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Author Topic: Is Linux just a hobby?  (Read 28899 times)
Tuxman
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« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2012, 10:27:10 AM »

Source?
services.msc.

Source?
services.msc.

Source?
Subjective impression.
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2012, 10:32:04 AM »

Quote
MATE is not a WM or DE though. That's what most techies may underrate.

MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code. It is going to be ported on GTK3+ soon. I am tracking mate changes on github and it is DE written over gnome 2. It was forked because many old gnome 2 users wanted menu based panel navigation instead of gnome3.

Anyway, this thread was more of a drivel rather than problem solving or positive look towards linux, so I am not surprised that many other linux users on DC are ignoring it. If OP was that interested in linux he could have thought about fixing issues rather than taking potshots. Some of the issues mentioned here are usually discussed on linux forums and can be easily tackled but there seems to be no interest on that part. So this is kinda derailed discussion.
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Tuxman
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« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2012, 10:35:53 AM »

MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code.
Gnome 2 is not a window manager.
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2012, 10:40:25 AM »

So We should call it Shell instead of DE/WM?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME
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Tuxman
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« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2012, 10:42:25 AM »

DE is fine. A desktop environment contains the "desktop" and some applications AFAIK, like KDE, so Gnome 2 is a DE too (Evolution etc.).
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« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2012, 10:49:17 AM »

Once again, trolling a topic because of semantics issues.
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Tuxman
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« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2012, 11:46:50 AM »

No, because of wrong things said.
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40hz
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« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2012, 12:01:08 PM »

MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code.
Gnome 2 is not a window manager.

Acknowledged (minor) technical distinction to be sure. But it hardly matters in the context of this particular discussion.  smiley

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Paul Keith
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« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2012, 02:51:21 AM »

Quote
MATE is not a WM or DE though. That's what most techies may underrate.

MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code. It is going to be ported on GTK3+ soon. I am tracking mate changes on github and it is DE written over gnome 2. It was forked because many old gnome 2 users wanted menu based panel navigation instead of gnome3.

Why didn't they port said WM or shell then from the beginning? (You know...before calling it Gnome 3)

Did no one seriously think people wouldn't want menu based panel navigation or however the techies phrases it?

Like I said, underration. There's two main philosophical need why a DM or WM or shell is made besides a hobby.

1) Someone wants to port over a better or more familiar user interface.

2) Someone wants to bring something better.

MATE was not done/is not being ported for that purpose. Worse, gnome 2 was not broken. Even worse, not many embrace it's attempt.

"Oh it's just a WM."

"Oh it's going to be ported anyway."

To quote the first paragraph of one of the first search results when you Google for Gnome 3 sucks:

http://ingeek.com/yes-gnome-3-sucks/

Quote
What a complete disaster. More troubling than the technical implications is the attitude prevalent among developers and fans of this holy new version of Gnome that we should adapt to our computers rather than have them adapt to us. A perfect example of why programmers, just like many other types of smart people, suck. They think their intelligence qualifies them to make better choices for others.

The next paragraph also makes a case for why it is a hobby regardless whether the OP was serious or shallow or trolling in the thread:

Quote
Open source is a fantastic development model. It produces superior software at an obviously lower price, which results in a win-win situation for the consumer. I do however believe that one of the underlying causes of what I will refer to as “the Gnome 3 problem” is the simple fact that free and open source software is not market-driven to the extent that commercial software is. A commercial software firm would never dream of implementing such radical and unpopular changes especially in such a short period of time. It would be disastrous. Users would revolt with their wallets and money would be lost. Just imagine if Microsoft Windows were to completely revamp their front-end; remove desktop icons, minimize and maximize buttons, and kill the start menu. It would be suicide.

I mean look at your reply even. You basically omitted all context only to stick with a technical semantic where you in turn get called for your technical semantic and even if the OP was serious, the essence of his title would be lost and hijacked by whether MATE is or is not a WM/DE.
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2012, 03:40:04 AM »

Quote
Why didn't they port said WM or shell then from the beginning? (You know...before calling it Gnome 3)
What do you mean? I didn't get you here.

Quote
Did no one seriously think people wouldn't want menu based panel navigation or however the techies phrases it?
On touch interface menu simply don't work that is why Touch based KDE is different from desktop. Many other WM/DE are thinking about touch interface as well. So this decade is more of change for all of us. Saying it sucks doesn't cut it. I used to hate unity and gnome 3 too but it seems to be making me more productive compared to menus. In case of gnome, they wanted to make interface same for both touch and desktop. Still menu-less interface is not that bad, it's just that windows migrants feel odd using it. Mac and the long term linux are not criticizing gnome 3 as much as windows migrants do. So i don't know what are you trying to prove here with context related to "gnome 3 sucks" when almost every commercial OS has it's shortcoming which are even worst.

Quote
MATE was not done/is not being ported for that purpose.
'

You need to read this thread to see how the gnome 3 fork MATE and cinnamon started.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11333073
This thread is from the MATE creator who ported gnome 2 on GTK3 libs on current debian builds that lets it coexist with gnome 3. Though his initial frustration with gnome 3 is now edited. You can use wayback machine to read that post if you want. It was ported because he wanted the traditional gnome 2 interface.

Quote
Like I said, underration. There's two main philosophical need why a DM or WM or shell is made besides a hobby.
1) Someone wants to port over a better or more familiar user interface.
2) Someone wants to bring something better.
Gnome 2 is traditional interface which was inspired by old mac interface. Gnome was following mac's design practices. With gnome 3 they made many new changes in the design that doesn't go with regular desktop expectation. MATE was not ported to make it more better, it was ported because people are used to old interface.
Quote
The next paragraph also makes a case for why it is a hobby regardless whether the OP was serious or shallow or trolling in the thread:
If you want to make any working thing hobby then nobody can stop you. Even apple and windows can be hobby and we can go on quote trolling with why windows vista sucks, why apple jaguar sucks etc. Point is that just because people don't find it usability in it or learned to fail the new technology doesn't make it hobby, it proves their inability for things.
Quote
I mean look at your reply even. You basically omitted all context only to stick with a technical semantic where you in turn get called for your technical semantic and even if the OP was serious, the essence of his title would be lost and hijacked by whether MATE is or is not a WM/DE.
I didn't omitted context, i simply wanted to point out that MATE is now working WM/DE and is not being treated like gnome 2 fork anymore because many parts of it are rewritten. As for my replies being semantically corrected, I have noticed that member doing the same in many other threads with his own ways of trolling for finding semantic arguments which he thinks is right. So i simply ignore his comments as they lack some valuable contribution or are not meant to be helpful at all.  As for your point on OP being serious, it was started as a drivel thread and he took more positive approach based on replies he got. If he were to get some replies to agree with him, this thread could have gone in more drivel than being what is currently discussed. OP was far from serious.


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Paul Keith
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2012, 04:52:51 AM »

Yes, OP was far from serious hence my usage of the word "If".

Again I go back to the article:

Quote
Forced change (key word: forced), by definition, causes friction and therefore hurts productivity.

As you said, MATE broke the mentality of a WM ported for the better. Therefore it's not your traditional WM. It was a port to bring back a one generation change because of the forced change that occurred.

No one is saying change should not happen but this was not only cutting edge design (something many designers tend to prevent average users from having by default) but it was failed cutting edge design both because it didn't have MATE built in as a counter measure and because it's just not that good.

Again to quote the link:

Quote
The worst part about the destruction of customization options in the name of “ease of use” is that it seems to have backfired horribly. Gnome 3 is not easy to use. For the developers who created it, maybe, for all of us normal people, no. It’s a lose-lose situation.

Three clicks to get to an application? Then when you complain, some Gnome 3 fanboy tells you it’s actually easier, since you can just type the name of the application? Brilliant! If I wanted to type the names of my applications, I would be using the freaking command line.

