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Last post Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.  (Read 145995 times)

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #425 on: October 29, 2013, 10:45:32 PM »
Quote
David Cameron threatened on Monday to act to stop newspapers publishing what he called damaging leaks from former U.S. intelligence operative Edward Snowden.

"If they don't demonstrate some social responsibility it will be very difficult for government to stand back and not to act," Cameron told parliament.

More on this story over at Techdirt.


I'm wondering how many more heavy handed attempts will be made at derailing the revelations before somebody with access to the documents decides to do a preemptive mass data dump of the entire remaining collection?
 :huh:

That he would even bring it up is chilling. Just imagine what goes through his head that he DOESN'T say publicly? Did anyone just s4!+ their pants?

I love this part in the article:

Quote
There's that "social responsibility" phrase again. I don't think it means quite what Cameron seems to think it means. Social responsibility is not being stenographers for the government's point of view. Quite the opposite. You'd think that someone in Cameron's position would understand that.

Yet another illustration of why TechDirt is one of my favourite sites.  :Thmbsup:
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Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #426 on: October 30, 2013, 03:30:51 AM »
Sue the NSA! :P

http://arstechnica.c...em-on-mugs-t-shirts/

Quote
LAW & DISORDER / CIVILIZATION & DISCONTENTS
Man sues DHS, NSA for the right to parody them on mugs, T-shirts
"Forbidding citizens from criticizing them is beyond the pale,” lawyer says.

the_nsa_mens_vneck_tshirt.jpg
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #427 on: October 30, 2013, 06:46:19 AM »
I am actually getting a bit confused by this SnowdenGate thing and the relative importance that various nations' political players are giving it. They each seem to be taking it a bit differently:
____________________________
UK:
Cameron: GCHQ surveillance of UK citizens and the Internet in tandem with US NSA surveillance was and is necessary for national security purposes. Yes, we know it is and was illegal, because GCHQ kept telling us - actually they were a little bit nervous about that being made public. I mean, good grief, they're not idiots, you know.
By the way, the whistleblower Snowden is a criminal for releasing this information.
The Crown is going to to throw the book at the reporters involved in Rupert Murdoch's News International's scandalous, disgraceful, illegal phone hacking. We can't have that sort of thing going on in a free democracy like the UK, after all, can we? Ruddy heck, before you knew it, we'd all be hacking into each other's phones what with the GCHQ doing it in spades already. Oh, wait. ...Did I say that?

America:
Obama: I know I promised to encourage whistleblowers and reduce NSA and other surveillance of citizens and the Internet but in fact, as SnowdenGate has revealed, it has been increased to cover all citizens and all foreign nations and external networks. But it's OK because we need the surveillance for national security purposes - really, we do, you can trust me on this one.
By the way, the whistleblower Snowden is a criminal for releasing this information.
Rest assured we have not carried out any surveillance of our European allies ... Oh, wait. What? We have? Merkels' phone too? How the @#$%^ did I forget that? @#$%^!

US Security Chiefs: We actually need to increase the existing levels of surveillance for national security purposes.
By the way, the whistleblower Snowden is a criminal for releasing this information.
Yeah, actually we did tap into Merkels' phone and all the other EU political leaders, just to get to know them better, not so as to spy on them or anything like that. That would be ridiculous.

Germany, France, and other EU nations:
Merkel & Co.:  @#$%^ing Americans, why can't you @#$%^ing keep your @#$%^ing noses out of our @#$%^ing affairs? If we @#$%^ing wanted you to know anything we'd @#$%^ing tell you, for @#$%^'s sake. You can just @#$%^ off and @#$%^ you, you @#$%^ing @#$%^hole @#$%s.

New Zealand:
Key: Ah @#$%^ing hell, the whole @#$%^ing world knows now that we knowingly @#$%^ing @#$%^ed NZ law over big time when we @#$%^ing illegally surveilled Dotcom's @#$%^ing busines networks and contacts in cahoots with those @#$%^ing FBI and NSA @#$%^tards. Now I look a real @#$%^ing idiot and it's coming up to @#$%^ing election time.
I tell you, @#$%^ing heads are going to roll for this one and it won't be @#$%^ing mine, you @#$%^ing DCSB @#$%^wits. And @#$%^, @#$%^, @#$%^ @#$%^ing Dotcom. I wish I'd never heard of that @#$%^ing @#$%^hole @#$%^ing comedian. Why the @#$%^ did we let him into New Zealand anyway, and why the @#$%^ did we let the @#$%^ing FBI @#$%^ing push us into @#$%^ing breaking the @#$%^ing law? I'm @#$%^ed if I know.
@#$%^ me I need a cup of tea and a @#$%^ing lie-down.
____________________________

What we can draw from this is the possibility that neither the EU countries nor NZ consider the whistleblower Snowden to be a criminal for releasing the information that he apparently did.

