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Last post Author Topic: Worth Reading: Trevor Pott's editorial on NSA PRISM and its real ramifications  (Read 64441 times)


40hz

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Step aside Yankee Rose - here comes Yankee Pepper.... :tellme:

Coming Soon! The New & Improved Statue of Liberty - now fully updated for post-9/11 America!
 
PepperLiberty.jpg

(Sorry. I'm having a bad day right now.  :-\)

Stoic Joker

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Step aside Yankee Rose - here comes Yankee Pepper.... :tellme:

Coming Soon! The New & Improved Statue of Liberty - now fully updated for post-9/11 America!
  (see attachment in previous post)
(Sorry. I'm having a bad day right now.  :-\)

Okay...granted... Not always a good sign, but... I think the pic epically nails the whole government out-of-control -- United Police State of America (UPSA) -- problem quite nicely.

All we need now is a new flag and the proverbial hounds are good to go for release!  :D


 :wallbash:

40hz

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Nice analogy provided by Stilgherrian over at ZDnet. (Full article here)

Quote
With every new day that journalists dig through the secret files released by Edward Snowden, with every new astonishment as we discover the sheer enormity, nay, the truly pan-galactic scale of the NSA's baleen whale of surveillance, scooping up every nybble and bit of data that might contain, somewhere in its subatomic structure, the hint of an odour of a dream of a terrorist plot, the more I think that the great American writer Hunter S Thompson has already specified the only recipe that could possibly brace our minds to cope with this insanity.

"We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... and also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of Budweiser, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls," said Raoul Duke, the drug-addled protagonist of Thompson's 1971 novel Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

"Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get locked into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can."

The NSA has shown that once you get locked into a serious data collection, the tendency is to push that as far as you can too.

Once the NSA was tasked with collecting international communications and data, and analysing it for foreign intelligence matters. Now it seems to be tasked with gathering well, pretty much everything about everything by everyone everywhere.

Yeah. That sounds about right. :-\

MohKraats

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I live in Europe, and I've been looking westwards many times.
Wandering how to make the move to the country of freedom and opportunities.
If I should try my luck in the USA.

I have visited the states in the meantime.
I have seen how people live there,
how the police acts, how people think.

Luckily, I was just the bystander... The happy tourist, who has a place to return to..... Outside the USA.
I turned out to have US colleagues, looking for ways to migrate to Europe .......... to get away from the US way of life, to bring their kids in safety.

Nowadays I look westwards in fear.
Scared by a police-state where there is no freedom no more, where human-rights have no value.
A state that is to scary to live in.

I did have US colleagues, who were looking for ways to migrate to Europe ..........

Shit, :o this will probably put me on the unwanted persons list .......

Despite that all,
Keep on coding
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 07:12:10 AM by MohKraats »

Renegade

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Nice analogy provided by Stilgherrian over at ZDnet. (Full article here)

If he's going to mention the 70s, might as well mention Project SHAMROCK:

http://www.faqs.org/...ration-Shamrock.html

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Project_SHAMROCK

No... None of the recent revelations expose anything "recent". They only expose how things have accelerated "thanks" to the wonders of modern technology.

Got to love it when ex-Stasi officers come out talking about what they're seeing here, and how it puts what they did to shame.

I turned out to have US colleagues, looking for ways to migrate to Europe .......... to get away from the US way of life, to bring their kids in safety.
...I did have US colleagues, who were looking for ways to migrate to Europe ..........

Europe has a proven track record. Not so sure it's ideal...

But I don't think that running is the answer anymore. However, there are quite a lot of people that do think running is the answer, e.g. Doug Casey, Jeff Berwick, etc. There are businesses that specialize in helping Americans get out of the US and dump their citizenship. Galt's Gulch anyone? Given the 100%+ tax rate in France, I imagine there's a French translation for that, but my French isn't that good.

You (or anyone else) might want to consider at least quickly browsing through the works of R. J. Rummel. Those that prefer videos or documentaries may wish to watch "It Can't Happen Here" by Larken Rose.

Those can help provide some perspective that you will not get in casual conversation with friends (unless you know a bunch of "fruit cakes" like me) or ever see in the mainstream news.


Nowadays I look westwards in fear.
Scared by a police-state where there is no freedom no more, where human-rights have no value.
A state that is to scary to live in.


It is very scary, but there are things people can do to make it less so.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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Relocation is no longer an option. Because these policies and practices are spreading everywhere. Much like in the book On the Beach where the survivors of a global nuclear exchange soon realize that living in Australia has only bought them about a year's respite before the fatal level of fallout radiation reaches them too.

Stealthing, encryption, and related technological "privacy solutions" are not sustainable strategies. Because it will only lead to endless cycles of escalation. And the side with the deepest pockets and the most manpower will almost always triumph in the end despite any romantic illusions the hacker cult has about that "lone computer genius" triumphing over the brutal industrial state. If you want to believe that bit of fiction, content yourself with reading sci-fi books and daydreaming about it in your spare time. Otherwise you'll have plenty of time to fantasize while sitting in a jail cell should you ever seriously buy into it.

Surveillance and abuse of government power is NOT a technical problem. It is a PEOPLE problem. Romania didn't oust it's surveillance loving tyrant with software. Nor did Germany ditch it's hated Stasi with some clever computer hacks. Things got changed when the general population got angry and finally removed their oppressors from their positions of power and control.

Want to get a handle on the problem and start correcting it? Stop looking at technology and realize you will eventually need to go outside, away from your mouse and hi-def video display, and put your own precious butt on the line. That is the only way real change ever gets accomplished when the current social situation has gotten entirely out of control.

This doesn't presume violent confrontation either. Canada won it's independence without the need to fire a single shoot. As did Russia mostly, with no violence - other than the years and years of violence done by the Soviet government against its people - which led up to its being tossed out.

Mantra for the upcoming struggle: Technology is not the problem. Laws are not the problem. PEOPLE in our GOVERNMENT are the problem.

The way to get this to end is to look no further than Terry Pratchette's book Hogfather. Simply adopt the technique taught by the nanny Susan to her children, who were frightened to fall asleep because there was a monster hiding in their bedroom.

When asked by an adult if she is still afraid of monsters, one of Susan's charges says "no." And then adds: "Susan says, don't get afraid, get angry."

That's a message worth repeating: Don't get afraid, get angry.

 8)

question.jpg
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 09:36:12 AM by 40hz »

Renegade

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@40hz - eloquent as always. ;)

A quick comment or 3 on this:

Technology is not the problem. Laws are not the problem. PEOPLE in our GOVERNMENT are the problem.


Technology is not the problem.

Absolutely! They are mere tools. Too many people don't understand that there is nothing innately good/evil about a hammer, fork, spoon, car, screwdriver, etc.

Laws are not the problem.

They don't really have any kind of existence - they're merely extensions of people, and an invisible set of bars to keep people in line. But, long discussion there that's better skipped.

PEOPLE in our GOVERNMENT are the problem.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm more inclined to say that government is the problem. It's just a silly bunch of "good intentions" that are paving the road to Hell. Does it matter whether you start with the psychotic, priviledged political class there, or is it too long to wait 6 months for the naive newbie to start down his own path to the dark side?

If you start off with the idea that it's bad to kidnap, steal, defraud, and murder... EXCEPT if you happen to be part of a special ruling class... is it any wonder that things turn out badly?

A & -A

From there you can derive anything.

Should we be surprised that when we base our entire society on force and violence, that things always end up as force and violence?
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Tinman57

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PEOPLE in our GOVERNMENT are the problem.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm more inclined to say that government is the problem. It's just a silly bunch of "good intentions" that are paving the road to Hell. Does it matter whether you start with the psychotic, priviledged political class there, or is it too long to wait 6 months for the naive newbie to start down his own path to the dark side?

  I think he was saying it's the actual politicians that are the problem.  The "government" is nothing but a group of people running the show.  That group of people have turned out to be the elite "in crowd".  They are mostly people that have been groomed for their positions all their lives, like the Bush's, like father, like son....

