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Last post Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.  (Read 146483 times)

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #125 on: July 10, 2013, 09:13:32 AM »
Killing Snowden would serve no objective or provide any operational benefit. The damage has already been done. Now it's more a matter of containment and spin control. (There is a rulebook of sorts in the intelligence community.) So I think assassination is completely off the table at this point.

I'd be inclined to declare the first match a stalemate. But this tournament is far from over.

Snowden's remaining at large, straddles the fence in that his continued freedom is an embarrassment to the Administration - but - his potential for being granted asylum provides several interesting new opportunities for the Administration down the road. And unless he lands in Russia or China, the Administration is likely to be very confident they can 'collect' him whenever they want. So what ultimately happens with that is largely dependent on whether the Machiavellian or Godfather mindset prevails in Washington over the next several weeks.

I think we're on a "bathroom and refresh your drinks break" right now while the new game board gets set up.

landscape.jpg

It should start to get interesting once this temporary state of affairs breaks and the next real move gets played. Because right now, all we're hearing is a lot of gradually cooling bluster and rhetoric.

Stay tuned! New match to start shortly...

« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:25:52 AM by 40hz »

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #126 on: July 10, 2013, 09:59:43 AM »
I'd be inclined to declare the first match a stalemate. But this tournament is far from over.

If we base the assessment on Snowden's declared original objectives, then it must be 1:0 in his favour, as he had managed to change public opinion on the issue despite all the spin, while the US government failed to apprehend him or stop him from leaking further information:

Quote
American voters say 55 - 34 percent that Edward Snowden is a whistle-blower, rather than a traitor, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

In a massive shift in attitudes, voters say 45 - 40 percent the government's anti-terrorism efforts go too far restricting civil liberties, a reversal from a January 10, 2010, survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University when voters said 63 - 25 percent that such activities didn't go far enough to adequately protect the country.

"The massive swing in public opinion about civil liberties and governmental anti- terrorism efforts, and the public view that Edward Snowden is more whistle-blower than traitor are the public reaction and apparent shock at the extent to which the government has gone in trying to prevent future terrorist incidents," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #127 on: July 10, 2013, 10:04:01 AM »
...Snowden's ongoing leaks continue to destabilise international relations...

Relationships based on lies, deception, and treachery. Sounds like they NEED some destabilisation.

How many marriages/relationships could tolerate that level of abuse?
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #128 on: July 10, 2013, 10:05:30 AM »
Renegade is back!  :)

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #129 on: July 10, 2013, 10:18:48 AM »
I'd be inclined to declare the first match a stalemate. But this tournament is far from over.

If we base the assessment on Snowden's declared original objectives, then it must be 1:0 in his favour, as he had managed to change public opinion on the issue despite all the spin, while the US government failed to apprehend him or stop him from leaking further information:

Quote
American voters say 55 - 34 percent that Edward Snowden is a whistle-blower, rather than a traitor, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

In a massive shift in attitudes, voters say 45 - 40 percent the government's anti-terrorism efforts go too far restricting civil liberties, a reversal from a January 10, 2010, survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University when voters said 63 - 25 percent that such activities didn't go far enough to adequately protect the country.

"The massive swing in public opinion about civil liberties and governmental anti- terrorism efforts, and the public view that Edward Snowden is more whistle-blower than traitor are the public reaction and apparent shock at the extent to which the government has gone in trying to prevent future terrorist incidents," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.



It give us hope but it won't be enough in and of itself.

Especially since the Administration and DOJ just doubled down on FISA, executive privilege, State secrets, and all new legalisms to prevent whistleblowing on the government in the face of previous legislation forbidding such actions.

So as long as the Supreme Court continues to sit on the fence about this, it's going to continue.

Expect a very long list of executive pardons to be issued on the eve Obama leaves office. "Exit pardons" are a cute trick that worked for both Bush administrations, so why not?

Dark days ahead before there's even hope of seeing sunlight I'm afraid.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #130 on: July 10, 2013, 10:57:22 AM »
If this were true though, then why doesn't the US let Snowden leave Moscow, so he could be more easily apprehended in Latin America?

Some of us on Slashdot used to call this the "Microsoft Effect" where there was such a confusing mix of brilliant malice and mind-twisting incompetence that, to (just now) paraphrase Orwell, you could no longer tell which was which.

So the fact that they are even "playing" this Snowden Game (and didn't sniper him on the spot and put a Kill Order to the media), means at least a few really scary people are involved. But then the specific handling of it all is mighty confusing as well. Wouldn't China and Russia working together really want to make USA grumpy? So why are they "semi-caving"?

For me, I have to just let it drift by, because I can't afford the medical fees to unwrap my mind from becoming  pretzel.


TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2013, 10:40:00 PM »

See, this is disturbing when the Tin Foil Hats are right! More fun from Snowden saying that Microsoft was handing the NSA access to stuff. In an unrelated story, HP is apparently *still* (?!!) putting backdoors into its stuff.



Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #133 on: July 12, 2013, 06:05:05 AM »
Aviation insiders say Snowden’s chances of reaching Venezuela are slim at best

Still crossing my fingers...

But, I've not really been poking fun at anyone lately, so, might as well have a few laughs. :P ;)

Quote from: House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio)
The president outlined last week that these were important national security programs to help keep Americans safe and give us tools to fight the terrorist threat that we face.
Source

The general public are terrorists? Oh. Didn't know that. Should I turn myself in now or later?

Quote from: Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calf.)
He took an oath — that oath is important. He violated the oath, he violated the law. It’s an act of treason in my view.
Source

Oaths? Yeah. They're pretty serious business. For sure. I'm with ya so far...

Quote from: Oath of office of the President of the United States
I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Source

Gee! The Prez gets his very own!

Quote from: Oath of all US Congressmen, Senators, the Vice President, members of the Cabinet, federal judges, civil and military officers, and federal employees
I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. [So help me God.]
Source

And all you "lesser beings" get a generic version. Oh well. Don't think that you're not still special. You have a special place waiting for you in Hell. :P


Yes, please Madam Feinstein. Please do send the traitors to prison... Would you care to go first? :P


There have been many times over the last while that I've laughed so hard I nearly pissed myself. Politicians make damn good comedians if you actually listen to what they say. :P
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #134 on: July 12, 2013, 08:22:19 AM »
But, I've not really been poking fun at anyone lately, so, might as well have a few laughs. :P ;)



h/t Nerdcore

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #135 on: July 12, 2013, 09:10:50 AM »
I'd be inclined to declare the first match a stalemate. But this tournament is far from over.

If we base the assessment on Snowden's declared original objectives, then it must be 1:0 in his favour, as he had ...managed to change public opinion on the issue despite all the spin, while the US government failed to apprehend him or stop him from leaking further information...

Okay gang, with a bit of morning levity but some seriousness to it, the Chess analogy is an interesting one. And the game is not over. We're not into "matches" because *no new serious angle* has been introduced, such as another nation's counterpart, or a second one from the US.

Chess games have multiple phases, sometimes as many as ten. So I'm curious to see how much you gang think he has accomplished, but it's not a "checkmate" for him yet, or the US! Snowden's playing White - he "opened the game" and did his thing. So apparently his "opening was good" and he got an advantage of some level. But then however we interpret it, the US has been playing defense. So you can sit on a "cramped" position for a long time in Chess. Those become either Draws or even wins for Black if the original attacker playing White doesn't finish it all off with a killer combo.

I haven't figured out what chess opening the US is playing yet though.
:)

« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:31:24 AM by TaoPhoenix »

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2013, 09:25:54 AM »
spying.jpg

I admit it, I laughed.  Well, I guess I don't have to admit it... the NSA already knows. 

And I did laugh, and nothing wrong with it... until I realized that was my kid...  :huh:

(Just kidding...  ;D)

cmpm

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2013, 10:30:16 AM »
the best chess players don't reveal checkmate in how ever many moves it will take
I'm guessing he has not made all his moves yet.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2013, 10:53:18 AM »
the best chess players don't reveal checkmate in how ever many moves it will take
I'm guessing he has not made all his moves yet.

I agree with you and "guarantee" he hasn't, because he just released a new tidbit of info a couple of days ago. But even if he just releases "tidbits", we're waiting for the big move from him *or someone influenced by him* that really changes the "prevailing mood of the time". (With a nod to the Gregory Brothers music group!)

I'd really say we're only on some "move" 4-7 at this point, because chess has lots of little "obligatory actions" that comprise up sequences. But we really only have a couple of big picture themes. A, he released a bunch of stuff, B, he's jockeying for Asylum, and that's it.


Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2013, 10:55:03 AM »
the best chess players don't reveal checkmate in how ever many moves it will take
I'm guessing he has not made all his moves yet.

It's certainly funny to hear obvious lies and hypocrisy from politicians, and then see them exposed for what they are. My wife and I have been laughing our butts off for a while now, and not infrequently hysterically so. :P :D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2013, 11:14:00 AM »
It's certainly funny to hear obvious lies and hypocrisy from politicians, and then see them exposed for what they are. My wife and I have been laughing our butts off for a while now, and not infrequently hysterically so. :P :D

(Parody of Distraction Tactics used here, and on Julian Assange)
"In other news, Renny is happily married to his wife! Where did you meet her?"

 :P

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2013, 11:17:17 AM »
(Parody of Distraction Tactics used here, and on Julian Assange)
"In other news, Renny is happily married to his wife! Where did you meet her?"

In an NSA chatroom called "the Internet". :P :D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2013, 11:32:23 AM »
the best chess players don't reveal checkmate in how ever many moves it will take
I'm guessing he has not made all his moves yet.

I agree with you and "guarantee" he hasn't, because he just released a new tidbit of info a couple of days ago. But even if he just releases "tidbits", we're waiting for the big move from him *or someone influenced by him* that really changes the "prevailing mood of the time". (With a nod to the Gregory Brothers music group!)

Agree up to a point. But I also see some of his venues and communication channels are eroding. He's hardly being mentioned on the major news channels. And now the Guardian is only "quoting" from things he sent them rather than releasing them in raw format like they previously did. I'm guessing pressure has been brought to bear in the background.

Quote
really say we're only on some "move" 4-7 at this point, because chess has lots of little "obligatory actions" that comprise up sequences. But we really only have a couple of big picture themes. A, he released a bunch of stuff, B, he's jockeying for Asylum, and that's it.



Unfortunately, he was forced to state very early in the game that he had a fallback data dump he arranged to have go public if he were harmed or killed in order to forestall a possible assasination plan.

While it may have prevented that, it also seriously reduced his chances for asylum. Because if what he has gets released if he's caught or killed, why lock horns with a crazy superpower when you'll get to see it anyway once he is aprehended? Best bet is just to thunder and point fingers while doing nothing. That's a diplomatic strategy the EU has elevated to an art form...

Despite all the high falutin' speeches, at the end of the day, no nation is going to do anything for Snowden beyond giving him their moral support. I'm sure he'll take comfort knowing that they're "with him in spirit" while he's sitting in his 8X10 cell in a federal supermax 'isolation' unit and slowly going crazy. At least he'll have all those nice imaginary friends to talk to.  
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 03:03:40 PM by 40hz »

Carol Haynes

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2013, 04:23:45 PM »
On the BBC Snowden meeting in Moscow with Human Rights Lawyers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...orld-europe-23283684

cmpm

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2013, 04:50:27 PM »
On the BBC Snowden meeting in Moscow with Human Rights Lawyers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...orld-europe-23283684

It takes a while to figure out all the moves available.
I play on chess.com which gives up to 14 days per move.

Looks like Russia is a suburb of the US in this new world order.
Can't even count on Russia being Russia anymore.

The US government are such cowardly weasels. With EU and Russia failing to be what an independent separate country should be.

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2013, 05:03:30 PM »
On the BBC Snowden meeting in Moscow with Human Rights Lawyers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...orld-europe-23283684

I think this part of the mentioned article pretty much says all there is to say that's of any substance:

Quote
The Kremlin repeated its earlier condition on Friday.

"Mr Snowden could hypothetically stay in Russia if he first, completely stops the activities harming our American partners and US-Russian relations and, second, if he asks for this himself," President Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.

Mr. Putin has got what he wanted, A chance to posture for his young nationalistic supporters and trash talk the USA for a bit. But now that the showboating is over, it's time for Mr. Putin, Politburo street thug that he is, to get back down to doing business with the other rival gang before the situation gets out of hand.

Russia is holding a badger by the hind leg with Mr. Snowden. And now it's Washington's turn to enjoy watching Russia try to figure out how they're going to drop it and not get bit after all the previous tough talk to the world press about being an "independent nation" and not dancing to the Obama administration's tune.

This back and forth is almost a moment of comic relief in the larger tragedy.
 :(

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2013, 07:28:26 PM »
Russia is holding a badger by the hind leg with Mr. Snowden. And now it's Washington's turn to enjoy watching Russia try to figure out how they're going to drop it and not get bit after all the previous tough talk to the world press about being an "independent nation" and not dancing to the Obama administration's tune.

It's very simple. Cop out by citing the UN and international law, etc. etc.

http://www.guardian....airport-live-coverag

http://wikileaks.org...ward-Snowden-to.html

The only ones here that are between a rock and a hard place are the US politicians.

Woohoo for typewriters~! :P :D
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

cmpm

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #147 on: July 12, 2013, 09:57:26 PM »
PERHAPS the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing WRONG, gives it a superficial appearance of being RIGHT, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.

Paine, Thomas (2009-10-04). Common Sense (p. 1). Public Domain Books. Kindle Edition.

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2013, 07:23:33 AM »
The only ones here that are between a rock and a hard place are the US politicians

How little you know about US politicians and intel apparatchiks if you believe that makes any difference.

Squeeze slime between a rock and a hard place and it simply oozes out and then reconstitutes as a brand new puddle of slime.

 :P

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2013, 07:47:30 AM »
the Chess analogy is an interesting one

Especially considering chess is a rather unusual game where both sides start out evenly matched, and begin the game with as much as they're ever going to have. After that, it's a matter of not making more mistakes than your opponent does.

In some respects, it's not really possible to 'win' a chess game in the traditional sense of the word. All you can do is try your best not to lose

And the only way that can happen is if your opponent makes more mistakes than you do.

I think that's exactly what's going on with Snowden's asylum bid. None of the players (except for some overly vocal elements in the American government) are trying to win anything. They're just trying very hard not to lose in what has since become a war of words.

prisoner13.jpg

Welcome to The Village, Mr. Snowden!. ;)

« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 07:59:40 AM by 40hz »