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Author Topic: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?  (Read 2625 times)

Renegade

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The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« on: January 06, 2013, 06:45:58 PM »
Apparently temperatures loop, and at below absolute zero (0 K), things get pretty hot:

http://www.huffingto...ature_n_2404666.html

Quote
Absolute zero is often thought to be the coldest temperature possible. But now researchers show they can achieve even lower temperatures for a strange realm of "negative temperatures."

 Oddly, another way to look at these negative temperatures is to consider them hotter than infinity, researchers added.

 This unusual advance could lead to new engines that could technically be more than 100 percent efficient, and shed light on mysteries such as dark energy, the mysterious substance that is apparently pulling our universe apart.

 An object's temperature is a measure of how much its atoms move — the colder an object is, the slower the atoms are. At the physically impossible-to-reach temperature of zero kelvin, or minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 273.15 degrees Celsius), atoms would stop moving. As such, nothing can be colder than absolute zero on the Kelvin scale.

More at the link, and many other links.

My first reaction was that this sounds strikingly similar to how matter behaves between states, i.e. the specific heat capacity of freezing/melting/condensation/vapourisation, etc.

Seems like there really are no absolutes in this universe! :D
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Tinman57

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 08:34:17 PM »
  Like I've said many times, most of the stuff that I learned as a kid in science lab is now disproved.  Like the flow of electrons from + to - was wrong.  We now know the flow is from - to +.  Nowwhodathunkit?

barney

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 08:37:22 PM »
Quote
... nothing can be colder than absolute zero on the Kelvin scale.

Seems like there really are no absolutes in this universe! :D


Simple problem:  just develop a new scale  :P.  Or a new scientific field, theoretical thermodynamics  :huh:.

Isn't that how/why the Kelvin scale was developed  :-\?

Renegade

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 08:48:37 PM »
It is pretty bizarre how some things are taught as absolute gospel truth, then a few years later... whoops! Seems the second law of thermodynamics isn't really all as strict as we thought it was, etc. etc.

It's this kind of stuff that really makes me much more interested in the kind of science that is being done in some areas of cosmology and in plasma physics. The idea of the "electric universe" looks like a very neat way to reconceptualise matter and reality.
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fenixproductions

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 03:02:48 AM »
Not 100% accurate quote but close enough for me:
Quote from: Tim Minchin
Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

Sadly, since I had heard about dark mass and dark energy (and other dark mambo-jumbo), I've realized that current science is more like religion with pretty strange base.
Black holes with mass so big that nothing can escape… wait! They can radiate.
Lots of particles building world… wait! It does not sum up! OK now we have dark mass. Still not working… dark energy for rescue!
Nothing can be faster than light… OK tachyons.
Absolute zero? Now we have negative temperatures which are hotter than infinity. Seriously? Is it still math?

Eh, I am no longer even sure what am I complaining about.

Renegade

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 04:09:06 AM »
Eh, I am no longer even sure what am I complaining about.

Hahahaha~! ;D

I think I know what you're getting at (correct me if I'm wrong).

It's very frustrating to have to listen to "science zealots" that somehow have come to the conclusion that very single "law" of science is written in stone. If we follow the scientific method, i.e.:

Quote from: Tim Minchin
Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

It would seem to be pretty clear that a lot of "scientists" are religious zealots. i.e. When "hard science" is continually changing, and what we "knew" yesterday turns out to be false today, it's pretty safe to say that what we "know" today could very well end up being false tomorrow.

I'm not anti-science, but I am pretty much anti-religious zealotry in science.

Still, for practical purposes, it's pretty safe to say that 0 K is the lowest temperature. Just as long as we realize that there we really mean "practical" and not "truth".

I'm perfectly happy in adjusting my beliefs to align with experiment/observation. I know that I'm wrong about a lot of things -- I really just wish I knew which ones they were~! ;D :P
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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Fred Nerd

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 04:16:08 AM »
(written before Renegade's post. Interesting that we both reference Tim Minchin :) )
@fenix
I agree.
Not wanting to start a religious arguement, but I often wonder who is more more naive:
The Christian who believes the Good book because it is a book and it is good (like Tim Minchin sings) but in all of our history it hasn't been proven wrong and hasn't been changed. It just hasn't been proven right either.

Or, the athiest who blindly believes in 'science' since "'they' have worked it all out", even though just about every law has had to be rewritten. Even if it's just to apply to a theoretical situation.

People shouldn't be allowed to have a religious opinion if they can't state the opposition's point of view without getting angry.



Having said that, with the temperature predicted for tomorrow, we might want some of that 'ice'.

Renegade

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 04:26:03 AM »
^^ I can't take credit for the Tim Minchin quote - that was all fenix there!  :up:

Bowing out of the implications in this thread
I'm going to drop out of this line of discussion though - I've said as much as I'd like to on the topic here. It would be better here in the Basement. The topic here is getting into metaphysics, which really gets to the bottom, fundamentals of belief. i.e The really touchy stuff. I'd love to continue at the above link though. It's certainly an interesting and fun topic. :D

Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Jibz

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 04:58:44 AM »
I thought there was a good explanation of this stuff in this post. I don't know physics well enough to say if it's correct, but it seemed understandable as opposed to all the "omg hocus pocus harry potter hell freezes over breaking the laws of physics" posts on one side and the "thermal transcient quantum states in solid matter collissions provide ample basis for Leichmann-reductions of the bounded movement differential" posts on the other (and yes, that was total made up physics nonsense) :D.

Renegade

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 05:38:47 AM »
^^ Jibz - that was a pretty cool article. err... hot... err... ;) :D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

fenixproductions

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 07:26:18 AM »
@Renegade

You've got it correctly.

Tinman57

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Re: The temperature at which Hell freezes over - Absolute Zero?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 07:22:38 PM »
Not 100% accurate quote but close enough for me:
Quote from: Tim Minchin
Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

Sadly, since I had heard about dark mass and dark energy (and other dark mambo-jumbo), I've realized that current science is more like religion with pretty strange base.
Black holes with mass so big that nothing can escape… wait! They can radiate.
Lots of particles building world… wait! It does not sum up! OK now we have dark mass. Still not working… dark energy for rescue!
Nothing can be faster than light… OK tachyons.
Absolute zero? Now we have negative temperatures which are hotter than infinity. Seriously? Is it still math?

Eh, I am no longer even sure what am I complaining about.

  And now scientist are looking at the universe as a live entity and is searching for the brain!  Saw the ad on one of the discovery channels.....  You just can't make this stuff up!   :lol: