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Last post Author Topic: The Declaration of Independance- some scholars say we've been reading it wrong.  (Read 8461 times)

Vurbal

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That would scare the b'jeez out of me given the mindset of the freaks in power that do everything for our "safety".


Don't misunderstand me. I don't mean the government needs to rewrite it. I'm referring to the next time we get enough of the mentally numb masses to pull their thumbs out of their asses and do something democratic. That's always the end of the cycles we're talking about. OTOH the quicker the government runs things into the ground, the better our odds people will stand up and do something meaningful.

I'm not really even saying I think it's going to be the end result this time around. We have further to fall before I see it as viable. I just figure those of us who are already 10 steps ahead should focus on the long game. Everything else is just dwelling on the problem.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

app103

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But it doesn't matter.

Perhaps I'm not being clear enough.

The psychopaths out there will read anything and come up with anything. That it is the declaration of independence doesn't matter -- it is good enough that it was written in the same century by the same basic group as the fellows who wrote the Constitution. Logic doesn't matter. Reason is irrelevant. The psychopaths follow the same basic patterns all the time. They grasp at straws and bray like donkeys until they get their way. We see this regularly. The entire SOPA/PIPA/etc. thing was a good example. The same nutjobs came back with the same nonsense again. They latch onto anything remotely related to any issue and pursue it until they get it. They don't take no for an answer. This will be the same basic deal because it's "close enough".

But why bother with the Declaration of Independence, which predates the founding of this country, when there are so many better documents to mess with that have much greater potential for accomplishing so much, in the way of a psychopathic power grab? Why not attack the Constitution itself, and reveal it as a complete fraud, and produce a document declaring your family as the rightful royal heirs to the crown of the USA, as willed to your family by the childless George Washington himself, this country's first King? Then march your gun nut psychopathic patriot army right into Washington DC, kick the President, Congress, and the Supreme Court off your brand new property, put yourself in charge of everything, and either shoot or lock up anyone that disagrees with you (without a trial), and make everyone live by your psychopathic rules?

If you are going to distort history and use its historical documents to do it, might as well go all the way with your psychopathic distortions.  You would have a better chance of success messing with the Constitution and the last will & testament of George Washington to do it, than a punctuation mark in the Declaration of Independence. ;)

Renegade

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But it doesn't matter.

Perhaps I'm not being clear enough.

The psychopaths out there will read anything and come up with anything. That it is the declaration of independence doesn't matter -- it is good enough that it was written in the same century by the same basic group as the fellows who wrote the Constitution. Logic doesn't matter. Reason is irrelevant. The psychopaths follow the same basic patterns all the time. They grasp at straws and bray like donkeys until they get their way. We see this regularly. The entire SOPA/PIPA/etc. thing was a good example. The same nutjobs came back with the same nonsense again. They latch onto anything remotely related to any issue and pursue it until they get it. They don't take no for an answer. This will be the same basic deal because it's "close enough".

But why bother with the Declaration of Independence, which predates the founding of this country, when there are so many better documents to mess with that have much greater potential for accomplishing so much, in the way of a psychopathic power grab? Why not attack the Constitution itself, and reveal it as a complete fraud, and produce a document declaring your family as the rightful royal heirs to the crown of the USA, as willed to your family by the childless George Washington himself, this country's first King? Then march your gun nut psychopathic patriot army right into Washington DC, kick the President, Congress, and the Supreme Court off your brand new property, put yourself in charge of everything, and either shoot or lock up anyone that disagrees with you (without a trial), and make everyone live by your psychopathic rules?

If you are going to distort history and use its historical documents to do it, might as well go all the way with your psychopathic distortions.  You would have a better chance of success messing with the Constitution and the last will & testament of George Washington to do it, than a punctuation mark in the Declaration of Independence. ;)

You're trying to be rational. Stop.

They're not rational (in the sense that you or I would normally ascribe to "rational" - but which is not to say there isn't a method to their madness).

Ever listen to Congressional debates (or parliamentary debates, etc.)?

In my car, the radio station that gets the best reception and that isn't just complete crap runs Parliament House all the time, so I listen to quite a fair bit of what the nutjobs have to say.

Very little of it is remotely rational. It's overwhelmingly emotional appeals and drivel with a truckload of lies mixed in for good measure. And whenever they're not screaming at each other with lies & emotional appeals, they're having a nice big circle-jerk about one thing or another, and patting each other on the back for the wonderful jobs they all do.

Quite literally, the majority of speeches I hear eventually get around to "think of the children". Really. Mining tax? Think of the children. Veterans affairs? Think of the children. Carbon tax? Think of the children. Janitors in government buildings? Think of the children. All of those are actual debates & speeches over the last little while in Parliament House where... wait for it... everyone was asked to "think of the children".

Just so that you don't think I'm making this up...

http://parlinfo.aph....2eac7c98e8%2F0021%22

Quote
So do not come into this place, Senator Wong, with your hypocrisy and tell us about intergenerational burden, when you left our children and our grandchildren with an enormous debt and deficit disaster.

http://parlinfo.aph....69e2e4f785%2F0184%22

Quote
Renewable energy technologies are doing well, not only as a new innovative form of industry but also in providing a benefit to the environment, to the community, to our children and to future generations.
...
There I was reminded about future generations and about the importance of these bills in creating a sustainable future for our young people and for their children to come.

http://parlinfo.aph....ce06f942d0%2F0262%22

Quote
My only comment on the debate is that the hard work of the Abbott government in fixing the financial mess that our government finds itself in because of the previous government will mean that those leaving us will live a better future—their future lives will be better, as will be those of their children and grandchildren.

But, it's not just Down Under...

http://www.gpo.gov/f...HRG-113hhrg79938.htm

Quote
I have included a picture of Russell with his two children
at the end of my testimony and the reason I've done that is, I
think it is important for all of us, when I read the Suicide
Data Report, the one thing that is missing in this Suicide Data
Report are the names of the individuals, the names of the
families, the names of the loved ones that are affected and
impacted by these tragic deaths. And I think it is important
for all of us to remember that.

For another example of "the children":

http://www.huffingto...censo_b_5564553.html

Quote
This January, under government pressure, many of the United Kingdom’s internet service providers (ISPs) — together providing over 90 percent of the country’s home broadband connections — turned on “porn filters” for all of their customers, requiring them to actively turn off the filters to view any content deemed unsuitable. Prime Minister David Cameron pushed the program through under the guise of protecting the “innocence of children,” but as warned by opponents of Internet regulation, the filters are now blocking large amounts of clean content.

Hmm... ain't quite working out like it was advertised, eh? 8)

You're never going to "win" a debate against that kind of lunacy by trying to be sane or rational. Logic and reason have nothing to do with anything there.

It's better to look at the reality distortion field that they exist in, see "how they rationalise" and then use that distorted lens to project where things will end up.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Vurbal

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One convenient thing about being autistic is that crap has never worked on me. Even as a teenager, Ronald "The Great Communicator" Reagan just seemed like a doddering old half wit because all I paid attention to was the actual words. Now that speeches, press conferences, debates, and the like are available in transcript form almost in real time it's not even an issue.

Even the average moron on the street is harder to fool that way. Too bad the average idiot is also to lazy to read what they can watch on TV. It didn't get the nickname Idiot Box for nothing.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

app103

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You're trying to be rational. Stop.

Wait...what? You thought that was rational?  :o

I am not too sure how I should interpret that:-\

Too bad the average idiot is also to lazy to read what they can watch on TV. It didn't get the nickname Idiot Box for nothing.

But why bother to watch the BS on TV when someone else's even worse interpretation of it can be summed up in a 480x360 graphic on Facebook, complete with a sentence or two of misspelled text & bad grammar, and a link to a site of questionable validity, built by a mentally ill individual that very likely has an entire tinfoil wardrobe? And you don't even have to Google it to see if they are talking out of their ass or not, before liking it and resharing it, to spread it's BS message to your friends & family, who most are likely to be just as uneducated, gullible, & lazy.

Of course that won't remove all of those people from the world, that actually have a brain and know how to use it, but you can just quickly block or unfriend them when they correct your BS, so that nobody else will know just how stupid and lazy you really are.  ;)


Renegade

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You're trying to be rational. Stop.

Wait...what? You thought that was rational?  :o

I am not too sure how I should interpret that:-\

Hahahaa! :D

I mean your facetiousness and bit at the end:

Quote
You would have a better chance of success messing with the Constitution and the last will & testament of George Washington to do it, than a punctuation mark in the Declaration of Independence.

While the silliness is fun, the last part there is quite sober. In fact, exactly that is happening if you watch the news or listen to a few academics and pundits. I know you're being facetious and poking fun at a few things, but the kind of insanity that you're pointing out is happening, although in a different flavour.

I kid thee not.

WARNING - HAS AUDIO AUTOPLAY
http://www.discovery...tion-out-of-date.htm

Quote
The Constitution is the foundational document of U.S. governance. In some corners, though, it's considered outmoded. Is the Constitution really out of date?

http://voices.yahoo....out-date-743981.html

Quote
Is the Constitution Out of Date?

http://www.examiner....-united-states-today

Quote
Americans across the country can all agree that the United States runs on the same set of rules, the Constitution. When the Constitution was adopted by the Constitutional Convention on September 17, 1787, it was written as a guideline to follow for the American people. The Founding Founders drafted and edited a document that was relevant for the times and would distinguish the United States from the country it broke away from. In the year 2012, the Constitution appears too vague for many Americans and politicians use its vagueness to fit their political agenda.

http://www.nytimes.c....html?pagewanted=all

Quote
Let’s Give Up on the Constitution

http://www.jstor.org...p;sid=21103954119741

Quote
Does the Constitution Mean What It Always Meant?

etc. etc. etc.

Why not attack the Constitution itself... You would have a better chance of success messing with the Constitution...than a punctuation mark in the Declaration of Independence. ;)


It's already underway. Has been for a long time. ;)

Rights take forever + a day to get recognised, but they can disappear in the blink of an eye.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

mouser

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Here we go again.

This thread started out focused on an interesting new academic debate about whether there was scientific evidence of a mis-transcription and its ramifications.
And now has very predictably drifted into yet another discussion of politics.

Can we please try to keep the rants about government in the basement so they stop taking over threads?

And if you absolutely cannot stop yourself from posting about politics in a thread -- just make your point and move on -- it's not fair to the rest of us when these threads become just one or two people arguing (or more often agreeing) back and forth over and over about off-tangent political points that have nothing to do with original topic.

I'm not saying these political topics are not important things for citizens to discuss -- and i'm not saying you aren't providing useful information -- but I am saying that they should not make up such a high percentage of the posts on this forum.  And it's especially harmful when such posts drown out the conversations that otherwise could be taking place.

Please.

CWuestefeld

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Coincidentally, I just saw this article. Apparently the Mexican government have been using, while considering cases, a non-existent "provision" of their Constitution.

Quote
DHS officers and the Administrative Appeals Office (“AAO”) within DHS have relied on provisions of the Mexican Constitution that either never existed or do not say what DHS claims they say. In Saldana’s case and in others, DHS has relied on the proposition that Article 314 of the Constitution of Mexico provides that...

At oral argument, however, the government conceded that Article 314 of the Constitution of Mexico does not exist and never did.

40hz

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And it's especially harmful when such posts drown out the conversations that otherwise could be taking place.

@M - Not that I'm disagreeing...but exactly which conversations are those that "could be taking place" that are being crowded out?

From what I've seemed to notice, about the only time an active and robust discussion starts taking place around here is when some legal or political consideration becomes part of the dialog. Which makes sense since you can only say so much amount about a tech topic before it's either exhausted or you start splitting hairs over details or arguing over brands. :huh:

Have you been getting complaints? :huh:


Renegade

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Here we go again.

This thread started out focused on an interesting new academic debate about whether there was scientific evidence of a mis-transcription and its ramifications.
And now has very predictably drifted into yet another discussion of politics.

Can we please try to keep the rants about government in the basement so they stop taking over threads?

And if you absolutely cannot stop yourself from posting about politics in a thread -- just make your point and move on -- it's not fair to the rest of us when these threads become just one or two people arguing (or more often agreeing) back and forth over and over about off-tangent political points that have nothing to do with original topic.

I'm not saying these political topics are not important things for citizens to discuss -- and i'm not saying you aren't providing useful information -- but I am saying that they should not make up such a high percentage of the posts on this forum.  And it's especially harmful when such posts drown out the conversations that otherwise could be taking place.

Please.


As I am the usual culprit...

I think you're mistaking some intentions here.

I'm not coming down on any political side.

I am coming down on "politics" though. As I've illustrated above in a few links, you can see how opposing sides use "for the children" to advance their arguments.

If anything, I'm apolitical, or anti-political if you will. I've made a quick/superficial case for politics being completely irrational, with evidence.

The original article has little to do with technology or science. The closest it gets is here:

Quote
And there, some manuscript experts say, existing high-resolution images show little evidence of a period.

I have not made any comment towards or against any interpretation of the period/comma.

I have made comments on how any interpretation of it will be abused.

I also made comments on reinterpretations. I've not tried to come down on any "side" other than the side of people losing recognised rights.

But, I'll drop that line of discussion.

Any further comments I make will be limited to comment on the linguistics or grammar of the content. I am more than qualified for that in a professional sense.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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The original point of contention is here:

Quote

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”


From here:

Quote
...the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government...

We can see that the dash and capitalisation have no significant effect on the structure as the author wrote. i.e. The author had no clear intention for the dash and initial capitalisation.

So we cannot conclude anything from the capitalisation of the 't' here:

" — T"

Whether or not " — T" begins a new sentence is not knowable. Period.

The question then shifts to the author's use of the dash, "—".

However, this is unlikely to yield anything useful in isolation.

A more prudent look would be to examine writings prior to the time and see how the dash is used as punctuation.

The document is not an isolated event -- it took place during a specific time. Language evolves and changes over time, and we can only expect that the author was educated and practiced the typical conventions (or perhaps an untypicial convention) of that time.

That question is best left to language scholars with a solid linguistic understanding of the written language of the time.

But it doesn't matter as any interpretation will still be abused by the psychotic politicians in our time! :P ;D (I lied above! :P But I do hope to have amused someone out there!)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker