from them; further, they should stop actively hindering and frustrating me from using open source software through amoral patent litigation, supporting SCO lawsuits, bogus anti-Linux surveys, and not to mention how they're gaming ISO NBs right now for MS-OOXML.

Until a few years ago, I loved Microsoft. I still use and enjoy apps like Expression Web. But ANY company, ANY developer, ANY one who treats me (and my money) as if to presume I'm a thief, a pirate, and a criminal until I prove otherwise everytime I boot my computer doesn't need me, much less want me at all. So why should I look favorably at anything they do when I'm viewed under that perspective? I guess I'm trying to say that no one gave Microsoft more chances than I did over the past twenty years. When's Microsoft going to give me a break? Apple had it's day in the mid-80s (briefly), then Microsoft went on a 20-year run, but the encroachment of Open Source will continue not because I support it, but because industry and governments do. Desktop-friendly distros like Ubuntu, Fedora, Xandros, Freespire, and others will only pick up speed over the life of Vista and its successors.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 08:13:12 AM by zridling » Logged

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gjehle
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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2007, 02:36:55 AM »

@gjehle - You *can* sell GPL software for profit. While it isn't popular, it is done. Search eBay for audio editors and you'll see Audacity being sold there.

just admit that you're running out of stuff to blame on <X>
i'm not talking about the fishy practice of selling re-branded audacity copies on ebay..
i'm talking of the copyright holders selling their own proprietary software.
not the GPL part.


Here's a quick one? When was the last time that anyone ran World of Warcraft or Grand Theft Auto on Ubuntu? The gamers drive a lot of the computing industry, e.g. Hardware production, etc. Again, Ubuntu is lacking software options and is pretty much out of the market for games. OSX has a enough time there.

fyi, you can run WOW on linux without much difficulty, two years ago.
not native, but it works. and it runs fast.

and if you really start to get bitchy about this...
wine/winex/cedega/xen/vmware ... there's plenty of virtual machines and emulators...
yes, you read correctly, there's a vmware version for linux.. you can install windows on it..

and back to your mass market BS
who holds the major share if it comes to webservers and web tech backends in general ? - yes open source.
there are people getting payed to setup/maintain that stuff ... you can make money with it, it's called service and support.

come on... just give up :p


last but not least, some _personal_ thoughts about linux
keep the mass market stupid users away, they are too annoying to deal with because lots of them expect everything to be like windows, expect the same kind of support you can get from MS just for free, etc etc.
i'd be more than happy with linux not making prime time. honestly.


i don't care about how many people use linux or will use linux in the future, right now it's already more than enough of them.
ubuntu has no commercial interests, they are giving it away for free, you can even order batches of CDs online that get shipped to you for free, as in beer.
there is not need for a "mass market" or "prime time"

prime time... mass market... geee, capitalism...
maybe the whole mindset behind open source doesn't go that well with ... capitalism.. ever thought of it?
and yet.. it works, superbly, for millions of people.

and i think this might be one of the reasons so many folks are "offended" by linux.
> look at those hippies, sharing everything with no money to gain! they are stupid!
> oh wait! they have a huge community and userbase, and the development is going on, stuff is getting better
> omgomg they are stealing minimal amounts of marketshare from us, they are a threat! go kill em!
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« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2007, 03:20:53 AM »

Linux isn't ready for prime time - and that's just the way it is.

And it's a real bloody shame. While the NT kernel is clearly superior to both BSD and Linux, I'm sick and tired of the way Microsoft are running things. I still have a thin hope that Vista will nail the coffin, but people are lemmings.

The only real alternative to Windows as of now is Apple OS X, but that's really a matter of plague versus cholera - Apple is, if possible, even more hooked on the idea of DRM and whatnot than Microsoft is.

Closed source software under linux is a real mess. It's fscking messy to do because it's not a coherent and standardized platform, and you have to re-invent the wheel over and over and over again if you cannot use GPL code (which, duh, you generally can't for closed-source software). Like it or not, but opensource isn't what innovates the world and delivers the paycheck.

GPL is an atrocity. LGPL is bearable. BSD license is nice. Something like the LZMA license is imho how it really should be done:
SPECIAL EXCEPTION: Igor Pavlov, as the author of this code, expressly permits you to statically or dynamically link your code (or bind by name) to the files from LZMA SDK without subjecting your linked code to the terms of the CPL or GNU LGPL. Any modifications or additions to files from LZMA SDK, however, are subject to the GNU LGPL or CPL terms.
- keep the original code free, but don't be viral.

Quote from: Renegade
When was the last time that anyone ran World of Warcraft or Grand Theft Auto on Ubuntu?
Both should run pretty well with the (commercial smiley) Cedega, although I wouldn't risk The Warden getting me banned from WOW (fascist blizzard fscks).

If people don't like linux getting compared to windows, perhaps people should try and stop selling linux as a viable alternative. It's not.
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« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2007, 06:44:04 PM »

ubuntu has no commercial interests

[...]

prime time... mass market... geee, capitalism...

 huh



the NT kernel is clearly superior to both BSD and Linux,
[...]
GPL is an atrocity
[...]
If people don't like linux getting compared to windows, perhaps people should try and stop selling linux as a viable alternative. It's not.


 huh

How? Considering which parameters ?

References from real peer reviewed studies would help...
Or, at least, lets define the boundaries of the comparison or comments.

Aren't these debates a bit too... abstract, subjective and general ?

(Sincerely... Maybe I just don't get it)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 07:16:24 PM by Armando » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2007, 07:15:12 PM »

I know this is my first post in this forum, but this issue "Ubuntu" Vs "Vista" is something that has really stung me into action.

You see, what happened to me is that on the first day that "Vista" was available to the public I went to my nearest computer store and purchased a "Vista" upgrade worth AU$300+. That day, I went home immediately and began the install on my home made Pentium processor computer. The install took me 8 hours. Yes, that is right, 8 hours and still even after that time I did not have an operative way to support my dual flat screen monitors, and it did not allow me to use my security software as it is not supported my Vista.

Now that was all OK with me to start with. So I fired up Vista and began to use it normally. Within the first 3 hours Vista displayed a message "Your installation of Windows is not valid. Please visit here to validate your copy of Windows". So dutifully I did so. The automated method of validating the software didn't work. So I was sent to a page outlining my support options. I chose to talk to a Microsoft support person. Over the next hour and a half on the phone he tried everything that was on his screen about how to fix the problem. In the end he told me to completely uninstall Vista and reinstall it which I did over the next 24 hours.

After reinstalling and then beginning to run Vista the blasted message came up again. I called the support person and quoted my case number. A different person was assigned to my case. She tried everything that was on her screen. She was a little more persistent. We spent three hours trying to overcome this problem. In the end she said, "Sir, as I have completed the fixes for this problem and you are still receiving those messages, your software must not be possible to validate. Go back to the store you purchased it from and obtain a valid copy." I went to my software store. They would not exchange or even give my money back.

So here I am with a copy of Vista for which I have paid good money and it won't operate on my hardware. As soon as the "not valid" message appears the system begins shutting down and does not allow any new processes to be started.

I obtained a copy of Ubuntu. Admittedly it did take two hours to download. But then it took me three hours to install it. I had issues on how to get my dual monitors operating, and how to connect to my wi-fi network. I solved those issues on the Ubuntu forums, which, guys, you should have seen how quickly I had my answers and workarounds.

I now run Ubuntu.
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« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2007, 07:20:54 PM »


I now run Ubuntu.

How dare you ! your only two valid options should've been OSX and OSX.   smiley
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 07:24:58 PM by Armando » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2007, 07:21:14 PM »

Just a reminder:

A human life's worth isn't based on the OS a person runs.

This whole Ubuntu vs Vista argument reminds me of many on the 9x vs XP issue and why someone would choose to run 9x.

The reasons for running any OS are personal. If you like it, run it. If your hardware can handle it, run it. If you can find the software to do what you want, use it. It doesn't really matter what someone else thinks about it.

Don't bash another person's personal choices or opinions just because they differ from yours. These choices are often based on feelings and not facts. When people feel the need to defend their feelings, they tend to get in trouble trying to back up their valid opinions with facts...and they shouldn't feel the need to do that. When they do, things often come out a mess and arguments erupt.

We don't need OS bigotry. There is enough other kinds of bigotry in this world already...we don't need more reasons for conflict.

All that being said, Ubuntu is available for free. There is no reason why you can't give it a try if you want to see for yourself and form your own opinions about the whole experience.

I would probably be more willing to try Ubuntu than Vista, based on this fact alone.
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« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2007, 10:11:32 PM »

Welcome to the site DrJtoo!

That's quite an amazing story you've got there!
Sounds like the store you bought your Vista copy from is partially in fault by not being willing to reimburse you. But even if they would, it sounds like a horrible experience! Sad
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« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2007, 10:18:10 PM »

Welcome to the site DrJtoo!

That's quite an amazing story you've got there!
Sounds like the store you bought your Vista copy from is partially in fault by not being willing to reimburse you. But even if they would, it sounds like a horrible experience! Sad


Indeed !

(And, yup : welcome, DrJtoo.)
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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2007, 02:03:27 AM »

DrJtoo, you should call Microsoft support again (for the 3rd but hopefully last time, and I hopey ou're not paying for these calls). Ask them to escalate your issue to the next tier, and give them the details of the store where you bought Vista. Microsoft should track down the licensed copy based on your key and at the very least, refund your money, since this is a clear case of the product not working as advertised. This is exactly what a lot of people fear with activation and is the price genuine users have to pay while pirates enjoy life.

I am not suggesting you go back to Vista or even give it a 2nd chance based on your experience, but surely you must get your money back!
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zridling
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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2007, 04:12:33 AM »

What was I saying about criminalizing the consumer?

App103 — so now it's religion, politics, and OSes?!  cheesy  Browsers often evoke the same emotions in us.

In the end, the OS is software and as long as it works (unlike the rare DrJtoo's experience), use and enjoy it. However, imo the OS should largely be transparent and stay out of my way. When it begins to intrude and get fussy, I'm looking for a way out.
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« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2007, 10:41:03 AM »

Dell seems to like UBUNTU ...

http://news.zdnet.com/210...-6180419.html?tag=nl.e589
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« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2007, 11:16:09 AM »

I know that it's something of a fopah to say, but I actually like XP.  Before XP, I actually liked 2000.  Before 2000, I actually liked 98... well, maybe that's exaggerating, but I never had any major problems with 98.

Vista, Ubuntu, and OSX don't offer anything that is compelling enough to make me switch from XP for my day o day computing tasks.  I don't care to jump through all the hoops that a linux system requires, Vista seems like little more than eye candy, and I am turned off by the Apple mentality.

Carl
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« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2007, 03:33:34 PM »

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I am turned off by the Apple mentality

There is a good deal of zealotry in different "OS Camps", and it really is annoying. "Macs never get viruses..." etc. etc. Most of it is rarely true. Especially now with Vista as MS has addressed a lot of issues (I only mention that because MS seems the be the one that people like to beat up on).

Different OSes have different strengths and weaknesses. The Windows weakness is the number of users that it has - enough to attract virus writers for profit. That's a major problem.

I think you've got the right attitude there Carl -
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don't offer anything that is compelling enough to make me switch from XP for my day o day computing tasks

If what you have works for what you need, then that's good enough.

"Better is the enemy of good." smiley
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cthorpe
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« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2007, 10:17:19 PM »

Well.....  embarassed I'm posting this message from Ubuntu....  Ain't that a kick in the pants?

http://www.donationcoder....x.php?topic=8326.msg59787

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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2007, 08:19:34 AM »

[cthorpe]: ...I actually like XP.

Me, too. Although Vista is growing on me after three full months. All new software for me must have Linux versions now or I won't purchase it from this point forward. I've got one foot in the Linux boat, the other on the Vista shore.
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