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #428 on: October 30, 2013, 08:59:05 AM »
You're right. This is straying off topic.

I will add, however, there's truth, and there's ways of communicating the same.  Since all of us have been on the wrong side of this at one time or another, it would seem that a bit of respect in communicating this wouldn't be out of order.  Just a reminder would be good.

Quote
David Cameron threatened on Monday to act to stop newspapers publishing what he called damaging leaks from former U.S. intelligence operative Edward Snowden.

"If they don't demonstrate some social responsibility it will be very difficult for government to stand back and not to act," Cameron told parliament.

More on this story over at Techdirt.


I'm wondering how many more heavy handed attempts will be made at derailing the revelations before somebody with access to the documents decides to do a preemptive mass data dump of the entire remaining collection?
 :huh:


Well, it's a bit less heavy handed than the US would probably be in such a situation.  At least people aren't disappearing.  Yet.  That's a bit of progress, right?

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #429 on: October 30, 2013, 07:45:01 PM »
Spying on the Pope?

http://www.telegraph...atican-conclave.html

Quote
US 'spied on future Pope Francis during Vatican conclave'

NSA spied on the future Pope Francis before and during the Vatican conclave at which he was chosen to succeed Benedict XVI

More at the link.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #430 on: October 30, 2013, 09:32:31 PM »
^ The question I'd ask is ... why?  It seems like a lot to risk for little gain. So is it merely that the NSA is now a reasonable target for such allegations for other reasons?

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #431 on: October 30, 2013, 09:51:23 PM »
It seems like a lot to risk for little gain.

But they spy on hundreds of millions of other people. What gain is there in that? A truckload of effort for what?

So is it merely that the NSA is now a reasonable target for such allegations for other reasons?

It could be bogus, but given how much they spy on everyone else, it would seem silly to think that they don't spy on religious leaders as well.

Will we ever know these things for certain? Well, in the sense of "know", then "no". Will we have reasonable information to believe these kinds of things? Yup.

Just a few years ago you were a kook if you talked about the NSA data centers, e.g. the mega-center in Utah. Now? Not so much. Seems the tinfoil hat crowd had a point after all.
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TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #432 on: October 30, 2013, 10:38:01 PM »
It seems like a lot to risk for little gain.

But they spy on hundreds of millions of other people. What gain is there in that? A truckload of effort for what?

Emotional gain?

Borrowing the Joker from Batman's epic speech, "old school" criminals wanted money or random stuff like weapons. But "some criminals just want to see the world burn".

Think for a min, the PG13 power rush of just seeing lots of little people's lives scurrying under your computer monitor / reports. It's a lot more like the Matrix minus the robots than we want to think.

For example if any one wants to do a mini proof of joke, because you know they have the GPS from our phones, so make a map with little scurrying dots of people "going about their puny little lives" (Q from Star Trek Next Gen).


TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #433 on: October 30, 2013, 10:54:21 PM »
I developed a "paradigm" - not exactly a theory - to explain all this called the "Fishbowl" way back about 2002 after the initial dot com crash. Of course I don't pretend to have known any details at all, but the gist is that the "excitement" of "cyberspace" per movies like the Matrix and Johnny Mnemonic left us, and essentially in certain ways depending when you start the clock, "no ultra game breaking tech" has arrived, and worse, *will arrive*, for X years.

So "out of existential boredom" all we can do is meddle with little things like social networks, and this year's Facebook posts aren't any more important than 2008's Facebook posts.

The Smartphone players have consolidated into iPhone and Android-clones. A few low end junk phones float around.

So we're getting bored. We've hit a wall. We haven't had anything really stunning to excite us like the old days in a decade. So we sit and stare at each other, and the Govt pulled several unfortunately devastatingly effective strings to sit on top of it all, along with your choice of 500 corps.

And there we sit FOREVER until someone with a BIG bankroll can smash it all to bits!!

"Snowden" started something ... (is he even real? The Spin doctors are trying to call him a slow leak plant).

Now we need about four more to seal it.


wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #434 on: October 30, 2013, 10:58:09 PM »
Just a few years ago you were a kook if you talked about the NSA data centers, e.g. the mega-center in Utah. Now? Not so much. Seems the tinfoil hat crowd had a point after all.

I didn't think it ever was a tinfoil hat... they just weren't as paranoid as they should have been.

http://www.nsawatch.org/echelonfaq.html

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #435 on: October 31, 2013, 03:14:28 AM »
Screenshot - 10_31_2013 , 7_04_53 PM.png

The most recent news on other pages is from 2006.

It's hard for people to keep up that kind of thing. Eventually their voices get hoarse and worn out.

We need to remember that things "blew up" first in 1975. None of this is new. And yet here we are decades later wondering how this was allowed to happen...

The tinfoil hat community is owed an apology.
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #436 on: October 31, 2013, 08:24:51 AM »
Oh, I knew the page was old... which was actually one of the reasons that I used that page.

This *isn't* new.  (Which we seem to agree on).

It's just that ... we ignored it.

That's why I didn't think it was tinfoil hat material.

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #437 on: October 31, 2013, 09:42:26 AM »
^ I'm painting my tinfoil hat with rainbows, unicorns, and bitcoins! ;D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #438 on: October 31, 2013, 11:13:39 PM »
The hilarity never stops!

http://www.washingto...acy-is-violated.html

Quote
Head of Congressional Intelligence Committee: “You Can’t Have Your Privacy Violated If You Don’t KNOW Your Privacy Is Violated”

Hahahaah!

Quote
How’s that different from arguing that it’s okay for a thief to takes $100 from your bank account as long as you don’t notice that the money is missing? Or that it’s okay to rape a woman while she’s passed out so long as she doesn’t realize what happened?

That’s beyond ridiculous.



In other news, Snowden recently got a job in Russia at a Russian web site company!

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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #439 on: November 01, 2013, 03:49:35 AM »
Edward Snowden for President!

http://rt.com/op-edg...itics-president-019/

Quote
I would like to seriously suggest that Edward Snowden, whether he wishes it or not, has a great future in American politics.

When it's all over - and he has been exonerated - it would behoove any of the 'third-party' political organizations opposed to unconstitutional practices, such as mass surveillance, or tapping the phones of foreign leaders, or waging undeclared foreign wars of aggression, to draft Edward Snowden to run for the US senate in 2016, and the presidency in 2020 when he will be over 35 and meet the constitutional age requirement to run.

Snowdens qualifications: Honesty, integrity, courage, putting 'doing the right thing' above personal advantage, and standing up for the basic democratic rights of the American people.

 :Thmbsup:  8)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #440 on: November 01, 2013, 10:47:58 AM »

Quote
Head of Congressional Intelligence Committee: “You Can’t Have Your Privacy Violated If You Don’t KNOW Your Privacy Is Violated”

Hahahaah!


Mark Zuckerberg Likes this!


TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #441 on: November 01, 2013, 11:06:50 AM »
This *isn't* new.  (Which we seem to agree on).
It's just that ... we ignored it.

Well, for interesting collections of "we".

To borrow the meme from the other thread, "The TinFoil Hats noticed, but no one takes TinFoil hats seriously, then it doesn't matter". Put a bit more proactively, I've been on Slashdot for years now and "we" noticed it in fine dandy form over there, but "hey, who cares about Slashdot, right?"

So you're sorta right that it's a little different now, Spin Doctors will spin, but they've had to at least think up a new message because they can't quite hide behind their old school obscurity anymore.

Unfortunately it's making them get more aggressive even than before flaunting how much they can abuse the Consitution! But whereas they kinda had a status quo, "spies do spy things, just stay out of our way", it was "sorta okay".

But we're reaching a new level of tension that feels like it's more brittle, and will one day finally tip over back into A Moment when it finally swings the other way. But that's an unknown amount of time out ahead!


wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #442 on: November 01, 2013, 01:29:01 PM »
The 'we' used there is the greater we.  Which, indeed, unless you're actively doing something about it...

Well, there's two sides, not three.

And on the revelation front, the guardian has posted a new piece:

http://www.theguardi...ns-decoded#section/1

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #443 on: November 04, 2013, 02:57:06 AM »
And on the revelation front, the guardian has posted a new piece:

http://www.theguardi...ns-decoded#section/1

I still need to get around to reading that...

But there's another story and it's shorter:

http://www.zerohedge...ases-manifesto-truth

Quote
While Edward Snowden may be reviled at the top echelons of Western developed nations and is wanted in his native US on espionage charges for peeling back the curtain on how the gargantuan government machine truly works when it is not only engaged in chronic spying on anyone abroad, but worse, on its own people, the reality is that his whistleblowing revelations have done more to shift the narrative to the topic of dwindling individual liberties abused pervasively in the US and elsewhere, than anything else in recent years. And alongside that, have led to the first reform momentum of a system that is deeply broken. Which also happens to be the topic of a five-paragraph opinion piece he released today in German weekly Der Spiegel titled "A Manifesto For The Truth" in which he writes that his revelations have been useful and society will benefit from them and that he was therefore justified in revealing the methods and targets of the US secret service.

In the Op-Ed we read that "Instead of causing damage, the usefulness of the new public knowledge for society is now clear because reforms to politics, supervision and laws are being suggested."

RT adds: "Spying as a global problem requires global solutions, he said, stressing that "criminal surveillance programs" by secret services threaten open societies, individual privacy and freedom of opinion.

"Citizens have to fight against the suppression of information about affairs of essential importance for the public,” Snowden said in his five-paragraph manifesto. Hence, “those who speak the truth are not committing a crime."

In Soviet Amerika, crime commit you. :P
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IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #444 on: November 04, 2013, 08:09:09 AM »
Quote
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. – C.S. Lewis

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #445 on: November 04, 2013, 10:49:31 AM »
^ I love Lewis! Both Lewis Carroll and C. S. Lewis. It's a tough call to decide between the two, but I think C. S. wins out.  :Thmbsup:
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #446 on: November 04, 2013, 02:08:22 PM »
I don't recall having seen that quote of his until yesterday. The full context is:
Quote
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    C. S. Lewis
    English essayist & juvenile novelist (1898 - 1963)
From: http://www.quotation...com/quote/33029.html
Snowdengate has shown this tyranny to be prevalent unequivocally in the US presidents and their administrations (e.g., including Bush, Obama), and now unequivocally in the UK (e.g., including Cameron). In the UK, they have also taken censorship a stage further by having the Privy Council (a law court run by government officials) giving the green light to a bill/tool for gagging the press - laughably called a Royal Charter. They've not quite done that sort of thing yet in the US, I gather.
When flying to either country, one could be forgiven for singing:
Quote
Back in the US,
Back in the US,
Back in the USSR!


tomos

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #447 on: November 04, 2013, 02:24:37 PM »
There's been a lot of talk about Snowden in the German news reports today and yesterday - in particular about the possibility of giving him asylum here. It was suggested by a 'Green' politician - the middle and right are reacting cautiously, along the lines of: maybe/wont rule it out.


EDIT// there is the possibility that this is being taken seriously simply because all parties are currently negotiating to try and form a new coalition government - the 'right' (CDU/CSU) almost, but not quite, having the complete majority.
Tom
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 02:34:25 PM by tomos »

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #448 on: November 04, 2013, 04:52:53 PM »
@tomos: ^^ Interesting.
Colour me skeptical. I wonder whether the German government would offer Snowden asylum, after talking it over when they sobered up in the morning.
Certainly, Snowden could arguably be said to have provided a service to Germany and other EU countries, and though by giving him asylum, the Germans might be hoping to take the opportunity to impotently thumb their noses at the US for spying on their government ministers, the satisfaction could be short-lived when they start to appreciate the awful reality of US pressures that could be brought to bear. Snowden might end up being extradited to the US within a couple of months, regardless of what the German government might have promised him. It might already be a ruse to entice Snowden into a country from which he could be more readily extradited to the US. There's no honour amongst thieves.

In any event, if even the Russians were apparently too frightened to commit to full asylum for Snowden in the face of potential/threatened US pressures, one doubts whether a gnat like Germany would be able to prevail where the Russians would not even try.

tomos

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #449 on: November 04, 2013, 05:36:57 PM »
Snowden might end up being extradited to the US within a couple of months, regardless of what the German government might have promised him.
yes,
politicians are fickle too, i.e. that could become a possibility for many reasons. I guess it's also a possibility for Snowden wherever he goes... but the noises from here would probably want to be a lot more convincing before he'd consider it.

It might already be a ruse to entice Snowden into a country from which he could be more readily extradited to the US. There's no honour amongst thieves.
-
not at the moment anyway: it's a followup to the outrage at Merkel's mobile phone being 'tapped'.
Tom