Renegade

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PEOPLE in our GOVERNMENT are the problem.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm more inclined to say that government is the problem. It's just a silly bunch of "good intentions" that are paving the road to Hell. Does it matter whether you start with the psychotic, priviledged political class there, or is it too long to wait 6 months for the naive newbie to start down his own path to the dark side?

  I think he was saying it's the actual politicians that are the problem.  The "government" is nothing but a group of people running the show.  That group of people have turned out to be the elite "in crowd".  They are mostly people that have been groomed for their positions all their lives, like the Bush's, like father, like son....

Yes - that's what 40hz was saying. I simply think that the focus is misplaced. e.g. You said:

The "government" is nothing but a group of people running the show.  

I think THAT is the problem.

Whoever is in the government is less important as they always degenerate into frenzied orgies of mass murder. Rummel has some decent graphs that illustrate that:

http://www.hawaii.ed...rkills/NOTE5.HTM#FIG

He backs it all up with facts and data.

One thing that should be noted though is size matters. The distinction is drawn out several times in "Industrial Society and Its Future" with emphasis on individuals and "SMALL GROUPS".

Anyways... 40hz pointed out that he sees a problem with the PEOPLE. I think the problem is the SYSTEM. I do not mean whether it is democratic, autocratic, theocratic or anything of the sort. I'm saying the problem there is that there *IS* a system, and I am not placing any particular blame on any given system or any given faction within any system of government.

To draw that out into a bit clearer terms, not only do I not see any difference between the left/right or republicans/democrats or liberals/conservatives, etc., I don't see any important differences between the many variations on government that you see in different places, e.g. US, UK, China, Russia, Venezuela, Cuba, Canada, Australia, Jordan, etc. They all have systems of government founded on force, coercion, fraud, and violence. Once that's in place, it's largely irrelevant WHO runs the show.

But, I'm just a batshit crazy renegade. :P :D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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SO, is that an advocation for anarchy?  Even when there *is* no system, the people will still gravitate towards the stronger dominating the weaker.  It will just be more chaotic.  It's unfortunately human nature.  So at least with a codified rule of law, its less so.

Stoic Joker

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Blaming the system strikes me as being almost nihilistic. Because if all/any systems are problematic then it really doesn't leave any room for improvement. Some hierarchical order of responsibility is necessary if the "page" that everyone is to be on is to be kept track of. However...

The "government" is nothing but a group of people running the show.  That group of people have turned out to be the elite "in crowd".  They are mostly people that have been groomed for their positions all their lives, like the Bush's, like father, like son....

It also strikes me that a large part of said "grooming" process consists of a deeply ingrained sense of entitlement, a disconnected and rarefied sense of reality, and a reflexive need to gravitate towards big picture thinking. You see the individual is irrelevant by design in big picture logic ... and the realities of the damage caused to real individual people by a bad decision are carefully obscured.

These people are so distance from the realities of the life of the common that they can't help but screw up. A military example would be the difference between taking off in a plane, flying over a town, dropping a few bombs, and gong home again...and having to spend days on foot getting to a target, and then killing them face to face. Government, gets to be distances an even further degree, by merely needing to sign something that puts the wheels in motion, and then going on with their day.

It's no wonder these people constantly screw-up ... I could almost pity them if they weren't destroying our lives in the process.

Renegade

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SO, is that an advocation for anarchy?


Yes. I'm out of the closet on that. :P


Even when there *is* no system, the people will still gravitate towards the stronger dominating the weaker.  It will just be more chaotic.  It's unfortunately human nature.  So at least with a codified rule of law, its less so.

I think you have a flawed perception of what anarchism is. Here is a very short list of a few people to look into that can help clarify things:

Larken Rose
Stefan Molyneux
Doug Casey
Jeff Berwick
Noam Chomsky

Lots more out there.

Just look at your daily life and how for the vast majority of things you do not require some nanny to guide/force you do get things done without going postal. THAT is human nature - we are inherently peaceful and cooperative. Hobbes was an asshole. :P

Blaming the system strikes me as being almost nihilistic.

Not in the least bit. People tend to have a very skewed perception of anarchism/voluntaryism, and it isn't what most people think.

For the simplest view of it, just look into the non-aggression principle.

Because if all/any systems are problematic then it really doesn't leave any room for improvement.

Not at all. The assumption there that you've made but not articulated is that the system must be artificial or intentional. It is perfectly well possible to have spontaneous order that isn't directed by corrupt and criminal politicians.

Some hierarchical order of responsibility is necessary if the "page" that everyone is to be on is to be kept track of. However...

Why must there be an accounting system? Why keep track of everything? Why must everything be "controlled"?

We don't need hierarchies of criminality to steal from us or kidnap and imprison peaceful people for doing nothing wrong.

However...

The "government" is nothing but a group of people running the show.  That group of people have turned out to be the elite "in crowd".  They are mostly people that have been groomed for their positions all their lives, like the Bush's, like father, like son....

It also strikes me that a large part of said "grooming" process consists of a deeply ingrained sense of entitlement, a disconnected and rarefied sense of reality, and a reflexive need to gravitate towards big picture thinking. You see the individual is irrelevant by design in big picture logic ... and the realities of the damage caused to real individual people by a bad decision are carefully obscured.

Numerous atrocities have been committed in the name of "the greater good".

Charity that is obtained through force and coercion is nothing more than violence and fraud.

Here's the real big picture: We are slaves through our belief in a criminal system where fraud, theft, kidnapping, torture, murder, and mass murder are all justified one way or another.


These people are so distance from the realities of the life of the common that they can't help but screw up. A military example would be the difference between taking off in a plane, flying over a town, dropping a few bombs, and gong home again...and having to spend days on foot getting to a target, and then killing them face to face. Government, gets to be distances an even further degree, by merely needing to sign something that puts the wheels in motion, and then going on with their day.

BINGO!

Government is nothing more than than fraud, theft, kidnapping, torture, and mass murder by proxy. Today when you "support the troops", you are supporting mass murder by proxy. Tax is just theft by proxy.

It's no wonder these people constantly screw-up ... I could almost pity them if they weren't destroying our lives in the process.

If you can get on Jitsi, I have a reference that you might find interesting. I can't post it in public though.
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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^Ok...and now that it's out of the closet, would it be possible to move the sub-discussion on anarchy and all the 'anti-everything in general' advocacy over to its own thread?  :)

wraith808

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Defund NSA Surveillance: A critical vote is happening tomorrow, July 24th, on the Defense Appropriations Bill in the House of Representatives. The bill gives taxpayer money to fund defense programs, including NSA surveillance.

Defund the NSA (misnamed, but oh well), and a link to HR-2397.

Renegade

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Defund NSA Surveillance: A critical vote is happening tomorrow, July 24th, on the Defense Appropriations Bill in the House of Representatives. The bill gives taxpayer money to fund defense programs, including NSA surveillance.

Defund the NSA (misnamed, but oh well), and a link to HR-2397.

Why stop there? :P

^Ok...and now that it's out of the closet

Ok, ok... I'll go back to my closet in the Basement... :P :D
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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Tinman57

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Plan to defund NSA phone collection program defeated  :( 

  Was there any doubt?   >:(  Another article I just read states this was a good thing because it was so close of a vote.  Their thinking is once the word gets out who voted against it, they will get voted out on the next election, bringing in more politicians that won't support it (or claim to anyway) and eventually getting all this invasion of the U.S. Constitution crap repealed.
  Now I'm all for it to all go away, but I don't want to have to wait until way after election time before it gets repealed.......  Also, you can bet your ass that the politicians that created this mess are exempt from this system.  Too many skeletons in the closet for that to come to light....   :mad:

Renegade

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Another article I just read states this was a good thing because it was so close of a vote.  Their thinking is once the word gets out who voted against it, they will get voted out on the next election, bringing in more politicians that won't support it (or claim to anyway) and eventually getting all this invasion of the U.S. Constitution crap repealed.

