Author Topic: Are you going to wait for Windows 9? (Read 67097 times)

Arizona Hot · « **on:** November 20, 2012, 10:18 PM »

Here's 2 opinions of Windows 8, what's your view on them as related to Windows 8?

Revisiting Windows 1.0: How Microsoft’s first desktop gracefully failed

Design guru Nielsen Windows 8 UI 'smothers usability'

Are you going to wait for Windows 9?

Darwin · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2012, 10:22 PM »

I really don't see a difference between 7 and 8 other than the start menu. All of this angst is hot air in my opinion. The real things to be leary of are the fact that Windows 8 brings so little to the table and that MS seems to be shifting toward a more Apple-esque walled playground...

Renegade · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2012, 10:51 PM »

Windows GPL anyone?

(That version comes out after Windows Hell Froze Over.)

tomos · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2012, 05:32 AM »

The new UI side of Win8 is aimed at tablets and as such should, I think, be compared with whatever it is they have on iPads and the relevant Androids. That's a world I know nothing about so I cant comment.

I'm only using the desktop in Win8 - you do get thrown into the Tiled world occasionally but it's not a big deal I find. I suspect that's simply their way of doing a bit of advertising/exposure. The boot to 'home screen' is annoying but I'm presuming they'll allow us adjust that with SP1.
The implementation is uneven at times - a universal shortcut will work in one world but not in the other.

Ath · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2012, 06:06 AM »

Windows GPL anyone?
-Renegade (November 20, 2012, 10:51 PM)

Maybe this? http://www.reactos.org

40hz · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2012, 06:08 AM »

At the risk of sounding flip, I wasn't even waiting for Windows 8. $:-\$

dr_andus · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2012, 09:02 AM »

The new UI side of Win8 is aimed at tablets and as such should, I think, be compared with whatever it is they have on iPads and the relevant Androids. That's a world I know nothing about so I cant comment.
-tomos (November 21, 2012, 05:32 AM)

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2012, 09:31 AM »

I really don't see a difference between 7 and 8 other than the start menu. All of this angst is hot air in my opinion. The real things to be leary of are the fact that Windows 8 brings so little to the table and that MS seems to be shifting toward a more Apple-esque walled playground...
-Darwin (November 20, 2012, 10:22 PM)

Isn't that the point - the start menu (aka not-Metro) is set to become the ONLY interface in future incarnations. Already not-Metro includes browsing, email and media tools as standard and MS are ominously calling the trad dekstop the 'legacy desktop'.

They have made it very clear where they are heading.

I suspect by the time Windows 9 appears it won't even be called Windows and there won't be a desktop any more. Hell if Apple and MS get their way in the next 10 years there won't be desktop computers and laptops any more - we will all be using consumable, throwaway devices tied to their cash generation systems.

40hz · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2012, 10:25 AM »

I suspect by the time Windows 9 appears it won't even be called Windows and there won't be a desktop any more. Hell if Apple and MS get their way in the next 10 years there won't be desktop computers and laptops any more - we will all be using consumable, throwaway devices tied to their cash generation systems.
-Carol Haynes (November 21, 2012, 09:31 AM)

Precisely right. This isn't Microsoft attempting to change things around. It's Microsoft attempting to replace everything wholesale. And with something that makes no sense - except as part of a new revenue model.

None of this has anything to do with productivity, the end-user, or innovation. It has everything to do with IP protectionism, money, and customer lock-in.

And if the general computer using public lets them get away with it - or allows themselves to get bought off for so little in return - then they deserve the future they get.

There will always be the rebels...

Because we did it once before back in the late 70s and early 80s.

And we can do it again if we have to.

anandcoral · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2012, 10:40 AM »

- we will all be using consumable, throwaway devices tied to their cash generation systems.
-Carol Haynes (November 21, 2012, 09:31 AM)

...and some cash for we programmers.

Try to remember DOS 3.0. No 'undelete' command. Peter Norton made some cash.
Fast forward to IPhone OS. No 'cut-paste'. Many programmers made some cash.
Now Win 8. No 'start menu'. Start8 like makes some cash.

I try to see the positive side of things. I can not stop MS or Apple to do what they are doing, but see how we programmers are going to earn our daily bread from it. We need some base (OS) to program on it and supporting a small program is far easier for a small programmer than supporting a full OS, if he/she makes one.

At time of plain DOS, users needed consultant, from IT guys near him/her. Now internet gives us very wide choice both for users and programmers.

Do not worry, some programmer will make one 'program' which will remove/suppress all the annoyance of Win 8 and make it behave like Win 7, Mac or Linux, you name it.

Regards,

Anand

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2012, 11:53 AM »

From one of the articles from above:
"That lack of multiple window support forced Nielsen to dub it "one of the worst aspects of Windows 8 for power users."

Is that true even in desktop mode? Can someone clarify/confirm that That would be enough to keep me from using Win 8.

Edvard · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2012, 12:31 PM »

At the risk of sounding flip, I wasn't even waiting for Windows 8. $:-\$
-40hz (November 21, 2012, 06:08 AM)

Try to remember DOS 3.0. No 'undelete' command. Peter Norton made some cash.
Fast forward to IPhone OS. No 'cut-paste'. Many programmers made some cash.
-anandcoral (November 21, 2012, 10:40 AM)

Great observation, anandcoral. I always suspected that's why many of Windows' built-in tools left so much room for expansion or replacement.
That could be due simply to a "it works, don't fancy it up" design philosophy, but I often wondered...

No multiple window support?
Write tiling or floating window manager for Win8; make some cash.

In fact, if that's the design philosophy for Win8, a tiling window manager^w would fit in quite nicely, though I'm not a big fan myself...

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2012, 01:38 PM »

From one of the articles from above:
"That lack of multiple window support forced Nielsen to dub it "one of the worst aspects of Windows 8 for power users."

Is that true even in desktop mode? Can someone clarify/confirm that That would be enough to keep me from using Win 8.
-TaoPhoenix (November 21, 2012, 11:53 AM)

The fact that this question even exist is a testament to the steaming pile of FUD that's flying around the internet.

Not only no, but hell no that isn't even vaguely true. The Windows 8 desktop is a desktop just like every other desktop all the way back to Win95.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The start menu is "missing" in Windows 8 (Oh FFS) ... The Start Menu has been "Missing" since Win XP launched in 01. The Start Panel is what's actually "missing" in Windows 8. And I for one am actually tickled pink that the Start Menu has finally been taken out and shot in the head. Every time I get stuck in front of a machine that's been retro'd back to the start menu I feel like I've been instantly transported back to the 1870s, and am being forced to dig for potatoes with my teeth after my arms have been cut off!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And regarding the Windows 8 is poised at the brink of enslaving us in a gilded cage which will turn us all into palpitating porridge based eye puppets crap ... Can we at least try to keep in mind that this is totally conjecture. Nothing is or has been proven or verified as fact. No internal secret memos have been exposed substantiating any of these claims ... It's total assumption pure and simple.

Because it just might actually be a really handy step forward in user interaction if people could refrain from fashionably shitting all over it long enough to learn how to use the god damn thing.

wraith808 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:02 PM »

^ Ummm.... yeah. What he said.

... with less vitriol, though.

tomos · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:04 PM »

^ Ummm.... yeah. What he said.

... with less vitriol, though.
-wraith808 (November 21, 2012, 02:02 PM)

+1 & lol

tomos · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:16 PM »

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?
-dr_andus (November 21, 2012, 09:02 AM)

I cant say yet - I've only been messing around with it for a week - not using it that much.
I dont use 'the tiles' at all (I'm mostly not even online with the thing so most of those apps are useless to me).

Advantages for me:
I can easily change languages for the complete system.
AV works out of the box - there's been no nagging (some people might consider this a weakness e.g. for basic users)
Task Manager is more than enough for me - in win7 I use process explorer.

(Percieved or real) Disadvantages can mostly be overcome (see my Win8 Tips thread).

Otherwise I'd say it's very similar to Win 7. There's still going to be a learning curve though.
To be honest, if I had to get a new desktop right now, I'd go for windows 7.
But in a couple of months my answer would probably be different.

40hz · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:41 PM »

And regarding the Windows 8 is poised at the brink of enslaving us in a gilded cage which will turn us all into palpitating porridge based eye puppets crap ... Can we at least try to keep in mind that this is totally conjecture. Nothing is or has been proven or verified as fact. No internal secret memos have been exposed substantiating any of these claims ... It's total assumption pure and simple.
-Stoic Joker (November 21, 2012, 01:38 PM)

Stripped of the hyperbole on both sides, what it comes down to is pretty simple. And it doesn't take rocket science to analyze or see it.

Microsoft has struggled for two decades playing second fiddle to Apple's marketing push and being criticized for being late out the gate and not innovative enough. 90% of that is because they're providing a very "open" operating system. Because they don't control the environment they're fighting a bit of a losing battle. And they know it.

People complain about Windows' speed and stability deteriorating over time. But if you ever run a machine that's 'vanilla' Microsoft from front to back (i.e. Windows/Office/IE/Live/certified hardware) and nothing but Microsoft supplied software, you never run into that. Those machines work like champs.

Add one third party app or utility and things start to happen.

With a closed eco-system, where not just anybody can do whatever they want, you see stability go way up and support calls go way down.

That is what Microsoft is moving towards. Apps only available and installable under the watchful eye of an app store. Certified hardware (under the threat of Microsoft manufacturing its own) that fully complies with Microsoft guidelines.

It will be a whole new world. Better in many respects.

But with this comes the natural (and predictable) tendency to exert control beyond what's needed purely for quality and stability. And that is where the concern comes in. Because with amore formalized and controlled system, development costs go up - and innovation gets slowed. Which basically means small maverick engineering businesses (which usually introduce the real breakthroughs) are effectively frozen out of the game.

That's where the concern comes from. Not so much fear that Ballmer has allied himself with the Grays from Area 51 - although I wouldn't rule it out.

Josh · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:43 PM »

From one of the articles from above:
"That lack of multiple window support forced Nielsen to dub it "one of the worst aspects of Windows 8 for power users."

Is that true even in desktop mode? Can someone clarify/confirm that That would be enough to keep me from using Win 8.
-TaoPhoenix (November 21, 2012, 11:53 AM)

The fact that this question even exist is a testament to the steaming pile of FUD that's flying around the internet.

Not only no, but hell no that isn't even vaguely true. The Windows 8 desktop is a desktop just like every other desktop all the way back to Win95.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The start menu is "missing" in Windows 8 (Oh FFS) ... The Start Menu has been "Missing" since Win XP launched in 01. The Start Panel is what's actually "missing" in Windows 8. And I for one am actually tickled pink that the Start Menu has finally been taken out and shot in the head. Every time I get stuck in front of a machine that's been retro'd back to the start menu I feel like I've been instantly transported back to the 1870s, and am being forced to dig for potatoes with my teeth after my arms have been cut off!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And regarding the Windows 8 is poised at the brink of enslaving us in a gilded cage which will turn us all into palpitating porridge based eye puppets crap ... Can we at least try to keep in mind that this is totally conjecture. Nothing is or has been proven or verified as fact. No internal secret memos have been exposed substantiating any of these claims ... It's total assumption pure and simple.

Because it just might actually be a really handy step forward in user interaction if people could refrain from fashionably shitting all over it long enough to learn how to use the god damn thing.
-Stoic Joker (November 21, 2012, 01:38 PM)

Big Frapping +1!

allen · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:50 PM »

Here's a nice little rebuttal to Nielsen's thoughts.

superboyac · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:05 PM »

A comment that resonates with me from somewhere on the web:

Once I gave Metro a chance on my desktop computer, it was pretty good. But I still installed a start screen remover and program to get my start menu back. Windows 8 has some really good features for power users... I'm sure everyone knows by now.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:39 PM »

And regarding the Windows 8 is poised at the brink of enslaving us in a gilded cage which will turn us all into palpitating porridge based eye puppets crap ... Can we at least try to keep in mind that this is totally conjecture. Nothing is or has been proven or verified as fact. No internal secret memos have been exposed substantiating any of these claims ... It's total assumption pure and simple.
-Stoic Joker (November 21, 2012, 01:38 PM)

Stripped of the hyperbole on both sides, what it comes down to is pretty simple. And it doesn't take rocket science to analyze or see it.
-40hz (November 21, 2012, 02:41 PM)

Both sides? Seriously? There is hyperbole on both sides. You have one side spewing FUD (ala the Vista days), and the other side saying Jesus would you just friggin try the thing?

And no it isn't just that cut and dried obvious that this is the beginning of the end of anything. It's just an innovative step that everybody is strangely pissed off about. Yes they have an app store...they did before too. But now the app store has apps that can be used on desktops and tablets. Well gee-wizz what a weird assed thing to do for a company that is trying to create a unified user experience.

The only thing that's bloody obvious is that there was no way in hell that desktop applications were going to run properly, or be usable on a phone. But the phone apps were quite usable on a tablet...which also sucked at running desktop applications. Doesn't leave a lot of options now does it. Then there was the several years old and for the most part completely ignored Windows SideStep (name something to that effect) that was to allow the user to do basic stuff on the fly from a small screen in the lid of a closed laptop. But it totally sucked because the apps in question were not designed well for that small of a screen. Hm...

So what type of apps do we need??

But... But... But..! ...They're in an [Horrified Gasp!] App Store!?!! Yeah So. Where the hell else are they going to put them so that they're easy to get and install on a phone (or tablet for that matter) C-Nets website? Hell I can't even navigate that maze (without screaming) with a full desktop half the time.

But they restricted Side Loading - Yes much to the relief of mobile phone support companies everywhere. The point is - limited or not - they allowed it for enterprise and developers. It could just as easily be opened going forward if people keep the shitware down to a dull roar.

Think about all the years MS begged and pleaded upon def ears to stop using undocumented functions, sloppy coding practices, and etc. Did anybody listen?? No. 70% if the Windows API was deprecating during XP SP2. Now people had to listen...but only some did. Now they ratchet down another notch - because they basically have to - and I think (in part) the punishment is deserved.

40hz · « **Reply #21 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:45 PM »

@SJ et al - Ok. Tempers seem to be starting to run a little high here. So I'm going to bow out for now and leave it to others.

Happy thanksgiving all!

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #22 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:00 PM »

Granted I do tend to be blunt at times, but I'm not angry. I'm just tired of the preclusive assertion that the end is nye.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #23 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:17 PM »

It isn't me that described Windows 8 desktop as 'legacy' it was MS! The fact that there is only minimal development on the desktop from Windows 7 says a lot about their intentions for the trad desktop.

Call me cynical if you like but the reason MS is calling something 'legacy' is because you can no longer rely on it being present in future versions.

MS are openly positioning themselves to move to a locked in infrastructure. Sure they will allow people to write software for not-Metro but they will charge you to validate software as suitable for their store in order to get it listed at all. Remember no downloads for the not-Metro interface except from MS's vetted store, and absolutely no adult orientated material, including games, allowed. Look at how much they currently they charge developers wanting to develop certified drivers! Once approved MS collect 30%, or whatever cut they choose when the dust settles, revenue on sales. This is yet another way MS will screw money out of developers ... an easy way to make cash for no work. They'd be stupid to produce a fully complete interface as it would limit their earnings!!!

wraith808 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:37 PM »

It isn't me that described Windows 8 desktop as 'legacy' it was MS! The fact that there is only minimal development on the desktop from Windows 7 says a lot about their intentions for the trad desktop.
-Carol Haynes (November 21, 2012, 04:17 PM)

I know that some people are calling the classic desktop 'legacy' and I've seen it bandied about... but can you show me somewhere that MS has said it's legacy? I think that non-Metro says a lot about their intentions towards tablets, but not necessarily towards desktops. I think if they're guilty of anything, it's feeling things out and not setting their path out there because they don't know what it is. And I think that's worst case.