I don't know if I can get to you however. You're intermixing hobby with the rebuttal of new vs. old. Neither is really connected and I didn't merge them.

Note that any working thing can be stopped from being a hobby by a boss, a design philosophy, beta testing, controlled migration, etc. etc.

As far as the new vs. the old. Gnome 3 did not just try to be new. It was bad. It was bad because it didn't wait for Mate to mature before being Gnome 3 and it's bad because no one simply said "it sucks". Of course it doesn't cut it if the words "it sucks" were said with no other explanation or justification. No one did though so why reply to this straw man instead of the actual implication?

It's just as bad as your inability to grasp the difference with desiring for a familiar interface because you don't want the new interface vs. the desiring for a previous generation old interface because it's both familiar and better than the new interface which was shoddy implementation of a so called interface being adopted to the change of the decade as if that justifies forced change especially within the context of it's initial release.
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2012, 05:51:54 AM »

Quote
As you said, MATE broke the mentality of a WM ported for the better. Therefore it's not your traditional WM. It was a port to bring back a one generation change because of the forced change that occurred.
Exactly.

Quote
No one is saying change should not happen but this was not only cutting edge design (something many designers tend to prevent average users from having by default) but it was failed cutting edge design both because it didn't have MATE built in as a counter measure and because it's just not that good.
If you don't give new interface the amount of time it needs to make things more productive, you'll never find out how usable they are. I am spending time with Unity (which is built over gnome 3 shell) and I find it more productive over the menu interface of gnome or KDE. It is all about adopting if it's more productive. HUD (headsup display) on unity is quite useful and more productive compared to old menu based interface. I can see how much they are usesful on tablets if gnome or ubuntu based tablets ever make it to the market. That's all i can say about forced change vs not wanting to change thinking.

Quote
You're intermixing hobby with the rebuttal of new vs. old. Neither is really connected and I didn't merge them.
Not exactly. If we go by OP's definition. Hobby is something that is not working as per his perception of how things should work as he was taught at first place(being familiar and all). Going by that definition when windows user tries MAC it becomes hobby. For windows user, linux is hobby because they're too lazy to understand how things are different than their walled garden windows.

For me crappy innovation like Ribbon interface and Metro interface are part of hobby. I can explain why they are less of innovation and more of hobby but we derailed a lot already here.
Quote
Gnome 3 did not just try to be new. It was bad.

I have to disagree. If you're into doing quick tasks, gnome 3 is way superior and can get tasks done way quicker than MATE and gnome 2. It requires more usage than just mere reaction over look and feel.

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It was bad because it didn't wait for Mate to mature before being Gnome 3 and it's bad because no one simply said "it sucks".

What gnome 3 has to do with MATE being mature or not? Gnome 3 was released months before the release of MATE. In fact MATE was born because gnome foundation ditched the traditional desktop interface in version 2.

Quote
Of course it doesn't cut it if the words "it sucks" were said with no other explanation or justification. No one did though so why reply to this straw man instead of the actual implication?
Simple because many people who gave that reaction failed to use that interface and presented no measured results.
Quote
It's just as bad as your inability to grasp the difference with desiring for a familiar interface because you don't want the new interface vs. the desiring for a previous generation old interface because it's both familiar and better than the new interface
I don't think it's my inability to grasp things here where I corrected you MATE was born out of gnome 3s change of direction. It shows your inability to understand things here that old interface is soon going to be deprecated by WMs because of the touch interface hype. I never said I don't want the new interface in fact I have changed on that over time, I don't know what gave you that impression. As for previous generation of interface being familiar, MATE is going to change on that too. Are you going to still hold the same argument against them without keeping track of changes? Linux is all about changes, I learned that hard way. You can not quote old things on linux (or it's apps, wm's) and hold strong opinion on their current changes. Linux is very dynamic on WM/DE changes front these days.
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Paul Keith
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2012, 07:36:44 AM »

Stating quick tasks does not equal measured results either FYI especially when it comes to productivity.

Stating Linux is very dynamic on WM/DE changes front these days is also not much of a statement. Dynamic compared to what? Even in pre-Gnome 3 days there were many WMs/DEs unique to Linux especially when you factor in other micro-apps that change how windows are managed but are not full shells.

Mate is related to Gnome 3 because Mate was a reaction to Gnome 3. You know it's bad design when someone needs to recreate an old interface. Not only that but you can't hide behind the amount of time it needs since you didn't specify such an amount and you're railing on people not providing any measured result. These two are contrary.

This is how Mate relates to Gnome 3. If Gnome 3 waited for MATE's maturity then there would have been less complaints. Instead it was force change. A change that wasn't just forced upon Linux newbies but forced upon long time Gnome users.

It is also disingenuous to both call the OP's words drivel and then to rely on his drivel to redefine the meaning of hobby according to him. Drivel means you can reinvent what he really meant when he said of hobby to support your own bias on what drivel really means. It also goes counter to you ignoring his drivel. Again this is a strawman rebuttal. You omit crucial words such as "Ifs", you would rather side with what you consider drivel than what the common lay person understands as hobby or even what that article defines as unprofessional forced change, you are merely supplanting your own bias instead of debunking anything.

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mahesh2k
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2012, 08:40:12 AM »

Quote
Stating quick tasks does not equal measured results either FYI especially when it comes to productivity.

You have to actually open to up measured results in order to understand what they are. If you have never used HUD or Gnome 3 equal to the time you used traditional interface, argument is moot. Productivity regarding tasks is measured against time. HUD performs faster compared to menu interface on that.

Quote
Stating Linux is very dynamic on WM/DE changes front these days is also not much of a statement.
Sure it is not for you because you're not even keeping up with the changes in the WM and you are not even sure how those DE's are changed or from where they are forked and for what purpose.

Quote
Dynamic compared to what?

Dynamic compared to their own previous versions or even you can say windows versions. You can't beat linux WM's like dead horse by comparing gnome 2 version with windows 7 or 8, when you are not even aware that there are faster and more productive and responsive UI's coming out. If you're holding onto linux with your presumptions and going to be negative about it, then that is purely out of your perspective, that is not WM's fault.
Quote
Even in pre-Gnome 3 days there were many WMs/DEs unique to Linux especially when you factor in other micro-apps that change how windows are managed but are not full shells.
How many of them were more productive and eye candy or say polished at the same time? There was nothing unique in them when they were just mimicking the traditional desktop features that you can find on any other desktop. Problem with linux haters is that they're open to apple or windows innovation in UI or some design crap but if open source community does any innovation there is criticism for the sake of it, atleast criticism out of no strong points.

Quote
Mate is related to Gnome 3 because Mate was a reaction to Gnome 3. You know it's bad design when someone needs to recreate an old interface. Not only that but you can't hide behind the amount of time it needs since you didn't specify such an amount and you're railing on people not providing any measured result. These two are contrary.
Sure it was reaction to new interface. But in order to call it bad you have to use it for equally long time like the old interface. Initial reaction was purely based on the look and feel and uncomfortable feel that people got while navigating the desktop. Nobody focused on productivity to get things done. On productivity scale it is far more superior. Have you even used gnome 3 for searching files, programs and to manage multiple workspace? I underestimated all this earlier with same arguments against gnome 3 and after using it I realized it was meant to save a lot of my time. Sure it resembles apple's design, but it is working. Your asssume that MATE retains the superiority of old interface with that fork,in reality MATE is just a refuge desktop that many people have as of now. Same goes for cinnamon. It is about time that linux like any other desktop going to make changes to the traditional interface, there is nothing wrong with that. It is natural for people who are into UI based desktop to get shocked to see major changes in their desktop. There is going to be another shock when tablets will be more cheaper and we'll be using new touch responsive UI in next year or so.

Quote
This is how Mate relates to Gnome 3. If Gnome 3 waited for MATE's maturity then there would have been less complaints. Instead it was force change. A change that wasn't just forced upon Linux newbies but forced upon long time Gnome users.
Again same thing. Is it hard for you to get the hard fact that MATE was born after Gnome3?  huh If you check the thread which i posted earlier you'll realize that MATE's maturity has nothing to do with gnome3. It's like saying baby shouldn't have been born before it gets mature in womb. Here is something for  easy. Gnome 3 first and MATE second and also one important point, MATE is based on OLD gnome 2 code which used GTK 2+ which is now going to be deprecated. MATE was born because gnome-classic session is going to be ignored when gnome 4 comes for new hardware and 3d acceleration.  It is not forced at all. Gnome-panel or gnome classic session was always there for people who wanted to use the old gnome interface. It was not forced at all. You're talking about linux here, open source community always cares for people, because it is for people software, not profit. LIke donationcoders, they are running totally on worldwide donations and there are people working from around the world for gnome.

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It is also disingenuous to both call the OP's words drivel and then to rely on his drivel to redefine the meaning of hobby according to him. Drivel means you can reinvent what he really meant when he said of hobby to support your own bias on what drivel really means.
Not exactly, it is drivel. Google "confirmation bias" to validate whether it was my bias to call it drivel or it was drivel again linux to begin with. If you carefully read his post until he decided to approach linux with open mind. I am not here to defend linux or open source. I was in thread to see if he wants the solution to his problem then we got derailed to what we are posting right now.

Quote
you would rather side with what you consider drivel than what the common lay person understands as hobby or even what that article defines as unprofessional forced change, you are merely supplanting your own bias instead of debunking anything.
If you're talking about your ignorance for gnome-classic session which shows gnome 3 was not forced change, then I have posted about that in my previous point. I have nothing to debunk. It is something you want to make up  from this discussion.
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Paul Keith
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« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2012, 07:39:50 AM »

No the arguments can't be moot because,

1) productivity is not just based on speed (i.e. time management)

2) speed is also based on the user's knowledge and skills with utilizing certain aspects of a feature (say mouse clicks vs. hotkeys)

3) You were the one who lumped the other side as all not using measured results so you raised the issue. By calling it a moot argument, you would be calling your own original statement a moot argument.

4) Blind tests are more important than being opened to measured results. In fact, while opening up is important to users less willing to experiment, it is also deadly for more intelligent users who might be biased towards a positive result.

5) A small increase in productivity can't make up for the longer time to adopt a new piece of interface and Linux by default is plagued with other areas that are just as time consuming besides the DE/WM.

Mind you you're wrong. It doesn't require any advanced user to keep up with developments to know how dynamic Linux WMs can be. You're showing your faulty prejudices here.

You can't even figure out something as basic as I think Linux WMs are dynamic so just because I raised the issue of Gnome 3 you immediately assumed:

Quote from: mahesh2k
Sure it is not for you because you're not even keeping up with the changes in the WM and you are not even sure how those DE's are changed or from where they are forked and for what purpose.

...when caught on this you went back on your statement and rephrased the question into:

Quote from: mashesh2k
How many of them were more productive and eye candy or say polished at the same time? There was nothing unique in them when they were just mimicking the traditional desktop features that you can find on any other desktop. Problem with linux haters is that they're open to apple or windows innovation in UI or some design crap but if open source community does any innovation there is criticism for the sake of it, atleast criticism out of no strong points.

Problem with people with prejudices is that they jump to conclusions.

1) Desktop features can still mean many things depending on how the usability goes. It's not traditional vs. new but you're trying to lump those to paint a straw man where you can then argue against "criticism out of no strong points".

2) Many Windows user do use things like BB4Win.

3) If Gnome 3 was polished, there wouldn't have been as much complaints.

4) You talk all these good game but really the only example you have stated so far is Gnome 3 and the only thing you have hidden behind so far is Gnome 2. I don't deny that you may be more knowledgeable and aggressive at keeping up with news of development but it's like a mainstream fan talking about mainstream stuff and then railing all about polish and then flip flopping and talking about productivity all without defining much of them and when asked for proof after raising their measured data argument, then goes back on their statement and just say the argument is moot and you have to be open to the argument at the same time.

Sorry. Your vague line is contradictory. You can't say you follow developments only to say it's all about productivity only to then say it has to be polished only to then say some other things when the context was whether Linux simply has dynamic WMs/DEs. You're making new criterias as you're caught when you know my original statement is true so long as you don't make statements as as you go along:

Quote
Even in pre-Gnome 3 days there were many WMs/DEs unique to Linux especially when you factor in other micro-apps that change how windows are managed but are not full shells.

Some proof:

http://gnome-look.org/con...t/show.php?content=107488

http://gnome-look.org/con...t/show.php?content=101604

As small as these were, these were generally what got people excited about windows management in general and you didn't have to be a techie or a Linux user or even a constant development news stalker to grasp your mind around that these were fresher concepts that didn't need to hide behind what's new or old or mainstream.

The fact is you've already listed the facts:

MATE came after Gnome 3 because G3 is bad/was not polished. If you want to soften it up then fine: Gnome 3 is mediocre/above average/average.

MATE came after Gnome 3 because people wanted Gnome 2 but there was no way to go back to Gnome 2 on Gnome 3.

Hence from the beginning it was bad. Again, two words forced change. You want to make it semantic with things like settings, fine: forced default change.

It doesn't matter what new things you keep bringing up. You were the one who first replied to me, I clarified what my post meant based on your initial statements, and I simply replied based on the information you wrote at the time.

Not only that, some of the new issues you bring up are pretty sketchy. MATE never retained gnome 2 completely. That was one of the arguments why people constantly railed on Gnome 3. They said MATE is not just doing it for them.

...then some of the things you insert are flat out malicious. Secretly injecting the word superiority so that you can argue that Gnome 3 is superior for example:

Quote
Your asssume that MATE retains the superiority of old interface with that fork

I'm not saying you're intentionally planning it out but come on! Show a little sincerity here will you?

Is it really that hard for you to get the hard fact that Gnome 2 came before Gnome 3 and MATE only gained in popularity after because Gnome 3 wasn't doing it for certain people?

Is it so hard to understand that MATE's maturity is linked to the maturity of Gnome 3 because MATE's maturity is linked to getting back the maturity of Gnome 2?

Some of the new stuff you're bringing up are just so weird. You realize how close you sound like a cult member when you say things like:

Quote
open source community always cares for people

It's all over the place. Again, I probably won't get you because you're accusing me of making shit up and by showing you where you're making shit up it's probably coming off like now I'm the one accusing you back but you have to see some of the obvious faulty jumps to logic you're making up.
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« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2012, 08:21:34 AM »

LinuxLiveUSB has been a precious aid in getting LinuxMint 13 Cinnamon to work on a ol' Dell .32bit with Vista on it.
This program called "Lili" slightly modifies the .iso file to make it work on .32 bit system.
http://linuxliveusb.com/


Slowly getting more and more acquainted with Linux, i'm really liking it!  Kiss
It's so much faster than Vista (understatement) and even better than Windows7!
A bit quirky at times but quick reboot makes up for that disadvantage.

Now, if i could only get a driver for the CanoScan Lide70 ...
Apparently if you get a driver close to that one, you can get it to work.
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bobc4012
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« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2012, 02:27:54 AM »

Late to the show here. First, the most popular Linux distro (distribution) has been "Ubuntu" (Ubuntu is actually Debian-based). Linux Mint (and a few others are actually Ubuntu-based). Kubuntu is an Ubuntu derivative that uses the KDE Desktop Environment rather than Gnome. Ubuntu Ver. 10.10 was the last version to use Gnome 2. It switched to the Unity Desktop in 11.04 (which, from what I understand, Windows 8 Metro mimics to an extent - not sure how much, since I could never get any of the three Win. 8 Previews to install in VirtualBox, in spite of sufficient memory and HD space on a new Win. 7 AMD64 machine). Other Distros have moved to Gnome 3. The one thing I liked about Ubuntu (and some of its derivatives) was the ability to install inside a Windows directory (called a Wubi install) and avoid dual booting which can cause problems on occasion as the Windows loaders and Grub (Linux loader) do not play nicely with each other. The Ubuntu CD cotains an "exe" file, named "wubi". It actaully installs Ubuntu in a Windows directory, like installing any other Windows app. I have an older XP laptop with this setup and Ubuntu runs just fine (I do defrag occasionally). With Win. 7 and a heftier system, I installed VirtualBox on my Win. 7 machine and have 4 different Linux distros installed in VMs. I can run Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome faster in a VM Linux distro than they actually run native on Win. 7. Performance of other Linux apps seem to be just fine.

The one thing I didn't like with Unity, was Unity Dash (Metro-like) and when you had a file manager display (like a directory display) it moved the Winows "Min./Max./Close" icons to the left side (similar to Apple) there is a config file that can be modified to set them back to the right side. I did notice in Ubuntu 12.04, that Ubuntu Tweak (like Windows Tweak utilities), you could set it back to the right side (where God intended). Another thiing, you can install multiple desktop environments in Linux. The site http://www.renewablepcs.c...-linux/kde-gnome-or-xfce/ is a nice starting point on the more popular desktops. When you get the Log-on screen after boot-up, the top-right corner of the log-on box has an icon, click on it and choose the desktop - assuming it is installed). You have a number of GUI ways to install desktops and other apps on Ubuntu. The first way is using the Synaptic Package Manager (SPM). You can see all available apps (or apps in a specific category). Check a box and click "Apply" and let it install. Another way is via the Ubuntu Software Center. Although the format is somewhat different than the SPM, you select an app and click on install. While the install is taking place, you can click on another app and it will be stacked for install. You can also select "Software Sources", which opens up access to S/W apps not in the Ubuntu repository. You can also download Linux Debian-based apps (.deb) and use GDebi as the GUI to install. Also, Redhat (Fedora) apps (.rpm) can be downladed and converted (Alien) and installed. While I suspect some may not run smoothly, those that I have tried did not have any problems).

I preferred the Gnome 2 desktop, but under Unity, I installed the XFCE desktop as it is close to Gnome 2 (as is Classic Gnome). The thing I used heavily in Gnome 2 were the 2 panels (task-bars), top and bottom. Gnome 2 also allowed me to easily moved the icons on the panels to where I wanted them. There is also another Ubuntu based distro called Zorin_OS. The lastest is Release 6 (Core). What makes it interesting is you can select one of 3 desktop/menu environments - Gnome 2, Windows XP or Windows 7. There is a paid version which, I believe, also allows for an Apple desktop. The core underneath is still Linux, of course, but it does give that familiar look and feel. Zorin_OS installs with its own browser, but you can select from the menu (Applications -> Internet -> Zorin Browser Manager) Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome or Midori (in Zorin_OS 6 - Zorin_OS 5.2 Core, it was under Applications -> System Tools -> ZBM). Those who are interested in trying it out, can download it from the Zorin site http://zorin-os.com/free.html . I don't know if Zorin OS 5.2 can be found anymore - Gnome 2 and Zorin_OS 5.2 had on the top left corner, the menu items "Applications Places and System" - in Zorin_OS 6, they moved part of the "System" under "Applications -> System Tools" - probably due to the underlaying changes made in Ubuntu 12.04 (as 5.2 was based on Ubuntu 11.04). The download is 1.3GB (32bit) or 1.4GB (64bit). There are 4 sites, I recommend the NLUUG site as the fastest. Softpredia also offers the downloads - I presume from their site and not a redirection to the Zorin site.

BTW, someone posted a comment their was no equivalent to the Windows Task Manager, there is - it is the "System Monitor", found under "Administration". I have its icon installed on my top panel so I have ready access in case an app ever gets hung up.
 
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« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2012, 03:04:39 AM »

BTW, someone posted a comment their was no equivalent to the Windows Task Manager, there is - it is the "System Monitor", found under "Administration".
Depending on your desktop environment.
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« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2012, 07:40:23 AM »

Speaking of Zorin...

Have just tried 6 and these are my initial observations:

Pros:
-Installation process took a little over 15 min.
-Installation of initial major updates didn't stop me from using the browser (or other apps).
-Gives the impression of being lightweight.

Cons:
-The name Zorin sounds like some kind of medication.
-The Z logo is un-aesthetic.
-Google Chrome is proposed as default.
-Opera couldn't be found in the Software Manager.

Otherwise, i think i prefer it over Ubuntu for sure!
Will keep on tinkering with it to see how Firefox and Opera behave.
Chrome is doing pretty good (considering i only have 1G of RAM to play with).
 
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« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2012, 08:19:28 AM »

BTW, someone posted a comment their was no equivalent to the Windows Task Manager, there is - it is the "System Monitor", found under "Administration".
After reading this, some questions popped into my mind. I did a post here on DC asking for more details on the inner workings of ctrl-alt-del in Windows and other OSs: http://www.donationcoder....m/index.php?topic=31575.0
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« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2012, 08:20:48 AM »

@dantheman - you should be ok with 1GB. I'm running Mint on an old 2Ghz Core2-Duo laptop with 1 GB of RAM and 1 GB swap space and everything works just fine.  smiley
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« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2012, 07:15:58 PM »

So much for my experiment with Zorin!

For some reason, (just like Ubuntu too!)  tongue , my monitor dims (during more intensive work like installing updates) and comes back.

So, LMDE is back on and doing just fine.
No fading in and out monitors here (did it on laptop and desktop).

It's funny that LinuxMint is promoting Yahoo (their supporter) search via their pre-installed version of Firefox but they still have Google on their startpage.
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40hz
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« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2012, 09:22:03 PM »

For some reason, (just like Ubuntu too!)  tongue , my monitor dims (during more intensive work like installing updates) and comes back.


Check your power management settings and see if the "Dim when idle" monitor option is selected. If it is, turn it off. I never use it because it's flaky with some graphic adapters and the power savings it provides are minuscule for most people. I just set my screensaver to black out the monitor after 15 minutes and call it a day.
 Cool
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« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2012, 07:43:03 AM »

I've got LMDE on for now but will double check it 40hz!
Don't think it's the issue for it only happens on Ubuntu and it dims for a moment and comes back in a moment by itself (without doing anything on my part).

One issue with LMDE; i couldn't install Opera stable via Software Manager.
Got it from their site though.

Otherwise, LMDE is pretty quick (spiffy i would say!)  Thmbsup

For a non-geek like myself, it was a challenge to install it though (partitions etc.)
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Edvard
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« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2012, 08:11:33 PM »

* Edvard ropes the wayward calf and attempts to bring it back to topic...

Glad to see you're doing what Linux users the world over are discovering every day... Using what works for you.
But back to the question: in all that, did you feel like you were tinkering with an amusing hobby?  Or were you performing vital troubleshooting procedures in order to produce a usable workstation which would serve your computing needs for the foreseeable future?

That, I think is one of the dividing lines that must be crossed in order to differentiate between one or the other.  Seems so logical to say that Windows or Mac isn't a hobby, because they are production-ready systems that so many people actually do work on, for, and with.  Linux has classically been the domain of the tinkerer, power user, or the merely intellectually curious; yet, it has stood the test of production systems for years now.  Even now, a sizable chunk of the internet is powered by Linux or BSD (the "other" hobby OS),  and I am constantly absolutely boggled by the fact that people have absolutely no clue that their most trusted communication link (cell phone) could possibly be running on a hobby OS (android).

Like I said in my first response, it is what you make it.
I've used Linux in some incarnation for ~10 years now as my main, and now only OS, and it's as vital to me as any Windows or Mac would be to anyone else.  Granted, when my Linux breaks and I can't fix it, I go to the "community" instead of to the "experts", but really that's the biggest difference anymore.

8 more cents, and you'd have a dollar...
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