Who wrote that? Good? Yes, because the voting publicgoldfish has such a wonderful memory. :P :D
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Tinman57

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Another article I just read states this was a good thing because it was so close of a vote.  Their thinking is once the word gets out who voted against it, they will get voted out on the next election, bringing in more politicians that won't support it (or claim to anyway) and eventually getting all this invasion of the U.S. Constitution crap repealed.

Who wrote that? Good? Yes, because the voting publicgoldfish has such a wonderful memory. :P :D

  I think it was in the last fightforthefuture.org newsletter, or a link in their newsletter led to the article.

  The voting public has the attention span of a 6 week old puppy, and most of them vote party lines whether they're screwing up or not.....

IainB

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Interesting, from my HackerNews feed:
(Copied below sans embedded hyperlinks/images.)
Quote
Obama Promises Disappear from Web
July 25, 2013, 11:31 a.m.

Change.gov, the website created by the Obama transition team in 2008, has effectively disappeared sometime over the last month.

While the front splash page for Change.gov has linked to the main White House website for years, until recently, you could still continue on to see the materials and agenda laid out by the administration. This was a particularly helpful resource for those looking to compare Obama's performance in office against his vision for reform, laid out in detail on Change.gov.

According to the Internet Archive, the last time that content (beyond the splash page) was available was June 8th -- last month.

Why the change?

Here's one possibility, from the administration's ethics agenda:

    Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.

It may be that Obama's description of the importance of whistleblowers went from being an artifact of his campaign to a political liability. It wouldn't be the first time administration positions disappear from the internet when they become inconvenient descriptions of their assurances.

Obama's vision for lobbying transparency has similarly been discarded along the way, but the timing here suggests that the heat on Obama's whistleblower prosecutions has led the administration to unceremoniously remove their previous positions.

IainB

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And presumably this might be no coincidence: (from the guffaws were heard dept.)
(Copied below sans embedded hyperlinks/images.)
Quote
JP Morgan to eurozone periphery: “Get rid of your pinko, anti-fascist constitutions”
At times, I do marvel how antiseptic, bland even, that the language of the most wretchedly villainous documents can be.

Last week, the European economic research team with JP Morgan, the global financial giant, put out a 16-page paper on the state of play of euro area adjustment. This involved a totting up of what work has been done so far and what work has yet to be done in terms of sovereign, household and bank deleveraging; structural reform (reducing labour costs, making it easier to fire workers, privatisation, deregulation, liberalising ‘protected’ industries, etc.); and national political reform.

The takeaway in the small amount of coverage that I’ve seen of the paper was that its authors say the eurozone is about halfway through its period of adjustment, so austerity is still likely to be a feature of the landscape “for a very extended period.”

The bankers’ analysis probably otherwise received little attention because it is a bit ‘dog bites man‘: Big Bank Predicts Many More Years of Austerity. It’s not really as if anyone was expecting austerity to disappear any time soon, however much EU-IMF programme countries have been offered a relaxation of debt reduction commitments in return for ramping up the pace of structural adjustment.

The lack of coverage is a bit of a shame, because it’s the first public document I’ve come across where the authors are frank that the problem is not just a question of fiscal rectitude and boosting competitiveness, but that there is also an excess of democracy in some European countries that needs to be trimmed.

    “In the early days of the crisis, it was thought that these national legacy problems were largely economic: over-levered sovereigns, banks and households, internal real exchange rate misalignments, and structural rigidities. But, over time it has become clear that there are also national legacy problems of a political nature. The constitutions and political settlements in the southern periphery, put in place in the aftermath of the fall of fascism, have a number of features which appear to be unsuited to further integration in the region. When German politicians and policymakers talk of a decade-long process of adjustment, they likely have in mind the need for both economic and political reform.” [Emphasis added]

Yes, you read that right. It’s in dry, banker-ese, but the authors have basically said that the laws and constitutions of southern Europe are a bit too lefty, a product of their having been written by anti-fascists. These “deep-seated political problems in the periphery,” say authors David Mackie, Malcolm Barr and friends, “in our view, need to change if EMU is going to function properly in the long run.”

