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Author Topic: Thoughts in remembrance of 911  (Read 12184 times)
IainB
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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2011, 08:34:41 AM »

@cmpm: That's a welcome and very positive approach, though I must admit, I had to think a bit before I could shift my paradigms to perceive what you describe as your perception, but I think I get it now, more or less.
If I may ask, does your perception of the meaning of the Caduceus affect you in your progress through life - or your own philosophy of life?

Where you say:
Quote
Mythology is an offshoot of truths and lies.
So I look beyond that, although it does offer insight.
Being based on other things, the mythological view is not the original intent.
But points to some definite facts that they are based on.
- it caused me to think of the Swastika.

Having been brought up on WW2 documentaries, I used to feel slightly sick at the sight of that emblem, until - years ago - I saw it painted very large on the side of a Thai Buddhist temple. After a little investigation, I realised that the symbol is named in Sanskrit as "svastika" or something, and represented extreme good luck and wellbeing. As I learned to speak Thai, I gathered that one theory on the etymology of "Sawat dee" (a polite formal greeting) was that it was derived from a corruption of "Svastik dee" ("dee" means literally "good"), so "Sawat dee" might be something of a tautological "Have a really good good luck day".
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wraith808
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« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2011, 09:34:03 AM »

Having been brought up on WW2 documentaries, I used to feel slightly sick at the sight of that emblem, until - years ago - I saw it painted very large on the side of a Thai Buddhist temple.

That would have been strange if you saw an actual swastika on the side of a buddhist temple.  The swastika itself is an aberration- a reversed symbol from the one actually used, so the symbol should have been a reversed swastika, i.e. the original symbol...
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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2011, 09:40:25 AM »

But it began with the staff of Moses

That's what I had always thought, based on this passage from the Bible. So I was going to say, I was way off, but honestly have no clue. I will read the links given and try to educate myself.


Quote
Numbers 21:4-9
New International Version (NIV)


The Bronze Snake
 4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[a] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

 8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.


Maybe just coincidence, and I linked them together in my mind.
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tomos
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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2011, 10:00:32 AM »

Having been brought up on WW2 documentaries, I used to feel slightly sick at the sight of that emblem, until - years ago - I saw it painted very large on the side of a Thai Buddhist temple.

That would have been strange if you saw an actual swastika on the side of a buddhist temple.  The swastika itself is an aberration- a reversed symbol from the one actually used, so the symbol should have been a reversed swastika, i.e. the original symbol...

well, the name swastika, is used for the original symbol and the nazi version [edit] am I nit-picking embarassed [/edit]

BTW I've seen swastikas (original) incorporated within Christian crosses, in medieval Irish Christian stone crosses, and tombstones. (Presumably it was also used elsewhere in Europe by Christians).
More info (wikipedia) Swastika
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 03:15:01 PM by tomos; Reason: [nit-picker] » Logged

Tom
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« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2011, 10:41:24 AM »

@IainB

Quote
If I may ask, does your perception of the meaning of the Caduceus affect you in your progress through life - or your own philosophy of life?

No not really, it's just a picture or representation of what we see in our mind's eye.
There are many.

You don't have to be a "Christian" to have Christ or the Spirit.
Christ is just a word, there are many that depict the same thing.
Buddhism ,Tao, Hindu, whatever name they give the spirit we all have.

Some think some have it and others don't.
Spirit/God/Christ-whatever you want to call it.
Not me, and that doesn't make me a 'Universalist' either.
Too many folks want to label you one thing or another.
And include or exclude you for their own ego.
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IainB
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« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2011, 09:15:06 PM »

At the risk of digressing and following a red whale...
That would have been strange if you saw an actual swastika on the side of a buddhist temple.  The swastika itself is an aberration- a reversed symbol from the one actually used, so the symbol should have been a reversed swastika, i.e. the original symbol...
Apparently not as strange as one might think:
I could always have been mistaken, of cour, but it certainly looked like a Nazi-style swastika to me at any rate. So, just for the record so that I could check up on my facts, I took a picture of it with my trusty Asahi Pentax SE mounted with a 900mm telephoto lens (sadly all now obsolete). The wat (temple) which had the huge swastika on its walls was a couple of kilometres away across a valley from the wat where I was standing in Changwat Suppanburi. When I had the photo developed, I checked up on it in the Enc. Britannica, and yes, it was the "bad" Nazi swastika, so my ignorance was reduced at that point. This was in 2001, so the photo would be in hardcopy form only, and it is in storage with my stuff 800 kilometres from where I am now living. If I get a chance to, I shall get the photo and scan it. This might be just what I needed to motivate me to scan all my old photos anyway, as I now have a scanner that can scan perfectly from negatives as well.

In any event, my wife (who is a Thai Buddhist) told me at the time that it was common to see swastikas in wats, most usually in Chinese quarters in Bangkok. She said it come in both orientations ("left" or "right"), and certainly you can see pictures of this on the internet if you google it - e.g., The Swastika Symbol in Buddhism
It's quite interesting actually. I had not done this before now. Just go to google.com and type "Buddhism and swastika" into the search field.

I did this after reading @tomos' comment:
well, the name swastika, is used for the original symbol and the nazi version [edit] am I nit-picking embarassed [/edit]

BTW I've seen swastikas (original) incorporated within Christian crosses, in medieval Irish Christian stone crosses, and tombstones. (Presumably it was also used elsewhere in Europe by Christians).
More info (wikipedia) Swastika
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 09:18:43 PM by IainB; Reason: Correction to @tomos quote. » Logged
IainB
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« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2011, 03:46:04 AM »

Found at: ]http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/12/high-fashion.html
- who linked to it here:
From: http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=111054

Quote
God bless you, every one.
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Renegade
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« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2011, 06:06:10 AM »



Interesting.

It's really no more distasteful than a lot of things though.

e.g. Here are some similarly distasteful images:



Back to buddy's shirt... Now, if it had "Never forget" in bold letters on it, you could easily sell that shirt in the US. Because then it would be paying homage as opposed to whatever it is now.



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nosh
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« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2011, 08:19:51 AM »

Really reaching here... where's the harm?

The pic's taken in southern India. The guy's probably a menial laborer working in the Gulf where he picked up the shirt. He would probably be dumb enough to wear it in Manhattan if someone told him it was OK. I wouldn't think too much about it, God knows he doesn't. smiley
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IainB
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« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2011, 08:25:02 AM »

@Renegade:
I'm sorry, I don't quite follow.
I think, from what you commented, that I may have been a tad too obscure.

In the story of "A Christmas Carol" written by Charles Dickens in 1843, there is a character called "Tiny Tim" (Timothy Cratchit) - a little crippled lad, who says:
Quote
"God bless us every one."
- which he offers as a blessing at Christmas dinner. (This in an impoverished family that would have been too poor to even afford to buy the food for the dinner, had not the story unfolded as it did.)

I am not sure whether you know this, but why Christmas (Christ mass) is celebrated is that it is the anniversary of the birth of Jesus Christ, who was a very special person - a prophet of God - in the eyes of Christians and the later Muslims.
The Christian belief is that Christ died as a vicarious sacrifice so that all of mankind's sins could be forgiven - throughout time, before, then, and in in the future - so that when we die our spirits can go before God, who will see and judge our worthiness to enter Heaven only on the good that we have done. The salvation of all was/is thus achieved - whether we want or expect it is irrelevant.

It is believed that, in this way, Christ's death was a sort of trade - that was the vicarious sacrifice - where the spilling of his blood was on our behalf, and brought about the birth of the New Man, as distinct from Adam. All men are believed to be descended from Adam (per Old Testament), and to have inherited his original sin. But Christ's death changed that. His death was a time to mourn, but also to rejoice in the new life (we live anew in and because of Christ) and in the forgiveness of sin that he had ensured for mankind.

When I saw the picture of the man in the 9-11 shirt, I was reminded of the estimated 3,000 approx. deaths in 911. I'm not sure whether that number includes the people killed on all four flights, but it does include some terrorists, apparently. It was not just the dead, but their surviving families that came to my mind. Families whose Christmas dinner tables may well have some empty seats in memory of their loved ones.
So, I took Tiny Tim's words, and changed them a bit:

I wrote:
Quote
God bless you, every one.
- instead of:
Quote
"God bless us every one."

And by that "YOU", I was embracing the dead of 911 - the innocent victims and their murderers - and all their families, and all the people who mourned the losses, and all the people who rejoiced in the losses (like the man in the shirt presumably may have done).
Because Christmas is a time for joy and forgiving. As Christ said "Forgive thine enemies."
I don't think that Christ would have intended for us to to hate a person or a group of people all down through time because of a dreadful crime committed over 2,000 years ago, or 65 years ago, or just 10 years ago.
I do think that he would have expected us to ask God to forgive the murderers though, just as he reputedly said on his crucifixion:
Quote
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
(It's ignorance, again.)

I was, therefore, making a prayer - and decidedly not making a sartorial comment or vouchsafing an opinion.
I am sorry if it offended you.
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tranglos
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« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2011, 10:47:39 AM »

Here are a couple of clips of how the world responded after that event:
  • Rejoicing: Fox News footage of Palestinians dancing and celebrating at the news of the fall of the twin towers on 911.

Didn't see this thread when it was posted. (New Year Resolution: read DC even more. Only good things can come from that!). I want to use my one post in this thread to say that world history did not start on 9-11, and when we reflect on certain events of that day and the days since, we do a great disservice to everyone involved if we pretend that it did. If history started on 9-11, then the footage of "dancing Palestinians" only serves to prove Palestinians are wicked people with an unexplained hatred for the US and the rest of the Western world. That, of course, is a horrible lie - exactly the kind of lie that gets whole nations cheering for murderous wars. ("Iraqi troops taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and dropping them on the hospital floor to die" was another, you probably remember that one.)

You won't see these lies unmasked on CNN or Fox (or even on BBC these days), but there's still that Internet thing. Not to justify or to sugarcoat, but to understand why: Palestinians celebrating 9/11 - a reply from The Electronic Intifada

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Renegade
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« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2011, 11:33:57 AM »

Really reaching here... where's the harm?

The pic's taken in southern India. The guy's probably a menial laborer working in the Gulf where he picked up the shirt. He would probably be dumb enough to wear it in Manhattan if someone told him it was OK. I wouldn't think too much about it, God knows he doesn't. smiley

I don't know where it was taken. I assumed that most people would know what the imagery represented though. The point about someone manufacturing it is a good point though. e.g. If you know that it represents, you obviously have a view point if you try to profit from it.

@IainB - No offense here. I simply find celebrations of mass death distasteful. I may have read into it more than I should have.

By the same token, I don't find swastikas offensive as for me whenever I see them, they don't represent Nazi Germany for me (usually). They're religious symbols that predate that.

@tranglos - I'm neutral on the Israel/Palestine issue. I just don't know enough about it to take a side. My only comment is that "killing people is bad".





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IainB
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« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2011, 10:21:36 AM »

The response of the British to 911 was to align themselves squarely alongside the US and send troops into Afghanistan and Iraq.
And look at this result: something really uplifting: Wherever You Are (Military Wives with Gareth Malone) Official Video
I've bought that single 3 times - and I suspect many people have done similarly.
Amazing. The Beeb must have made a mistake and done something positive for a change.
I don't even live in the UK - abandoned the place years ago, yet this song brought tears to my eyes.

Or, if that sort of thing is not to your taste, then maybe you might try to get your upliftment form here instead: Gotta Get Them Damn Jews In Order To Save the World
Hop on over to the Facebook link they give in that post - 100.000.000 person hate Israel and feel the lurve. You might like to report that Facebook page for racial and religious hatred, or like/friend it instead and feel like you are helping Palestine in their jihad (holy war).

Quite coincidentally, I started reading Hitler's Mein Kampf a week ago. That was because my daughter Lily had a project to do just before school closed for the Christmas holidays. It was to watch a movie - The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas - and then do some research on the Nazi death camps, and then write it up as project notes.

Lily knew it was about the Holocaust. I have told her a lot about Hitler and the death camps, and she is fascinated in how he could get the German people to do such despicable and horrifying acts. She understands that it seems to be something in us all - not just those "bad" Germans, that has the potential for this sort of psychopathic crime against "other" ("not us") humanity, and that we must not forget these lessons of history.

Well, we watched the film together on a Sunday night, then she went to bed, and on the Monday she was busy, head down, working on her report and doing the research on her laptop. In the afternoon, she came and asked her mother and I if we would like to hear her report, and she read it out to us. She had apparently found the film footage taken by Eisenhower's liberating American forces, and lots of other vid clips and notes about the inhumane treatment and torture of the Jews - some of which I had known about and some I might have forgotten (I saw a lot about it on the BBC TV in documentaries when I was a child).
   
And there she was, this fresh-faced and serious little girl reading it all out from her handwritten notes, in a matter-of-fact way, and even demonstrating with a baseball bat, some rope and her hands some of the torture the Nazis inflicted on the Jewish victims. For example, (and this is only a small part) by binding them in such a way as to painfully stretch and deform and eventually break their limbs in max prolongation of agony; their use of clubs with pointed nails sticking out of them, to club the backs of the victims so as to inflict max pain and max prolongation of agony.
Innocence observing evil's record. I was in tears as she was reading it out.

She asked, "Daddy, why did Hitler hate the Jews so much?", and I had to explain that it was all because the Jews engineered the crucifixion of Jesus as a common criminal, over 2,000 years ago. That many Christian sects and all true Muslims could not forgive them that.
I told her that probably the only way the Nazis could have done what they did would have been if they were able to perceive the Jews as being less than human - maybe "descended from pigs and apes" as the Koran so unequivocally puts it.

She is as mystified as I am when I tell her that there are people alive today who either deny the reality or the extent of the Holocaust, calling it a "myth" or try to ameliorate it , and there are others - including the appointed president of Iran, and other leaders or religious/clerical leaders and members of the Middle-Eastern Islamic countries who apparently still hope to see themselves carrying Hitler's "final solution" to a conclusion, to avenge the sin of Christ's crucifixion and fulfil Allah's command to exterminate the Jews for their sins.

But her question - "...why did Hitler hate the Jews so much?" - was what got me reading Mein Kampf. I wanted to be able to understand his rationale for what he did, and explain it to her. I told her that was why I was reading it, and that I had not actually wanted to read it, though I had been steeling myself for the time when I would have to.
I am reading this English translation, here, if you want to take a look: Adolf Hitler - Mein Kampf (James Murphy translation).pdf

I am finding myself quite fascinated by its cold, insidious horror. It seems reasonably lucid, coherent, and well-written.
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IainB
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« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2012, 11:22:59 AM »

@tranglos:
If history started on 9-11, then the footage of "dancing Palestinians" only serves to prove Palestinians are wicked people with an unexplained hatred for the US and the rest of the Western world. That, of course, is a horrible lie - exactly the kind of lie that gets whole nations cheering for murderous wars. ("Iraqi troops taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and dropping them on the hospital floor to die" was another, you probably remember that one.)

You won't see these lies unmasked on CNN or Fox (or even on BBC these days), but there's still that Internet thing. Not to justify or to sugarcoat, but to understand why: Palestinians celebrating 9/11 - a reply from The Electronic Intifada

Regardless of whether "history started on 9-11", it would be irrational (a non sequitur) to assert that:
Quote
...the footage of "dancing Palestinians" only serves to prove Palestinians are wicked people with an unexplained hatred for the US and the rest of the Western world.

Are you able to say exactly where such an assertion has been made? I don't think I saw it on any CNN/Fox videos, but I could have missed it, I suppose.
As far as I could see the news channels just played the thing without much comment. The dancing itself was verified/corroborated by other Western news media people on the ground (and one of whom happened to be a personal friend of mine - a photographer/cameraman), who confirmed that it was adults dancing for joy, not just children/youths (which seems clear in the video anyway).
So the link that you provide (which I found interesting) would seem to have been a reasonable if belated try at ameliorating the "911 dancing Palestinians" video, but apparently somewhat ambiguous/disingenuous.

The most that I could probably infer from that video is that the dancing Palestinians probably felt that at last Muslims (represented by Al Queda) had finally scored a serious "return blow" on the US - and on home ground too, in the heart of the US capitalist centre. That is, a "return blow" as payback for all the invasions, indignities, machinations, crimes and oppression that they might have perceived the US to have been responsible for in the Middle East.
If that was how they felt, then I would not be qualified to even attempt to dispute such a perception on their part - how could I know what it feels like to be them?
So, I wasn't terribly surprised by the "911 dancing Palestinians" video, for that reason.
I was rather saddened by it though.

So, I wasn't terribly surprised at videos and news reports of when people in the US seemed to be similarly cheered by news of the final killing of Al Queda's leader (Bin Laden) together with some of his henchmen.
I was rather saddened by it though.

Regardless of whose side you are on, it seems as though it is human nature to revel in an injury caused to, or the killing of, a perceived enemy.
Who are we to criticise other people for being "only human"?
But for a chance at birth, we might equally (say) have been born as Palestinians, or as Americans.

Wikipedia on Israel:

As a student of the Koran and things Islamic, I was interested to read that former House speaker Newt Gingrich in the US stated recently that:
Quote
He believed that “the Jewish people have the right to a state … Remember, there was no Palestine as a state. It was part of the Ottoman Empire.”

“I think that we’ve had an invented Palestinian people who are in fact Arabs,” Gingrich said, “and who were historically part of the Arab community.”

Though I didn't like what he said, I could kinda see what he was getting at, insofar as the Arabs could be said to have essentially invented Palestine as an obstacle to peace with Israel - in their own words, for example:
Quote
1959 Arab League resolution #1457.
"The Arab countries will not grant citizenship to applicants of Palestinian origin in order to prevent their assimilation into the host countries."

- and again:
Quote
1957, Horns, Syria - Arab Conference of Refugees.
"Any discussion of the refugee issue that does not promise the right to the annihilation of Israel will be deemed a desecration of the Arab nation and treason."

I was reading a post today that said:
Quote
Official, institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians is widespread in the Middle East. Where does this Apartheid take place, and what are the reasons behind it?

I followed it up and came across this YouTube vid - Apartheid in the Middle East, which seems to make the point and then hammer it home. It has all sorts of people contributing to it - Palestinian and Arab Muslims, Israelis, Lebanese, Arab in Israel, and more - and yours truly (being skeptical) made sure the facts check out. It seems to be honest/true.
To the end it refers to the above two Arab facts/quotes.

Interesting, eh?
I hadn't fully realised how much the Palestinian refugees had things stacked against them until I watched that vid.
Imagine how you and your family might feel if you were trapped in deliberate limbo like that.
Impossible to escape.
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IainB
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« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2014, 07:40:03 AM »

I am not an American, but I have a feeling of empathy with America, because it is the source where some great minds forged the American Constitution - arguably the first major - if not finest - product of a free people, articulating the vision of their religio-political ideology for democracy, equality, freedom and liberty, and itself based on the foundation stone of the Magna Carta.
Many people might no doubt consider that America has arguably got a long to way to go before it can be seen to have achieved that vision, and others might no doubt consider that America has arguably already strayed too far off course to be able to return to the original vector.

Be that as it may, we should not forget those war-dead innocents who have died because of deliberately murderous acts of war, from other powers - whatever the reason, though the reason in this case seems to be that they would challenge the articulated vision of the American religio-political ideology.
Nor should any freedom-loving people be afraid to stand up and honour such innocent dead, in remembrance.

A people that cannot bring itself to honour and remember the war dead - whether they be dead soldiers and participants, or (as in the case of 911) a few thousand dead, innocent civilians massacred all together on the same day - would arguably be a God-forsaken and spiritually bankrupt people without any moral compass whatsoever. This is why the names of the dead are precious, and are faithfully listed on war graves - similarly on the memorial at Ground Zero, and the names of the terrorists who also died are apparently included - "Lest we forget".

When I started this thread, I was impressed with the way in which the mostly thoughtful discussion proceeded to develop in directions that I could hardly have predicted - not that I wished to see it proceed in any particular direction - and reviewing the thread today, I think it does great credit to the contributors to the thread on the DC Forum.
When I started this thread, my motivation was essentially, as @JavaJones put it:
...To me the most important thing is that those who died on 9/11 are honored and remembered in positive ways.
- Oshyan

I had held back from making any comment in memoriam of 911 this year, as I felt that someone else might want to do it, and so I was very pleased when they did - with this kind, thoughtful and rather beautiful statement: (please note that the link below is broken as the original poster self-censored the entire thread)
Quote
[quote from: stephen66515]
13 Years
13 Years ago, billions of people around the world went to sleep, completely unaware that life as we knew it was about to change.

Hundreds of people packed their bags for destinations they would never reach.

Thousands fell asleep with a loved one they would never see again.

A moment almost everybody can tell you what they were doing when it happened.

A moment of unity.

A moment the world breathed a breath of sadness as one.

A moment of darkness.

A moment of change.

A moment that would embed itself into the history of nightmares.

So, take this moment, the one right now, while you are reading this...to love the ones you love.  Tell them.  Be with them. And never forget.
Nobody knows what tomorrow may bring, so live each day like it is your last and take everything as it comes.

________________________________

To me, those thoughts by @stephen66515 would seem to be well in line with:
...honored and remembered in positive ways.
- Oshyan

Apparently, @stephen66515 was not asked to delete the thread - he self-censored it because of a vitriolic response posted by another person, and he was afraid that it would start a flame war and disgrace the Forum, or something.
I have posted this here because I insist that I and others be allowed to see this genuine, creditable and incredibly positive post by @stephen66515 for what it is - something spontaneously affirming the human life and spirit and which touches us all - and I refuse to allow fascists or the PC brigade to deny people the opportunity to get some upliftment from the whole sorry episode of 911 whenever such an opportunity may arise, such as this.

Therefore, I would request that, if anyone of whatever religio-political ideological persuasion feels inclined to vomit their personal and peculiar negativism, vitriol, bile, hatred, theories or strongly-held opinions on this matter, or otherwise defecate on it in some way, could they please refrain from doing so here and do it in the Basement thread: 911 HATE - hate what you hate or what others like or dislike about it.

(Don't worry, they have a toilet down in the Basement too, if you can't seem to stem the flow once you get started, but please bring your own toilet paper.)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 08:24:25 AM by IainB » Logged
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