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Last post Author Topic: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux  (Read 11273 times)

Stephen66515

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Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux, and Visual Studio Community

Quote
It's happening. It's the reason that a lot of us came to work for Microsoft, and I think it's both the end of an era but also the beginning of amazing things to come.

The .NET 2015 wave of releases is upon us. Here's what's happening and we announced it today in New York. There's a lot here, so drink it all in slowly.

Be sure to check out all the blog posts I'm linking to at the end, but here's my personal rollup and take on the situation.

We are serious about open source and cross platform.
.NET Core 5 is the modern, componentized framework that ships via NuGet. That means you can ship a private version of the .NET Core Framework with your app. Other apps' versions can't change your app's behavior.
We are building a .NET Core CLR for Windows, Mac and Linux and it will be both open source and it will be supported by Microsoft. It'll all happen at https://github.com/dotnet.
We are open sourcing the RyuJit and the .NET GC and making them both cross-platform.
ASP.NET 5 will work everywhere.
ASP.NET 5 will be available for Windows, Mac, and Linux. Mac and Linux support will come soon and it's all going to happen in the open on GitHub at https://github.com/aspnet.
ASP.NET 5 will include a web server for Mac and Linux called kestrel built on libuv. It's similar to the one that comes with node, and you could front it with Nginx for production, for example.
Developers should have a great experience.
There is a new FREE SKU for Visual Studio for open source developers and students called Visual Studio Community. It supports extensions and lots more all in one download. This is not Express. This is basically Pro.
Visual Studio 2015 and ASP.NET 5 will support gulp, grunt, bower and npm for front end developers.
A community team (including myself and Sayed from the ASP.NET and web tools team have created the OmniSharp organization along with the Kulture build system as a way to bring real Intellisense to Sublime, Atom, Brackets, Vim, and Emacs on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Check out http://www.omnisharp.net as well as blog posts by team members Jonathan Channon
Even more open source.
Much of the .NET Core Framework 4.6 and its Reference Source source is going on GitHub. It's being relicensed under the MIT license, so Mono (and you!) can use that source code in their .NET implementations.
There's a new hub for Microsoft open source that is hosted GitHub at http://microsoft.github.io.
Open sourcing .NET makes good sense. It makes good business sense, good community sense, and today everyone at Microsoft see this like we do.


Source: http://www.hanselman...StudioCommunity.aspx



This could be a MASSIVE game changer...simply...wow.

mouser

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 12:10:10 AM »
It's hard for me to understand the details but i'll just say that there is a lot to like about .net and the one thing that has always held me back from considering it too seriously is the fact that i don't want to get too committed to a language that is not truly first class across multiple platforms.  If at some point .net is really a viable cross platform solution I will take another long look at it.

mwb1100

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 01:06:55 AM »
Wow - even just the news about VS Community is great.  They've already released VS Community 2013 (http://www.visualstu...tudio-vs#d-community), and from piecing together information from a couple places, it's not just for students and open source developers.  See

    http://www.visualstudio.com/products/visual-studio-community-vs


Quote
Q: Who can use Visual Studio Community?
A: Here’s how individual developers can use Visual Studio Community:

    Any individual developer can use Visual Studio Community to create their own free or paid apps.

Here’s how Visual Studio Community can be used in organizations:

    An unlimited number of users within an organization can use Visual Studio Community for the following scenarios: in a classroom learning environment, for academic research, or for contributing to open source projects.
    For all other usage scenarios: In non-enterprise organizations, up to 5 users can use Visual Studio Community. In enterprise organizations (meaning those with >250 PCs or > $1MM in annual revenue), no use is permitted beyond the open source, academic research, and classroom learning environment scenarios described above.

Q: How does Visual Studio Community 2013 compare to other Visual Studio editions?
A: Visual Studio Community 2013 includes all the great functionality of Visual Studio Professional 2013, designed and optimized for individual developers, students, open source contributors, and small teams.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but from the last answer there, it's essentially VS 2013 Pro with a license that limits use in organizations.  Individual developers and very small teams can use it however they want (including commercially).  Being VS 2013 Pro also means that extensions such as Visual Assist X and ReSharper will work with it.

As far as open sourcing the various .NET technologies, I think that's great news.  They're even using the MIT license (for some or all?) instead of some bastardized MS 'open ' license.  Awesome.  If nothing else, I look forward to ASP.NET web hosting that's as cheap as PHP web hosting.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 01:14:57 AM by mwb1100 »

phitsc

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 01:37:23 AM »
Wow! I think this is the most surprising, most amazing, most everything announcement from MS I have seen in my whole career!

I was at a public MS PR event just yesterday where there was no mention of this whatsoever.

40hz

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 05:24:46 AM »
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

Beware of geeks bearing gifts.

Stephen66515

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 05:37:32 AM »
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

Beware of geeks bearing gifts.
* Stephen66515 offers 40hz a gift

 ;D

phitsc

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 05:43:31 AM »
We didn't get any gifts at all at the above mentioned event :(

MilesAhead

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 05:56:37 AM »
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

Beware of geeks bearing gifts.

Is it just Cloud for the foreseeable future?  It mentioned something about core components becoming open source.  Sounds like we have to write them doesn't it?

40hz

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 06:06:52 AM »
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

Beware of geeks bearing gifts.
* Stephen66515 offers 40hz a gift

 ;D

No thanks.  ;D ;D

What would I do with a big wooden horse anyway? ;)

Stoic Joker

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 06:21:04 AM »
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

Beware of geeks bearing gifts.
* Stephen66515 offers 40hz a gift

 ;D

No thanks.  ;D ;D

What would I do with a big wooden horse anyway? ;)

It's a great place to store your excess soldiers..

MilesAhead

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 06:26:12 AM »
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

Beware of geeks bearing gifts.
* Stephen66515 offers 40hz a gift

 ;D

No thanks.  ;D ;D

What would I do with a big wooden horse anyway? ;)

I always thought collecting large wooden horses was a bit of a strange hobby.  :)

Renegade

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 07:27:30 AM »
Huh?!? I just about creamed myself there.

Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

This I worry about. We'll see though.

However, this time around it won't be so obvious. We'll need to be much more alert.

If it does turn out to be genuine, I will be a very happy camper! :D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 08:14:32 AM »
Huh?!? I just about creamed myself there.

Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. Once again.  :-\

This I worry about. We'll see though.

However, this time around it won't be so obvious. We'll need to be much more alert.

Interesting patent verbiage from Microsoft on this (full text here):

Quote
Microsoft Patent Promise for .NET Libraries and Runtime Components
Microsoft Corporation and its affiliates ("Microsoft") promise not to assert
any .NET Patents against you for making, using, selling, offering for sale,
importing, or distributing Covered Code, as part of either a .NET Runtime or
as part of any application designed to run on a .NET Runtime.
If you file, maintain, or voluntarily participate in any claim in a lawsuit
alleging direct or contributory patent infringement by any Covered Code, or
inducement of patent infringement by any Covered Code, then your rights under
this promise will automatically terminate.


This promise is not an assurance that (i) any .NET Patents are valid or
enforceable, or (ii) Covered Code does not infringe patents or other
intellectual property rights of any third party. No rights except those
expressly stated in this promise are granted, waived, or received by
Microsoft, whether by implication, exhaustion, estoppel, or otherwise.

This is a personal promise directly from Microsoft to you, and you agree as a
condition of benefiting from it that no Microsoft rights are received from
suppliers, distributors, or otherwise from any other person in connection with
this promise.


A couple of things:

(1) I don't know what the legal ramifications of "a personal promise" are. But it apparently isn't the same thing as a" contract" or a "guarantee" - otherwise why make such a distinction? Pretty vague if you ask me. Be interesting to see how something like that would play out in court if push came to shove.

(2) If you discover something in .Net that you think is infringing on one of your patents, it looks like you waived the "personal promise" not to be sued for infringement of Microsoft's claimed patents on .Net

That's a bit of a double-bind that gets Microsoft neatly off the hook either way.

Quote
If it does turn out to be genuine, I will be a very happy camper! :D

That seems to be more the case with the Windows dev crowd than the Linux developers and maintainers - except for the Mono project, which is generally regarded as a "trojan project."

But time will tell.

I'm sure the in-house biz devs will be happy hearing this since they can now more easily port their proprietary .Net apps over to a less expensive OS. Won't their bean counters and upper management be pleased to hear that! :-\

mwb1100

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 12:49:12 PM »
Regarding the "Microsoft Patent Promise": the way I read it (and I'm not a lawyer or any kind of intellectual property expert) is that

1) if you sue MS for patent infringement, then MS terminates it's promise not to sue you for patent infringement on the .NET patents
2) the personal promise essentially means that MS makes the promise for itself, not for any other entity. In other words, if someone else claims a patent on the .NET stuff, MS isn't necessarily protecting you from those claims, even if MS has a patent license from that party.

These seem reasonable to me, but I'm reading it as a normal human being, not as a shifty legal eagle.

40hz

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 01:45:15 PM »
^ It's a little more tricky than it looks.

Basically, under this wording, if you are using .NET and you ever assert an IP claim against Microsoft for any reason, you automatically become a provable infringer on Microsoft’s IP because their "personal promise" is automatically withdrawn. So in short,: use .NET, try to sue us, and you're now an infringer.

So while your infringement claim remains to be proven, Microsoft’s infringement claim against you is already established.

Two guesses who would win in a tit-for-tat legal confrontation like that regardless of the merits? (Hint: bigger is usually the winner in IP infringement cases.)

That's a win-win for Microsoft. Their IP is fully protected either way. Your IP protection is anybody's guess.


superboyac

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 02:52:10 PM »
^ It's a little more tricky than it looks.

Basically, under this wording, if you are using .NET and you ever assert an IP claim against Microsoft for any reason, you automatically become a provable infringer on Microsoft’s IP because their "personal promise" is automatically withdrawn. So in short,: use .NET, try to sue us, and you're now an infringer.

So while your infringement claim remains to be proven, Microsoft’s infringement claim against you is already established.

Two guesses who would win in a tit-for-tat legal confrontation like that regardless of the merits? (Hint: bigger is usually the winner in IP infringement cases.)

That's a win-win for Microsoft. Their IP is fully protected either way. Your IP protection is anybody's guess.


Good gawd.  good catch.

Jibz

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 04:03:43 PM »
^ It's a little more tricky than it looks.

Basically, under this wording, if you are using .NET and you ever assert an IP claim against Microsoft for any reason, you automatically become a provable infringer on Microsoft’s IP because their "personal promise" is automatically withdrawn. So in short,: use .NET, try to sue us, and you're now an infringer.

It says "by any covered code", so I do not understand it as any legal action against MS on anything. It sounds a lot like the patent clause in the Apache license.

It looks like the GPLv3 has something similar as well.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 04:10:55 PM by Jibz »

mouser

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 04:25:59 PM »
Guys, if you find yourself in a situation where you are in a legal battle with microsoft, these clauses are not going to be your primary problem.  Your primary problem will be raising a few billion dollars to pay your legal fees.  :-\

Stoic Joker

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 06:06:20 PM »
Guys, if you find yourself in a situation where you are in a legal battle with microsoft, these clauses are not going to be your primary problem.  Your primary problem will be raising a few billion dollars to pay your legal fees.  :-\

Nailed It!!! ...David and Goliath was a fun little fairy tail ... That's never gonna happen..

40hz

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 08:03:51 PM »
Guys, if you find yourself in a situation where you are in a legal battle with microsoft, these clauses are not going to be your primary problem.  Your primary problem will be raising a few billion dollars to pay your legal fees.  :-\

Nailed It!!! ...David and Goliath was a fun little fairy tail ... That's never gonna happen..

All the more reason to not make it any easier for them than necessary. And their invulnerability not a foregone conclusion. The EFF and OSF have got them to back off on more than one occasion. Microsoft is like any predator. It would rather not risk injury if at all possible. If they think a legal precedent might get set that would work against them, their legal strategy has always been to back off and render the allegations against them moot rather than duke it out.

But better yet, why not just say: "Thanks - but no thanks." 8)

phitsc

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2014, 03:00:48 AM »
I'm a bit surprised most of the discussion is about the legal implications, instead of the technical implications of this announcement, here on donation lawy.. ähm coders.

Renegade

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2014, 05:19:59 AM »
I'm a bit surprised most of the discussion is about the legal implications, instead of the technical implications of this announcement, here on donation lawy.. ähm coders.

I'm not surprised in the least.

Throw heavy chains on anyone, and they'll notice. It's hard to focus on important things when you have non-stop distractions that can ruin you.
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MilesAhead

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2014, 05:28:48 AM »
I'm a bit surprised most of the discussion is about the legal implications, instead of the technical implications of this announcement, here on donation lawy.. ähm coders.

Is anyone involved with Mono?  I wonder what the implications are for its future.

Renegade

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2014, 05:35:18 AM »
I've written software to run on Mono, but that's all.

The Mono IRC channel is very active with Miguel and the Mono team being very active.
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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Re: Announcing .NET 2015 - .NET as Open Source, .NET on Mac and Linux
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2014, 07:12:40 AM »
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