You think I’m perhaps exaggerating a smidge? They go into more detail in a section describing this “journey of national political reform”:

    “The political systems in the periphery were established in the aftermath of dictatorship, and were defined by that experience. Constitutions tend to show a strong socialist influence, reflecting the political strength that left-wing parties gained after the defeat of fascism.”

All this is a load of historical horse-lasagna anyway. Italy for example never went through a process akin to Germany’s denazification, and in Spain, the democratising king, Juan Carlos, played a major role in the transition. Only in Greece and Portugal were there popular socialist insurrections that resulted in or contributed to the overthrow of the regimes: the Athens Polytechnic Uprising played a key role in the Metapolitefsi or ‘polity change’ (although much, much more than the crushed student protests were involved here, including a failed coup d’etat and the Turkish invasion of Cyprus), and in Portugal a proper left-wing rebellion, the Revolução dos Cravos or Carnation Revolution, brought down the Estado Novo regime. Although it is true in the case of the latter three countries that their late-in-the-day construction of welfare states in the 70s and 80s was largely carried out by social democratic forces, the architects of the Italian post-war state were the Christian Democrats, who dominated government for 50 years.

    “Political systems around the periphery typically display several of the following features: weak executives; weak central states relative to regions; constitutional protection of labour rights; consensus building systems which foster political clientalism; and the right to protest if unwelcome changes are made to the political status quo. The shortcomings of this political legacy have been revealed by the crisis. Countries around the periphery have only been partially successful in producing fiscal and economic reform agendas, with governments constrained by constitutions (Portugal), powerful regions (Spain), and the rise of populist parties (Italy and Greece).”

Let’s parse that paragraph, shall we? Weak executives means strong legislatures. That should be a good thing, no? Let us remember that it is the parliament that is sovereign. The executive in a democracy is supposed to be the body that merely carries out the bidding of the legislature. There is a reason why liberal democracy opted for parliaments and not a system of elected kings.

Oh, and we want strong central states. None of this local democracy nonsense, please.

JP Morgan, and presumably the EU powerbrokers they are ventriloquising for, finally are being honest with us: they want to do away with constitutional labour rights protections and the right to protest. And there has to be some way to prevent people electing the wrong parties.

Thankfully though, the authors note, “There is a growing recognition of the extent of this problem, both in the core and in the periphery. Change is beginning to take place.”

In particular, they highlight how Spain has begun “to address some of the contradictions of the post-Franco settlement” and rein in the regions.

But other than that, sadly, the process of de-democratization (okay – I’m calling it that. They call it “the process of political reform”) has “barely begun”.

Well, the JP Morgan paper may have been written in English, but there is a venerable Spanish phrase that that all good anti-fascists right across the eurozone periphery know and is probably the simplest and best response to such provocation: ¡No pasarán!

Some people (not me, you understand) might say that now was not a good time for European governments to be accepting any advice whatsoever from American bankers as to European nations' need to "improve their democracy", but I couldn't possibly comment.

IainB

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A Google engineer with integrity?
Quote
Google Engineer Wins NSA Award, Then Says NSA Should Be Abolished
Posted by timothy on Sunday July 28, 2013 @08:29AM
from the well-if-you'd-like-my-opinion-gentleman dept.

First time accepted submitter MetalliQaZ writes "Last week, Dr. Joseph Bonneau learned that he had won the NSA's first annual "Science of Security (SoS) Competition." The competition, which aims to honor the best 'scientific papers about national security' as a way to strengthen NSA collaboration with researchers in academia, honored Bonneau for his paper on the nature of passwords. And how did Bonneau respond to being honored by the NSA? By expressing, in an honest and bittersweet blog post, his revulsion at what the NSA has become: 'Simply put, I don't think a free society is compatible with an organisation like the NSA in its current form.'"

TaoPhoenix

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A Google engineer with integrity?

Naw, to be fair we should paraphrase that old saying. "There are engineers in Google with integrity. However Google as a whole is a disturbing entity etc."  As Dilbert was among the first to point out years ago, it's the pointy headed managers that orchestrate the evil things, and the engineers get stuck implementing them.


Renegade

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^^ Compartmentalization.
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker